# Mayan Mayhem: A Huge Deity Histographic

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Spoonwood, Dec 3, 2009.

1. ### SpoonwoodGrand Philosopher

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EMan,

If I understand you correctly then, you do the calculations for the full 21 squares in the fat X first. Then, if any tiles overlap with another city you keep the overlapping tiles for the higher scoring city, and re-do the calculations for the lower scoring city without those overlapping tiles.

For example, were we to evaluate New Salonika and 251 in the 1st screenshot of post 94, we would first notice New Salonika as having 1 center, 6 coasts, 2 seas, 1 plains cow, 4 grass, and 6 plains. From what you've written above, it seems you would assign a value of +0.50 to a plains cow, since it has 5 food fully railroaded... and your numbers seem to have a base of 4 food when fully railroaded and increase or decrease by .5 for each food over or under 4 food respectively (except for sea squares, and city centers). So, New Salonika has a value of

((2+.5-3-6-1.5)/20)=-.40

With a plains sugar having the same value as a grassland, 190 keeper actually, if I did the calculations correctly the same value as New Salonika, but I digress.

251 has 1 center, 4 grass, 1 plains cow, and 15 plains. So, it has a value of approximately

((.5-1.5-7.5)/21)=-.40476... so it doesn't make the cut. But, supposing for a moment, just to try and understand your system, we had the threshold value at -0.50. Then, since 251 comes in weaker than New Salonika the overlapping tiles will get assigned New Salonika implying that 251 loses 2 grass, 1 plains cow, and 4 plains. Thus, supposing it didn't overlap with any other cities. So, it has 1 center, and 11 plains giving a value of approximately

((-1.5-5.5)/14)=-.42857...

Would you do the calculations that way? What did I miss?

2. ### SpoonwoodGrand Philosopher

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Also, if I say wanted to convert your system into using just natural numbers (I can see why you used positive and negative numbers, since you have grassland as the base) except for the division part, if I understand it correctly you would

1. Assign a value of 1 to any city center.

2. Assign a value of 6 to any sea square.

3. For any other tiles, figure out how much food the square will have when it 1. has a harbor or 2. comes as fully irrigated and railroaded. Then you'd assign that number to the tile. So, mountains/volcanos have a value of 0, hills a value of 1, regular coasts a value of 2, regular plains a value of 3, regular grassland a value of 4, plains cows a value of 5, flood plains/grassland cows/grassland wheats a value of 6, and whatever flood plain wheats come out to.

So, New Salonika discussed above with 1 center (1), 6 coast (2 each), 2 sea squares (6 each), 1 plains cow (5), 4 grassland (4 each), 6 plains (3 each) would have a value of

((1+12+12+5+16+18)/20)=3.2. So, if I haven't lost anything in your system by converting your system into one with natural numbers, the threshold value comes as 3.2. Does that seem correct?

I think I can see why you've weighted the city center and sea square as you have. A lower value on a city center than the food it gives you helps you spread your cities out, and sea squares, of course, don't take tiles away from the domination limit.

3. ### StoertebekerWarlord

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A very interesting writeup, Spoonwood.

By the way: Will you try to beat Moonsingers topscore one day? (Not possible on a pangea map, I know.) With heavy using of the Emsworth-Agreement and a nice map, that should be possible, shouldn't it?

4. ### Calison time

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I am quite sure that Moonsinger didn't do anything differently. It will be hard to beat her score in any case.

5. ### StoertebekerWarlord

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Hm. If so, she must have been very careful to hide that in her submitted savegames. Especially the one at 0 ad - which would seem to me like the golden age of Emsworth Agreements - shows lots of roads.

That's beyond question.

Okay, but that's threadnapping. Let's see what Spoonwood can do to improve our all knowledge of game mechanics so that one day, someone will be able to hit the 90.000.

By the way: I'm a little confused about the setting of the ongoing game, Spoonwood. You wrote something about a pangea map, with about 3800 domlimit. But the minimap looks lake an archipel.

6. ### Calison time

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Spoonwood is using an old thread, which started with a deity game. but now he uses it for this SID game. So that might cause the confusion.

7. ### StoertebekerWarlord

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Nono. That's perfectly clear. One deity game finished with hurray on the second page.

I'm talking about this one (Post 31 - after that I haven't found another post indicating that he started a new game):

3858 seems to be domination limit. But that cannot be the ongoing game because the ongoing looks like an archipelago and archipelagos usually have much higher domination limits.

8. ### SpoonwoodGrand Philosopher

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I agree with Storetebeker if she did use any such agreements (note I'm NOT putting any free money into the economy), she definitely hid it very well in the 0 AD save. She has 200+ gpt going to Korea, and she also exports ivory and gems to Korea. She also exports ivory to Germany. So, I don't see any evidence she used it in her 88k game. That said, there does exist a possibility that she still might have used it later (I doubt it)... I don't know if anyone can determine this for certain except for her (if she remembered and would oblige us in this regard... I don't believe she's visited these forums much at all in the past few years), or the HoF staff. From the notes she left on some game... which I believe does come as her 88k game as the details seem to match what the saves tell us, she had a very high domination limit, and CrPViewer tells us she had already reached the domination limit by at about 820. I also found this thread. She might have used her banking system, though I don't know.

That all said, if anyone wants a higher scoring game than Moonsinger, it isn't in principle hard at all. Just not for the HoF.

I have no aspirations to top Moonsinger's game at any point in time really.

This "3858, Huge, Warm, Wet, 5 billion, Pangea." refers to a Sid pangea game with the Maya back at the beginning of this year, quit playing for a while, and decided I'd completely abandon a few months ago after looking at it again. The current game comes as Huge, Warm, Wet, 5 billion (best for milking), archipelago with a domination limit of 4432. I don't know if playing against 15 opponents as I have comes as all that great of an idea... but since it increases the number of luxuries/resources available I think it ensures the greatest possibility for extra resources/luxuries to become available. This might not even come as a problem with 8 opponents, but Lord Emsworth's suggestion of keeping multiple tribes around for war happiness perhaps suggests you want more than the minimum.... perhaps 12 opponents or something like that comes as the best way to go, I don't know.

The disconnect-reconnect trick might have more potential if you can correctly estimate how much force to take a bunch of cities the turn you immediately start a war, especially once you or the target AI can railroad their territory. Perhaps, even, investigating cities before the war might prove worth it here. You basically combine an RoP with forcing them to declare on you. Then again, I'm not so sure that this would really pick things up, because of the sheer number of units you face. Also, I have another trick up my sleeve, which even though I haven't executed yet... and don't know how much upside it has exactly, I discussed in post 17 here.

On the current turn after wiping Carthage off their home continent (with 2 cities still on islands), I've spent some time using EMan's system... converted to natural numbers... to evaluate my city sites.

9. ### StoertebekerWarlord

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Who, if not you? You've got the skill, you already showed the patience to finish a milkrun ... and you're hanging around here since quite some time, always referring to her skill - it's time to claim the throne.

I don't want to be disrespectful: But I don't think that Moonsinger played her opening optimally. I'm sure one could save at least 5 or even 10 turns on the way to the domination limit by a really well planned start - that's 2% more points. And at least 10 or 20 turns by using the disconnecting-thing (I'm used to call it the Emsworth Agreement - am I wrong about that naming?) properly (20 turns are another 4%). You get more money, ealier and more easily, you'd already have all your units in place before attacking, you'd have every opponent distracted and losing his units to fight distant AI's.

Okay, you'd still need a very, very good map. Not only a good start and a high domination value, but also some opponents on the same continent, preferably someone who builds the pyramids ... but okay. That's luck.

Ah, okay. Maybe you should edit in a little note when the new game started... like this, it's quite confusing.

Do you know the formula by which number of ressources and tribes are connected? Intuitively, I'd say it's the opposite - the more space, the higher the probability of trading opportunities. At least it shouldn't be the other way around - should it?

You could test this with an old save: Form an alliance against an opponent that's on the other side of the front and investigate their cities before and after the first turn of war. I'm quite sure that the AI has sort of a simple system which makes it easy to estimate how many defenders they keep in cities. I'd be surprised if they'd keep more than 4 or 5 defenders in a "normal" size 12 city. (More in capitals, I suppose, maybe more in a wonder city... .)

Hm. You'd need strong defenders for that. But as Civ, up until the IA favours attackers, I don't believe that this would have a great impact.

Phew. Seems like quite some work. Especially, since the numbers depend on the kind of map you have - Moonsinger seemed to have a lot of grassland tiles in her 88K game. If you have a good map like that, your 3.2 might be too low for an optimal overall use of cities and you'll find yourself all cities hitting a strict value, but still some unused grasslands. Of course it's still useful to have a system to value the cities. And Eman's approach seems reasonable.
But actually: I don't think it's worth to dedicate too much effort in those relocating things: more sea, more grasslands and fewer mountains are important. A not too high number of overlapping tiles - of course. But I don't believe that you can gain more than a few hundred points in total score by relocating.

10. ### SpoonwoodGrand Philosopher

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Thanks for the vote of confidence and praise Stoertebeker, but I will say that I place more on finishing a Sid histographic game, or any histographic game than having the highest scoring one. A lower scoring standard Sid histographic, for example, could have a better map and have gotten played better than a Huge one, but still score a lot less than a Huge one.

With the disconnect-reconnect, which I prefer over the term "Emsworth agreement", which I always think of referring to this thread, you also really want Leo's. To get a glimpse of the possible advantages see the upcoming update and my Large Sid game with China. I'll say that I had 11 opponents, or whatever the max comes as on a large map, an 80% map, only 6 native cities, the first war started a little after the AIs learned Invention, I captured Leo's in my first war, and I didn't even bother to learn Military Tradition by the end of the game. Babylon learned Military Tradition just about when I had almost finished them off, but it seemed pointless to pick it up, as I just had to land and destroy Carthage after that. This won't exactly scale up to a Huge 60% archipelago map, but it gives you an idea of it's power with Leo's early on.

Thing comes as if you have Leo's early (maybe try and build it yourself?)... if you short-rush to spears/explorers for horse-knights or horse-calvary every turn in 10 shield cities, you can spend 120 gold for the horse part, and then 60 or 75 more gold for the upgrade to a knight or calvary if you want one of those every single turn. But, I'm not sure if that's the best plan for your money. You can also try and no doubt do well with other plans, such as I described earlier in this thread in this paragraph:

Until a near optimal plan gets figured out for spending your cash with the disconnect-reconnect, I don't really have a feel for how well things could go, and what you want to do to really play this thing out extremely well.

Also, the number of opponents desired also needs figured out... and no doubt there exists some difference in terms of how much money you'll get from the AIs if you have 8 opponents vs. 12 vs. 15, since the AIs will have different sized empires (8 might work out better in this regard since the AIs have larger empires... but with scarcer resources and luxuries, that might mean fewer AIs to get gold from in the first place).

I haven't done this myself, and I've just taken the words of others (I think Sirpleb), but if you want to see the effect of the number of resources and luxuries available you might compare various HoF games to see how many total luxuries/resources came as available, such as the maps on this table, to see 15 vs. 8 see here, Calis's game had 10, nerovats had 12.

They do seem to have some sort of formula for "most" cities. However, they also often have many more units in border cities. When attacking "normally", i. e. without an RoP in place before attacking them, you just make sure you have a large stack (say 12 knights perhaps) and go. But, if you really want to maximize what an RoP can do for you, you need a little more force than you might need to take the city *if* you can figure out how many units they have defending the city, but you don't want too many units in one spot, since that takes units away from other spots. It doesn't seem hard to attack only with "overwhelming force" if you play carefully enough. But, to stack your units with "just overwhelming force" in multiple places, I don't know how to do at this point, at least.

No. You need a veteran infantry, and an artillery inside a fortress.

I don't know the potential gains of relocating. Moonsinger said of her game that she could have had 90k in her game actually, but she messed things up (I don't know how)... and I'm not even sure that wasn't just a way to motivate others to try and beat her game. EMan would probably have a better gauge on the potential gains or relocating than I would.

Oh... and will we see you sumbit a game to the HoF of some sort, any sort here by you soon here Stoertebeker?

11. ### StoertebekerWarlord

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Of course. It would even be more satisfying to play the XOTM's, because there real skill comes to shine. And not those lucky maps and dirty tricks, that are used for the HoF. But unfortunately, even if I know that those games promise more fun, more insights and that they are more challenging, I always think about how one could ever beat those 88K. Sad but true. It's kind of a dark fascination.

Yes, I can imagine that: It gives you a huge amount of money by a time where money really matters.

I believe it would be a better idea to completely rush those units in some distant 1-shield-cities (although you'd need barracks there) and just shortrush in the 10-shield-towns every second turn. One would have to calculate that properly at some point. But saving 40 Gold every turn seems well worth buying a barrack here and there.

Yes. But it's good to know that an optimal solution exists - we just have to figure it out.

Yes, I think you're right. I had a look at 2 Maps (your and Tones huge deity finishs) and counted ressources: It seems, that available ressources increase proportionally to the number of tribes. (I counted 33 luxuries and 47 strategic ressources in Tones game with 8 Opponents, compared to 60 and 97 in yours (with 15)- won't guarantee for exact numbers, but the direction is clear).

Until now, I always thought that 8 opponents would be the "right" number. You made me rethink and coming to the following picture:

+ higher propability of trades (as with fewer opponents, chances for some having a lot and some lacking any trading possibilities are higher)
+ trades will be possible earlier (as ressources will be connected earlier and connections will be made earlier)
(+) the world will be populated earlier (I lack the experience here: Maybe you'll see at least size 12 cities all around the world anyway, when starting to go to war?)
+ more possibilities to send AI's in wars against each other
+ tighter empires to conquer - worth a lot when using disconnections with peace and RoP tied together, as one can hope to destroy an opponent in a few turns without worrying too much about flips, discontent citizens and their stack of doom (which is hopefully tied up in foreign territory ... .

(-) those positive effects might be countered by lower AI cash and slower techpace - as AI cities will be more productive and produce much more units they'd have to upkeep. Again, I lack the experience to verify this. But your current game looks quite impressive in both terms - so hopefully I'm wrong.
- the chance that important AI's lack a key ressource, are lower
- one will lack the room for expansion and might get killed very early.

So it seems to me like a gamble: If the start succeeds and one is able to get enough GPT to get the first deals running, more opponents should serve one well. Yet another point where one could hope to benefit in comparison to Moonsinger.

The war happiness issue that you mentioned earlier, doesn't seem too important in regard of how many opponents to choose: You need 4 AI dows to get everyone happy, don't you? If you let live 4 out of 8 or 4 out of 15 ... that doesn't seem to make a big difference, does it?

Yes, but that's something one could figure out quite easily, can't we?

I have to rely on theory. That tells me that every city, that uses all of it's tiles and is all happy - will get all the points for territory and all the points for happy people. That's 3 points per tile - regardless if it's a mountain or a cow an a grassland. If you pick another grassland instead of a mountain, that's 2 additional points.

Let's suppose that you've got a good feeling for sea locations and are already using most of the grasslands.
If you can gain, in avarage 3 FPT in - let's say - 100 cities by relocating with the help of a spreadsheet, that's 150 points per turn. *8 for Sid = 1200 Points. As you'll only profit by this for roughly 2/3 of the game, that's 800 points in the end. If it's more, it would be worth the effort. If it's less, it's not.

What do you think, EMan? How many cities did you relocate? What was the avarage gain in points?

No. It's only the absolute highscore that thrills me. But I know myself - I'm not the guy who's patient enough to cycle through hundreds of cities every few turns - and also too forgetful. So maybe, if I find a nice map, I'll try, but you can be sure I'd abandon the game soon.

12. ### AnthonyIIIWarlord

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Responding to post 87 in this thread:

Some questions:

1 How about you, do you built other builds than barracks, banks and units in a conquest game? (I see that you seldom hand-build barracks, you seem to cash-rush everything, is that correct?)

2 Do you go Republic or Monarchy in theese games?

3 Do you always use a palace pre-build for the Forbidden Palace or just when you really can afford? I mean, limiting one city to a palace build very early is a a lot of workers, warriors etc not built.

3 Also, on higher levels do you always start of with a granary?

4 Would you care to play a training game for 20k on deity or sid, called "20k - Play as Spoonwood" or something, where you could instruct and teach me and and other not so experienced players on how to max out the benefits of trading, suicide galleys, chops, prebuilds and shield production?

Regarding harbors/20k: Aha, I see now that you're right. My first tests on this trick were with coastal capitals with harbors, I think that's what made me go wrong. I also now agree that using the capital instead of the borders are a much better idea, because on tiny maps, the other civs will soon road up to lots of squares overlapping the borders, so if you cut your dis/re-road, there's still more roads that has benn connected to the trading AI.

I really enjoy playing for 20K, but you're right this trick may be better for con/dom games, or even a fast space race. For 20k, I use the same tribes as you, generally the Zulus, the Mongols, the Aztecs and the Germans or The Japanese. However, I am sure It'll be good for a tech or two and absolutely for signing military alliances to duck out of and slowing them even more. A thing I found amusing doing this trick was seeing how my adviser changed attitude towards Elizabeth as I worked my tricks. She was gracious towards me, and would trade whenever I wanted - but still my advisor told me she was a cheat and a liar. Another thread in the general discussions asked if the AI takes rep hits, and seeing this, I'm sure they do.

Thanks a lot for the clarification on how you use forest chops as well. Very informative.

@Stoertebeker: I think Spoonwood uses the term "diconnect-reconnect" because the disonnect-reconnect is actually not exactly the same as Lord Emsworth's "The Emsworth agreement". The disconnect-reconnect does not put free money into the world's economy, that's why it's legal on the HOF, while the Emsworth agreement does, as far as I can recall. Please correct me if I am wrong. Both top-class players of this game and I've learned a lot from looking at saves from both!

13. ### SpoonwoodGrand Philosopher

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I hope you don't mind me abbreviating your name. I have trouble spelling it. I don't know how many you need... it'll depend on the size of the city and the number of worked tiles (and possible the nationality of the citizens). Ideally, I think, you want enough tribes such that you can capture your way to the domination limit, and then put the remaining tribes in prison such that you have enough for war happiness. 4 captured, and 4 left around doesn't seem like enough tribes captured towards the domination limit. That said, 6 captured and 2 left around might work well enough... I don't know.

The more tribes, the lower your score in general before any wars start.

I think the tech pace faster with more tribes, since they'll trade more often, especially early on.

14. ### SpoonwoodGrand Philosopher

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I didn't cash-rush everything in this game. I didn't have enough cash to do as much cash-rushing as I wanted to early on in this game. I think I cash-rushed markets in my Chinese and Iroquois conquest game. I always put those in my cities. In a conquest game, if I don't do any research, maybe I cash-rush a few courthouses in some odd spots, but other than that, markets, barracks, and units. Maybe a harbor... though probably not. In this histographic game, I also cash-rushed harbors, granaries, and libraries for cultural expansions thinking I might do serious research to Replaceable Parts and Sanitation, as I didn't anticipate the AIs getting to either for me, but looking back, I think I might have done better to cash-rush temples.

2. I always play Republic.

3. On higher levels I don't always start out with a granary. I might go a warrior or two, and then a settler if say I have another nice food bonus nearby, and then a worker or two and then a granary (I think I did that here). I think I've also gone with a settler, a worker or two, and then a granary, as well as going straight for the granary. I know once or twice I've even gone a worker, then a granary.

I'll do this on Sid, if you like. That said, since you asked, I suggest you run MapFinder for us. Do you want to play a small, standard, or large map? If small, I'd usually go with the Zulu, Mongols, and Japan as opponents. If standard, I'd go with those three and the Aztecs (or Arabia). If a large map, the Zulu, Mongols, Japan, the Aztecs, Arabia, and the Celts. I suggest Carthage as our tribe. This wasn't the best start for an HoF 20k Deity game, but much of the advice I gave to Pacioli there would work similarly for a Deity game... you might find my last note about how to acquire a resource/luxury in a case where the AIs trade between each other. Invasions sometimes come as desired in a 20k for this also, which might involve a sizeable stack of muskets/riles, cannons/trebuchets, and attack units. Sid 20k involves a whole different ball of wax, as, in my opinion, you want to use the 2nd city for your 20k site, so I'd rather play a Sid game.

I'll note that Lord Emsworth deserves just as much credit, if not more than me for developing what the disconnect-reconnect can do. It really goes back to Microbe, but almost all (if not all) of the details of what you can do with it, he explained to me, or hinted to me, in my "Sid Strategies" thread a while back! So kudos to him!

15. ### AnthonyIIIWarlord

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Wow, nice! Sid would've been a great challenge! I'm sure there's a lot players out there like me who can win 20k on Demigod and sometimes Deity, but have never won on Sid. Ok, I can run MapFinder, no problem. However, since we're going to use the second city - how do I see what start is good enough to save when I only see the first 12 capital squares? Sometimes the capital is good, and the rest of the land is very bad. Should I walk around for a bit with the worker? I'd like a Standard map with the Aztecs, the Zulus, the Mongols and Japan as you suggested. Carthage is noted. I remember that game, I actually downloaded it and played it myself.

Could you come up with MapFinder settings and world settings? No barbs, right?

Looking forward to learn a lot!

EDIT: Yes, Lord Emsworth deserves a lot of kudos, but so do you as you've developed your own ideas around it and taken the "Emsworth agreement" even further.

16. ### SpoonwoodGrand Philosopher

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When I've done this before, I've gone with at least one river square and a grassland cow for MapFinder... that's it. Yes, the rest of the land might come as bad. But, in such a case we just find another map. Actually, a lot of other things for a Sid 20k have caused me to consider or actually find another map after starting it... so I make no guarantees. I've always gone with 80% archipelago (NO barbarians on Sid, not even sedentary), wet, warm, and 3 billion (the hilliest one).

We might want to move the 1st settler a bit (and might not also), but basically my strategy has come as to plant the capital and immediately have it spit out a settler. The cultural expansion of the capital gives us some clues as to where to plant the next settler, and some scouting with the initial worker after irrigating the grassland cow roading it (even if we use the disconnect-reconnect, we can't use it on this type of a map until we have Map Making and a harbor connected to our capital up), and maybe developing a square or two more. The 2nd city immediately gets started on the Pyramids (possible pre-build for the Oracle, though this comes as tricky) upon its founding, and I've made sure that it gets an irrigated grassland cow straight away, often tile swapping from the capital. There doesn't seem to exist enough time to do full scouting if you want the Pyramids or Oracle (I could be wrong here), so I've basically often founded the 20k site half-blind. We'll need a succession game thread for this.

17. ### AnthonyIIIWarlord

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Yeah, we'll just find another map, but I can probably come up with 10-12 maps then post all of them so we can see. I can run MapFinder during the weekend sometime. Yes, I can start a thread and hopefully this will be of interest for someone!

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19. ### SpoonwoodGrand Philosopher

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I don't know if I want to finish this game, or what I want to do exactly. I ran MapFinder last night looking for *any* maps with over a 4500 domination limit (actually I programmed MapFinder to give me a map either over 4500 or a map over 4501, as I didn't feel confident that one parameter would work for some reason). I put in 12 opponents; all the scientific ones, and since early/medieval GAs seem to pick up gpt coming from the AIs best (as well as pick up the tech pace), I put in the Hittites, the Iroquois, and Carthage as the other three, since I also want the AIs to start off with Alphabet, so I have a potential of trading Masonry for it, and so that the AIs can contact each other earlier. I got 4 maps. A 4503 map with a river and a grassland cow, a 4526 with a lake which has a fish (4 fpt in Despotism, as I recall), a 4578 map with a river and plains, and a 4520 map with just a gold hill nearby and no fresh water. I plan to run MapFinder tonight also (though I had meant to run it 2 nights ago also, it looked like I shut my computer off before going to sleep). If I find any 4600+ maps, I probably won't care if I even have freshwater. Even if I don't top Moonsinger's game, it might prove interesting to play a 4600+ map.

I'd really like to find some game where I can capture Leo's early, or build it myself. Still not sure how well pre-building it would work here, because of the Sun Tzu's cascade. I also do NOT plan on putting banks into my cities before my first war, as I did in the game above. Though this got me more cash earlier, I don't think it helped really, since it delayed my first conquest and almost surely delayed my second and third conquests also. It may have helped me draw even eventually, since I could cash-rush more armies, but I think the earlier territory boost might have helped more.

20. ### StoertebekerWarlord

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Hey! Don't! Remember this:

Also, this game doesn't look bad. The main work will be done in a few turns, won't it?

I've some questions regarding this one:

1. When did your first war start? (Not visible on the SoD-Screen, since the SoD was too large )
2. Did you already use the disconnecting-thing for dows?
3. When were you first able to use the disconnecting-thing at all?
4. Did you research before you could?
5. Were you able to trade any techs before you could?
6. Could you quantify how much gpt you got by those trades? Now and earlier in the game?
7. Did you forge alliances against other AIs with your targets before you steamrolled them?