Maya Leaders - Pakal, Wat'ul Chatel, K'ab'al Xook

[evonannoredars]

Will be adding more eventually - waiting for my university's library system to email me some book chapters about Wat'ul Chatel/Aj Bʼolon Haabʼtal I currently can't access!

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Edit: Jump to Wat'ul Chatel (He of One Day Fire) and Wat'ul Chatel (He of Nine Works), Lady K'ab'al Xook

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K'INICH JANAAB PAKAL

Unique Ability
He of the Five Platform Buildings: Wonders in the capital provide +2 science per era. Changing capital on age transition does not downgrade the previous palace to a city hall. Palace can recieve two ageless upgrade projects.
Upgrade projects are scattered throughout the tech tree of the first era of the game (ie normally the antiquity tree, but will instead appear in other trees if you start a game in a different era) and will remain unlocked in later eras. Pakal has a unique palace model which overrides the civ-specific one. Upgrades are projects which add additional little buildings onto the palace terrace, either side of the main building. It will visually degrade in the next era if no longer a capital palace. There are six upgrade projects (despite the ability name, the title it referred to likely didn't count the observation tower):
- Observation Tower: +2 science per age and specialists in this city provide additional science.
- Council House (Sak Nuk Naah, House E): +2 influence per age and reduce the cost of suzeraining IPs within a certain radius.
- Painted House (House B): +2 culture per age, have two great work slots per age and immediately recieve one great work per age.
- Captive Slabs (~House A): +2 production per age, nearest commander recieves one promotion whenever a foreign city is captured.
- Courtyard (~House C): +2 happiness per age, +1 settlement limit per age and production towards settlers.
- Ceremonial Entrance (House D): +2 gold per age, reduced purchasing costs in connected settlements.

Attributes
• Scientific
• Wildcard

Agenda
K'uhul Ajaw: Increase Relationship by a Large Amount for the leader with the capital with the most wonders of this age. Decrease Relationship by a Small Amount for the leader with the capital with the least wonders of this age.

Starting Biases:
• None

 

[Ryansinbela]

We need some Mesoamerican leaders

 

[evonannoredars]

Source for most of this was A K'atun-Ending Commemoration of Ah-Bolon-Abta Wat'ul-Chatel from The Code of Kings: The Language of Seven Sacred Maya Temples and Tombs by Linda Schele and Peter Mathews. Wat'ul Chatel is a very interesting figure imo and one I'd love to see as a leader. Considering how differently he is presented on different stelae at Seibal and how he blended ancient Maya iconography and costuming of Seibal with elements of the contemporary Maya world and his foreign (to Seibal) origins, I think he's also very suitable for multiple personas.

The 'base game' persona reflects his arrival in Seibal as a foreigner one day before the end of the tenth bak'tun to re-establish the settlement. His visual design would be similar to Stela 10 and 11, with his characteristic moustache and hairstyle popular among the Terminal Classic nobility.
The 'DLC' persona reflects his continued assimilation into Seibal and consolidation in local power through rituals, visually modelled on the moustache-less and more Classic appearance on Stela 9.

The 10% era progress-related mechanics make more sense thematically for the base game persona, but is also incorporated into the DLC persona for thematic consistency between the leaders.

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WAT'UL CHATEL, HE OF ONE-DAY FIRE (BASE GAME)
Translation of the title Ah-Hun-K'in-K'ak' on stela 11 and 9 at Seibal, likely referring to his arrival at Seibal on 9.19.19.17.19, one day before the end of the bak'tun!

Unique Ability
Tenth Bak'tun: When there is less than 10% era progress remaining, +10 combat strength to ranged attacks. Settlements founded or conquered during this phase can be converted to cities for free and recieve 100% production towards constructing buildings and wonders.
I pretty often have games where, especially in antiquity, I'll be wanting to squeeze out a new city and try to get a unique quarter in it but just don't have enough time - this leader lets you do that! I think 100% production towards is the same as production is halved, correct me if I'm wrong. Militaristic aspect isn't specifically connected - as far as I can tell, he arrived peacefully, although Seibal was involved in wartime politics generally.

Attributes
• Militaristic
• Expansionist

Agenda
Ah Hun K'in K'ak': Increase relationship by a medium amount for leaders at or above the settlement limit. Decrease relationship for leaders below the settlement by an amount that scales with era progress.
Agenda name is just the Maya title, very original of me, I know.

Starting Biases:
• None

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WAT'UL CHATEL, HE OF NINE WORKS (PERSONA)
Translation of his primary title/name Ah-Bolon-Abta on multiple stelae at Seibal

Unique Ability
Witnessed by Lords: For the first 10% of an era, gain a unique endeavour called 'Scattering of Drops' that grants influence and, if supported, +1 settlement limit. Can be performed simultaneously but only once per leader. Afterwards, gain a unique endeavour called 'Vision Serpent' which doubles the effects of other ongoing endeavours with the leader.
Scattering of Drops is cheap to initiate but expensive to support, so you'd only likely get a few extra settlement limit increases. Not included in the description (to avoid it being too long) is that Scattering of Drops also increases relationships significantly more than regular endeavours.
First endeavour refers to a ritual commemorated on Stela 11, where Lords from Multul/Tikal (or possibly Ixlu), Kan/Kalak'mul and Nal/Motul de San Jose partook in a 'scattering of drops' (burning things in a brazier) to reinforce friendships and alliances. Second one refers to a ritual on Stela 9, where Wat'ul 'grasped' a vision serpent in a ritual attended by a Lord from Lakamtun.

Attributes
• Diplomatic
• Expansionist
I think personas should at least have one attribute in common to make the leader somewhat thematically consistent and justify their existence (as opposed to making a separate leader).

Agenda
Ah Bolon Abta: Increase relationship by a medium amount for the leader who has initiated or supported the most endeavours this era. Decrease Relationship by a Small Amount for the leader with who has initiated or supported the least endeavours this era.
Just the Maya title again.

Starting Biases:
• None

 

[Ryansinbela]

Pretty ambitious

 

[Ryansinbela]

what would their mementos be

 

[evonannoredars]

what would their mementos be

Ooh, hadn't thought about those as I've never played with mementos but that'd be fun to design too:

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Pakal
Jade Mask - Visage and portraiture: Recieve a wildcard attribute point upon completing a leader-specific narrative event (Wildcard)
Description in reference to 'The Importance of Visage, Facial Treatment, and Idiosyncratic Traits in Maya Royal Portraiture during the Reign of K’inich Janaab’ Pakal of Palenque, 615– 683 CE', a very good chapter.
Oval Palace Tablet - Ancestral inheritance: Adjacency bonus on palace doubled per era if capital has not been changed (Wildcard)
Sarcophagus Lid - Cosmic rebirth: Recieve science whenever a unit dies (Scientific)
Alternative description: 'not an astronaut'

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Wat'ul, One-Day Fire
Palanquin - They arrived / four palanquin lords: First settlement founded in the last 10% of an era gains 4 free population (Expansionist)
Reference to inscription describing Wat'uls arrival
Waterlily Blossom - Fish-nibbled: +2 food per era on wet tiles (Expansionist)
Stela 11 has a lot of waterlily/wet imagery
Ceremonial Bar - Serpentine cosmic monster: +2 combat strength per crisis phase (Militaristic)
Ceremonial bar on Stela 10, resembling the cosmic monster but with serpentine attributes

Wat'ul, Nine Works
Maize Leaves - Manifesting the Maize god: Supported endeavours provide +1 food per era to farms (Expansionist)
Maize god imagery on stela 9
Jaguar Boots - Morningstar in the jaguar constellation: Settlements founded during the first 10% of an era recieve +5 influence per era (Expansionist)
Wat'ul wears Jaguar-like boots on Stela 8, which has astronomical connections
Five Stelae - Cosmological coordination: Diplomatic endeavours are 50% cheaper when era progress % is a multiple of 5 (Diplomatic)
Reference to all the stelae generally and the timed diplomatic events they represent

 

[MutilationWave]

These are very well thought out, thanks for the interesting read. Hopefully modding tools come out at some point that can make your vision a reality. I'm obsessed with Mayan history, Tikal is my favorite place I've ever had the luck to visit.

 

[evonannoredars]

These are very well thought out, thanks for the interesting read. Hopefully modding tools come out at some point that can make your vision a reality. I'm obsessed with Mayan history, Tikal is my favorite place I've ever had the luck to visit.

Cheers! Yeah I'm currently doing an archaeology masters hoping to specialise in the Maya, although I haven't had the chance to visit any mesoamerican sites yet - did see the Yaxchilan lintels in the British museum last week though, which was very exciting because I love those lintels (I'm planning a Lady Kabal Xook leader next) and didn't know they were there haha

 

[MutilationWave]

I have an interesting story about Guatemala. I'm not trying to scare you, but if you go it's a good idea to keep a hundred American dollars in 20s in your wallet and another couple hundred hidden in your sock or similar. It's also a good idea to be with a guide if your Spanish isn't great (mine is trash). I haven't been there since 2016 but when I was there it was extremely corrupt. It's a good idea to read up on modern history especially the civil war in the 1990s.

This may have changed, but when I was there the police controlled the military. Eight of us were stopped by a senior police officer, we were two Guatemalans and six Americans in a van. Next thing I know there are three kids that looked about 16 years old in army fatigues with AK47s pulling up. The officer took our passports and made us sweat, but the Guatemalan dudes told him to kick rocks and he gave the passports back and let us go without a bribe. But if you get into any problems there some American 20s will fix the problems.

Of course there are Mayan ruins to visit elsewhere but I would not miss Tikal if I were you. We crossed the border from Belize on foot and met up with our guides.

 

[evonannoredars]

Bunch of different sources for this one, a major one is Reading Maya Art (Stone and Zender) which goes into the ritualistic aspects depicted.

Lady K'ab'al Xook is probably one of my fav female Maya figures as she has a really unique prominent presence (the Wikipedia article about her is a good summary). She appears in three lintels (24-26) in significant militaristic bloodletting rituals, possibly appearing twice in lintel 25, once in human form and again emerging from the mouth of a two-headed centipede transformed into a warrior-goddess - there are other interpretations who the second figure is, although I find this one most convincing as it's supported by the text on the lintel (source). Subsequently I wanted to have a leader themed around bloodletting and sacrifice, being able to exchange culture and militaristic powers in both directions.

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LADY K'AB'AL XOOK

Unique Ability
Bloodletting Ritual: Gain a unique project called 'Ch'ahb' which unresearches a random researched civic, but grants xp to the nearest commander proportional to the civic cost. Your units that die grant culture per era proportional to their remaining health.
Can only run if there are commanders nearby and there are researched civics. Unresearching a civic removes policy cards, access to buildable wonders and other effects. One-time bonuses of civics won't be triggered again when you re-research them. The second part of the ability might sound weak - a unit that dies with like 3 hp left will provide very little culture - until you factor in that you can kill your own units when they're at max health!

Attributes
• Cultural
• Militaristic

Agenda
[TBC]: Increase relationship by a large amount for the leader whose commanders have taken the most damage. Decrease relationship by a medium amount for the leader whose commanders have taken the least damage.
Having trouble with transliterating the text I want to use for the agenda name so I'm waiting on an email reply for help with that.

Starting Biases:
• None

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Mementos:
Thorn-Laden Rope - It is her image in penance: Recieve culture whenever a unit dies to an enemy unit (Cultural)
Obsidian Bloodletter - She is the likeness of Lady Yohl: Recieve a militaristic attribute point upon researching future civics or techs (Militaristic)
Stingray Spine - She is the pillar before the waters at pa'chan: Units that die in water tiles deal reciprocal damage to adjacent units (Militaristic)
All bloodletting instruments Lady K'ab'al Xook is shown having or using. First description is from lintel 24, second two are both from lintel 25.

 

[evonannoredars]

I have an interesting story about Guatemala. I'm not trying to scare you, but if you go it's a good idea to keep a hundred American dollars in 20s in your wallet and another couple hundred hidden in your sock or similar. It's also a good idea to be with a guide if your Spanish isn't great (mine is trash). I haven't been there since 2016 but when I was there it was extremely corrupt. It's a good idea to read up on modern history especially the civil war in the 1990s.

This may have changed, but when I was there the police controlled the military. Eight of us were stopped by a senior police officer, we were two Guatemalans and six Americans in a van. Next thing I know there are three kids that looked about 16 years old in army fatigues with AK47s pulling up. The officer took our passports and made us sweat, but the Guatemalan dudes told him to kick rocks and he gave the passports back and let us go without a bribe. But if you get into any problems there some American 20s will fix the problems.

Of course there are Mayan ruins to visit elsewhere but I would not miss Tikal if I were you. We crossed the border from Belize on foot and met up with our guides.

Oof, good to know!

 

[Ryansinbela]

Someone needs to mod this when workshop support gets added

 

[Archanist]

Re: Modding, I can give some ideas on how easy it would be to implement these ideas right now. Hopefully the ones I think are hard/impossible to do are actually doable. I'm hoping the modding community gets more tools and knowledge because Wat'ul Chatel's mechanics sound so fun to play with.

Unique Ability
He of the Five Platform Buildings: Wonders in the capital provide +2 science per era. Changing capital on age transition does not downgrade the previous palace to a city hall. Palace can recieve two ageless upgrade projects.
Upgrade projects are scattered throughout the tech tree of the first era of the game (ie normally the antiquity tree, but will instead appear in other trees if you start a game in a different era) and will remain unlocked in later eras. Pakal has a unique palace model which overrides the civ-specific one. Upgrades are projects which add additional little buildings onto the palace terrace, either side of the main building. It will visually degrade in the next era if no longer a capital palace. There are six upgrade projects (despite the ability name, the title it referred to likely didn't count the observation tower):
- Observation Tower: +2 science per age and specialists in this city provide additional science.
- Council House (Sak Nuk Naah, House E): +2 influence per age and reduce the cost of suzeraining IPs within a certain radius.
- Painted House (House B): +2 culture per age, have two great work slots per age and immediately recieve one great work per age.
- Captive Slabs (~House A): +2 production per age, nearest commander recieves one promotion whenever a foreign city is captured.
- Courtyard (~House C): +2 happiness per age, +1 settlement limit per age and production towards settlers.
- Ceremonial Entrance (House D): +2 gold per age, reduced purchasing costs in connected settlements.

Agenda
K'uhul Ajaw: Increase Relationship by a Large Amount for the leader with the capital with the most wonders of this age. Decrease Relationship by a Small Amount for the leader with the capital with the least wonders of this age.

Wonders in the capital provide +2 Science per era: Easy
Changing capital on age transition does not downgrade the previous palace to a city hall: Hard, but there is a workaround (I do something similar with one of my modded civs). There's gonna be a lot of work going through all the possible Civ, Civic, Traditions, and Narrative Event effects to make sure it works well.
Palace can receive two ageless upgrade projects: I think this is possible as a project(minus the visuals). The only hard ones to implement if so are the Captive Slabs, since I don't know of a way to choose a specific commander to promote, and the Council House, since you can't tell how far an IP is from your capital.

WAT'UL CHATEL, HE OF ONE-DAY FIRE (BASE GAME)

Unique Ability
Tenth Bak'tun: When there is less than 10% era progress remaining, +10 combat strength to ranged attacks. Settlements founded or conquered during this phase can be converted to cities for free and recieve 100% production towards constructing buildings and wonders.

Agenda
Ah Hun K'in K'ak': Increase relationship by a medium amount for leaders at or above the settlement limit. Decrease relationship for leaders below the settlement by an amount that scales with era progress.

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WAT'UL CHATEL, HE OF NINE WORKS (PERSONA)
Translation of his primary title/name Ah-Bolon-Abta on multiple stelae at Seibal

Unique Ability
Witnessed by Lords: For the first 10% of an era, gain a unique endeavour called 'Scattering of Drops' that grants influence and, if supported, +1 settlement limit. Can be performed simultaneously but only once per leader. Afterwards, gain a unique endeavour called 'Vision Serpent' which doubles the effects of other ongoing endeavours with the leader.

Agenda
Ah Bolon Abta: Increase relationship by a medium amount for the leader who has initiated or supported the most endeavours this era. Decrease Relationship by a Small Amount for the leader with who has initiated or supported the least endeavours this era.

Era % - Afaik there's no way to get this atm. Most other effects are possible though.
Unique Endeavors - I think they're hardcoded? I remember a modder having trouble creating a new endeavor and struggled with it (so maybe our current ones are hardcoded). However, the effects sound possible if we can get past this hurdle.

Below, red is my comments

Pakal

Jade Mask - Visage and portraiture: Recieve a wildcard attribute point upon completing a leader-specific narrative event (Wildcard) - Doable easily (will take a while, but it's straightforward).
Oval Palace Tablet - Ancestral inheritance: Adjacency bonus on palace doubled per era if capital has not been changed (Wildcard) - Not sure if possible
Sarcophagus Lid - Cosmic rebirth: Recieve science whenever a unit dies (Scientific) - Not possible, but afaik you can have science per combat

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Wat'ul, One-Day Fire
Palanquin - They arrived / four palanquin lords: First settlement founded in the last 10% of an era gains 4 free population (Expansionist) - Not possible
Waterlily Blossom - Fish-nibbled: +2 food per era on wet tiles (Expansionist) - Easy
Ceremonial Bar - Serpentine cosmic monster: +2 combat strength per crisis phase (Militaristic) - Workaround possible, can make Crisis Policies give combat strength instead

Wat'ul, Nine Works
Maize Leaves - Manifesting the Maize god: Supported endeavours provide +1 food per era to farms (Expansionist) - Easy
Jaguar Boots - Morningstar in the jaguar constellation: Settlements founded during the first 10% of an era recieve +5 influence per era (Expansionist) - Era % problem
Five Stelae - Cosmological coordination: Diplomatic endeavours are 50% cheaper when era progress % is a multiple of 5 (Diplomatic) - Era % problem

 

[evonannoredars]

Re: Modding, I can give some ideas on how easy it would be to implement these ideas right now. Hopefully the ones I think are hard/impossible to do are actually doable. I'm hoping the modding community gets more tools and knowledge because Wat'ul Chatel's mechanics sound so fun to play with.

Wonders in the capital provide +2 Science per era: Easy
Changing capital on age transition does not downgrade the previous palace to a city hall: Hard, but there is a workaround (I do something similar with one of my modded civs). There's gonna be a lot of work going through all the possible Civ, Civic, Traditions, and Narrative Event effects to make sure it works well.
Palace can receive two ageless upgrade projects: I think this is possible as a project(minus the visuals). The only hard ones to implement if so are the Captive Slabs, since I don't know of a way to choose a specific commander to promote, and the Council House, since you can't tell how far an IP is from your capital.

Era % - Afaik there's no way to get this atm. Most other effects are possible though.
Unique Endeavors - I think they're hardcoded? I remember a modder having trouble creating a new endeavor and struggled with it (so maybe our current ones are hardcoded). However, the effects sound possible if we can get past this hurdle.

Below, red is my comments

v interesting, thank you! Tricky bit deffo is that while I like designing civs/leaders and it'd be fun to see them modded, I have no idea what is or isn't possible to implement lol (for now at least). While little details could def be altered, aye it'd be a shame to not be able to use Wat'ul Chatel's era progress mechanics. I could always try n design mechanically simpler civs/leaders, but where would the fun in that be

With the era progress stuff, would it be possible to figure out the last and first 10% through other means? Last 10% would correspond to the last crisis phase and first 10% should usually be the same turn length. And wrt Pakal's palace, is it possible to use multiple models in conjunction or stitch bits of existing models together?

 

[Archanist]

v interesting, thank you! Tricky bit deffo is that while I like designing civs/leaders and it'd be fun to see them modded, I have no idea what is or isn't possible to implement lol (for now at least). While little details could def be altered, aye it'd be a shame to not be able to use Wat'ul Chatel's era progress mechanics. I could always try n design mechanically simpler civs/leaders, but where would the fun in that be

IMO the best and fun ideas come when you don't know what's mechanically possible. The fun part is trying to get the ideas to work.

With the era progress stuff, would it be possible to figure out the last and first 10% through other means? Last 10% would correspond to the last crisis phase and first 10% should usually be the same turn length. And wrt Pakal's palace, is it possible to use multiple models in conjunction or stitch bits of existing models together?

Last 10%, the leader can have a special trait where they get a special Crisis policy (and maybe an extra Crisis slot so the player can slot it in). Not sure what the AI can do though. For the first 10%, it could be a timer for the first x turns of the age. However, that will usually only work on yields and I'm not sure if the exact effects you mentioned are possible.

Pakal's palace, currently it's only possible to take models that already exist in the game. I'm not sure if it's possible to manipulate them to be together.

 

[evonannoredars]

IMO the best and fun ideas come when you don't know what's mechanically possible. The fun part is trying to get the ideas to work.

Last 10%, the leader can have a special trait where they get a special Crisis policy (and maybe an extra Crisis slot so the player can slot it in). Not sure what the AI can do though. For the first 10%, it could be a timer for the first x turns of the age. However, that will usually only work on yields and I'm not sure if the exact effects you mentioned are possible.

Pakal's palace, currently it's only possible to take models that already exist in the game. I'm not sure if it's possible to manipulate them to be together.

I see, thank you!

 

[sTAPler27]

I get that the game is catering to a primarily Anglo-American, European and even East Asian demographic but I would kill for more Native American representation, especially mesoamerican representation. These are all quality concepts and I really hope the devs are inspired by them to add more mesoamerican content