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Mayan Mayhem: A Huge Deity Histographic

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Spoonwood, Dec 3, 2009.

  1. AnthonyIII

    AnthonyIII Warlord

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    By the first question I meant that with going 256 in unit support each turn, that must really hurt you research-wise(come to think of it maybe you don't research at SID pangea) and financially, before you're able to get huge amounts of gpt from an AI. Or did you make enough gold on your own to cope with it? Very informative answers, 10 knights pr city is a lot! In my first DG win, I needed 70 cavalries and 25 cannons to win on a tiny pangea with 3 opponents and I didn't have to fill in my army with more. This was my first stack and took care of all three opponents, I think since I went to war the same turn I got Military Tradition, the AI, only had a few rifles. So that is a huge difference between Demigod and Sid right there...
     
  2. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Other than a 50 turn run on Alphabet at 10% science, I haven't done any research. I obtain the techs via gpt going to the AIs for luxuries and a tech, then disconnecting the trade route which cancels the gpt going to the AIs, but leaves me with the techs. The gpt does hurt my treasury, and the weariness involved almost makes me consider going the Monarchy route, but I think after the wars finish Republic will work out better.

    In the ancient age, before Republic, I change all citizens to tax collectors and set taxes to max. (i. e. set research and luxuries to 0%). Then, I make all gpt deals. Then I disconnect. Then I reassign citizens to the tiles. Then I reconnect and obtain luxuries/resources for my empire. Then the luxury slider goes back up to whatever seems appropriate (if a non-histographic game, this means only enough so (almost) all cities don't revolt... if histographic, this means so that (almost) all cities have (almost) all happy citizens). Once I have Republic, I have enough gpt coming from the AIs, along with the commerce bonus, that I don't really seem to ever need to change citizens to tax collectors when doing the gpt deals. I basically check and see if I can get any gpt from the AIs (via lump sums, which I then buy back), as soon as I can trade for a luxury/resource.
     
  3. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Hmmm... I wonder (guessing no river and bonus close-bye)

     
  4. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Thinking on how to estimate the tech pace of the other games...

    In Moonsinger's # 3 game, Russia finishes Newton's in 330 AD. So, giving them 10 turns to finish that, if they researched ToG last, Russia enters the industrial age in about 210 AD. Russia also built Theory of Evolution in 680 AD. Since the AI tends to research Replaceable Parts before Scientific Method, this probably means that they learned Replaceable Parts sometime between 500 and 600 AD (not that Moonsinger had learned it by this time). Also, Persia finishes Hoover's Dam in 850 AD, the Byantines finish Universal Suffrage in 760 AD, and the Byzantines also finish SETI in 1325 AD. So, she really did take down an early modern AI in that game.

    In Kuningas's game, Persia finishes Newton's in 330 AD also, putting them at the industrial age at about 210 AD also. Persia finishes the Theory of Evolution in 600 AD, and Hoover's Dam in 1020 AD. The Bynatines finished Universal Suffrage in 600 AD. So, the AIs had gotten Replaceable Parts by 600 AD at the latest.

    In Moonsinger's # 1 game, Germany finishes Newton's in 530 AD. That puts them entering the industrial age at about 420 AD. By 580 AD Germany no longer exists in her game.
     
  5. killercane

    killercane Deity

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    You need to find a 4500+ map and handbuild Pyramids in the beginning. Get rid of Masonry opponents. It is the optimal strategy for Maya. I can back it up with math but ya need to try it before embarking on such a long journey without the optimal opening.
     
  6. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    1. You've potentially slowed down the tech pace by doing such. I guess that's not too big of a deal if you have 7 scientific opponents instead of 8 or 9 really.

    2. Your military build up isn't as nice as having 1 turn horse-knights/horse-calvary in 4-6 cities for 18-20 turns, plus 2 turns horse-knights/horse-calvary in many other cities for 15+ turns also (depending on whether you short-rush barracks or not). Maybe that's not such a big deal also. I think you'll also have less cash with the earlier Pyramids.

    3. I did buy/build granaries in my native cities (not tundra ones, and not in my Forbidden Palace city in the recent one, as it seemed like a waste there) to try and get something of the same growth effect.

    That all said, I'm not sure which works better... I think it's pretty close once we take everything into consideration. The question isn't how things look in one strategy vs. the other at say 200 AD or 350 AD, but how things look in 1000 AD. I think elsewhere you said you put out two cities before building the Pyramids, right? I don't see why though. I know you can hand-build them with your 2nd city, as I've done it in some 20k Sid games. I've just put out a settler, and had the 2nd city build it straight away without any worker add-ins (no Masonry opponents). You could probably manage with your capital also, and forget the settler also. I don't know which one of those would work best.
     
  7. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    190 AD continued-Mostly re-positioning of units for the upcoming war with Persia. I'd like to keep their monstrous stack away from the city of Carthage. I have 107 knights now, and 32 muskets. I'm still not sure I'm ready for Persia, and I hope Military Tradition shows up here soon.

    210 AD-The Heroic Epic completes. Sumeria and Greece have Military Tradition. Greece has 194 gold in their bank, so it appears they learned it. This really couldn't have come as better timing! Persia strangely has some gpt available, which I obtain. They haven't had any in a while, and they're running a Monarchy. Their large stacks moved north away from Carthage off roads into the jungle... this might just work. It almost makes me think Persia might want to attack Sumeria in the north.

    I have no understanding of this now... I have Military Tradition. So, saltpeter should cost more than anything right now, even though once you have Steam Power iron should cost even more, right? But, no, iron costs more even now. I guess iron allows you to train pikes, medieval infantry, and knights, while saltpeter only gives you calvary and muskets. I figure out a little more about the diplomacy system. Greece has a ridiculous amount of gpt. So much that I simply can't obtain it all via two pillages. But, then I notice the advisor tells me some deals would come as "insulting". Others come as "they will never accept this deal." So, Greece gives me 224 in the first deal, and 235 in the second. 88 gpt for 15 gold Greece comes as "insulted". 89 gpt for 15 gold the advisor tells me "never". Since, Greece has both extra saltpeter and spices, I get my cash back via spices. Then I pick up the 88 gpt with my cash (no more, because that might result in putting free money into the economy... I'm still shuffling some 73 gpt to Greece for spices). Then I get my cash back via the saltpeter.

    I built a special city in old Carthaginian territory for upgrades:



    Aw snap. I forgot to change my builds to horses instead of knights before pillaging this turn. I could still pillage out my capital and do this, but I don't want to risk losing trade routes, so I won't do this. I have 68 calvary, 43 knights, 51 cannons, 4 trebuchets, and 35 muskets by the end of the turn.

    230 AD-Carthage Leo's flips. As does Citra. Korea and Greece now have Physics. And my golden age will end this turn. I manage to waste some more gold by buying knights. I should have just swapped those builds to horses, but oh well. I recapture Carthage Leo's. I could attack Citra with my army, but I decline to do this to protect my cannon stack next turn. Luxuries go all the way up to 90% this turn, as I don't know what will happen exactly next turn with the GA finishing. I have 102 calvary and 15 knights by the end of the turn... and the military advisor tells me I have an "average" army compared to Persia! Actually, I'm strong or average compared to everyone else on the planet!

    250 AD-Russadir flips to Carthage. So, the basic goals of the first turn against Persia comes as to capture Sulcis to try and keep all trade routes in tact, even if the old Carthaginian cities flip:



    To capture Ura Tyube:



    To pillage out Persia's horses and saltpeter (they have iron on their tundra island) with explorers, which promptly will get disbanded so they do get captured (if I played as a Monarchy, I might not bother disbanding them):




    And to start target practice on their stack. Unfortunately, my cannons come as one too many tiles away from reaching their stack. Theveste will get gifted to Germany as I'll attack them next, and I don't really have the ability to keep it (I guess I could park my calvary stack in there after attacking Persia's units and keep it, but this would cause a lot of attacks and losses, and it might flip.)

     
  8. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    250 AD continued-First I wake all my units, and move a cannon closer to Sulcis. I then pillage the iron and re-negoitate with Persia. Then I pillage out my capital do the rest of the deals. I recapture Citra. I pillage and disband. It only takes two calvary to capture Ura Tyube. Sulcis easily falls. I recapture Russadir. I barely capture Hippo. I also manage to capture Herat. Persia's stack still seems a bit troublesome. Only 70% luxuries this turn. I've already reached 8% of the domination limit. Though I trailed Moonsinger's # 1 game in this respect earlier, I've now passed it, but, of course I still trail all top three games in terms of score. I don't see me catching Moonsinger's number 1 game, but I think this interesting.

    260 AD-After capturing Theveste from the Germans, Persia splits their stack into 3. I clear out all the Persian units in my territory, except for an immortal and a musket on a mountain near 013. I then handily recapture Theveste, which will go to Germany again here. My army has become weak to Persia. I probably lay on the borderline there before, and after some losses and wounding, that makes sense, as I probably only outdid Persia in terms of quality. I do use some 3/4 and 3/5 calvaries to attack Persia's units, though not all of them. The smallest of the Persian stacks gets destroyed. luxes go up to 90%, as I see I have some 1670 at 30% taxes, and 1538 at 10% taxes. I accidently moved a settler too close to Theveste... we will see.

    270 AD-The Persian stack splits even more. So, that takes care of the "divide" part. Now I just need to conquer. Germany and Greece starts Shake's. Umma of Sumeria (on my home continent) finishes Bach's! I capture Theveste again and gift it to the German's after taking out more Persian units.

    280 AD-Rusicade flips. Thermopylae of the Greeks finishes Shake's. Fortunately it has a stack of hills and mountains nearby. Seoul of Korea (on my home continent!) finishes Magellan's. I manage to retake Rusicade, which fortunately only had one Numidian Mercenary in it. Unfortunately, I've had a stack of 5 knights 2 tiles away from Calaris... the last city of the Carthaginians for a few turns now. The Iroquois have parked a few units next to it, so I haven't had the opportunity to take it. Originally it consisted of a pike and a spear I think. It's now become 2 pikes and spears. I guess I could get to war with the Iroquois here or evacuate my units from that island... I don't know what I want to do here quite yet. The Persians reformed their stack into one, but by the end of the turn it only has some 27 units in it. So, I don't attack with 3/4 calvary this turn. Edit that, I do attack with them, as I'm facing 4/4 immortals mostly. So, the stack only has 16 units in it by the end of the turn. I decide to evacuate the island and hope the Iroquois will finish off Carthage here sooner rather than later.
     
  9. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I should have some decent captures here in 290 AD.

    290 AD-Looking around the map, it seems to have quite a few mountains. I had rolled for some 20k games around this time... I wonder if I accidently put the map on 5 billion instead of 3 billion (or the other way around)? I kind of doubt that, but still. Anyways, the past few turns Persia had moved units into the mountains near 002. I put muskets and cavalry in those spots last turn, and Persia's immortals just moved around those units instead of attack them. One my Sumerian deals to them ended a few turns ago, and Sumeria still has a little hard cash in their bank everyturn. I see Persia has managed to rehook saltpeter on their hill near Sardis. Oh well.

    I manage to get a leader from a knight defeating a longbow at Theveste. The city of Cozumel gets the Military Academy. On the next battle I get another leader and form an army. I then take out Persia's last units of those stacks I've gone at since 250. Cozumel has a very, very slight probability of flipping to Carthage... almost too low to even think about putting units in there, but since I don't have rails, parking some units in there for the armies I will start buying here in the next dozen or so turns makes sense. I only need five to make it so it won't flip, so it'll get at least five units. One of those units will load into the new army, while the others come from other cities. Thinking more on that, I may as well put some of these units that need to heal there. The Iroquois have landed a knight and an ancient calvary next to Carthage's last city. I guess it's something.

    3 cannons fire at Zohak. I guess it does lie parked on a hill. I capture Dariush Kabir. I also capture Zohak and Dakyanus.

    300 AD-The Persians want an audience :lol: Ura Thuybe gets deposed. The Iroquois start Smith's. So do the Hittites. I bombard a bunch at Nora. I then capture Nora, using calvary fresh from the north. The new calvary army wins 3 times at Cadiz and captures it. I almost forgot about it, but I do recapture Ura Thuybe. I wonder why the AIs sometimes have 1 free defender and other times 2 in cities that flip back to them. Germany has boxed some of my units from getting to the current war front:



    Persia also looks like they want to re-hook their horses:



    Note I have a settler under that musket.

    Score of 3016/3017.
     
  10. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    310 AD-Dakyanus flips. The Greeks start Newton's! Korea and Greece both have Magnetism and Theory of Gravity! And you've got to be kidding me:





     
  11. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    310 continued-I dedicate a lone scientist in Xcalumkin, which has a cow and will now produce explorers instead of workers/settlers, to start Electricity, in case no one wants to go this way. Scratch that in 008, which has a specialist anyways.

    My rail projects usually go as follows:

    1. Plant rails as soon as possible with workers moving towards the city of armies (that which has the Military Academy), but not so as to waste turns. Thus creating a rail network at least out of the city of armies as soon as possible.

    2. Connect this rail network from the city of armies to the front lines. Also, start railroading under units which have full movement left, but need to heal.

    3. Connect the network from the front lines back to the core.

    4. Connect (about) all other cities.

    5. Rail up the core for more production.

    In this game since I've had some workers foresting in the tundra for a while, and I've chopped those forests already, this actually means railroading some forest squares, chopping some other ones and then railroading. I've also had some workers near the Carthaginian cities trying to chop out settlers, but basically this now stops for the rail network.

    Saltpeter cost me some 300 gpt last turn. Now, I can obtain it for a mere 178 gpt. That's the effect of Steam Power at work. I decide to take luxuries all the way to 100%. I recapture Dakyanus. I also capture Malaca. I also get an MGL out near Hadremuntum in a mountainous region. The MGL moves towards Xcalumkin to rush the Pentagon... which I just build to increase the power of armies, not so I can have 4 calvary armies. I don't do the workers quite optimally, as I somehow moved my units near my city of armies when I had some workers around there that could rail first.

    320-The Iroquois finally finish off the Carthaginians. Now I can quell some resistance, and not have to worry about cities flipping. Leptis Minor, my source of furs flips to Sumeria. Germany had supplied me with furs before, but now they don't have any extra furs. It looks like Babylon has acquired them via the blue line (active) under trades. I could potentially gift them cities, get them to declare on me, sign a military alliance against them with Germany and reacquire the furs that way, but I don't think I'll do that. Persia does have some furs, which I should acquire soon enough, and I can continue to run 100% luxuries here for a bit at least. I only really started this turn tonight to make sure I MGLed the Pentagon before doing anything else. Score up to 3107... not a significant increase yet, but in 320 in the "Jungle Rumble" game, I had a score of 2588 at this point, still had the Hittites (my first opponent) to kill, didn't have a large home continent like this with the major wonders of Leo's, Bach's, and the Pyramids on my home continent.
     
  12. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Since Moonsinger's games have come in this thread, I'll comment that I don't think she used the disconnect-reconnect in her games from her saves (edit:I'm not so sure... she has over 3000 gpt in 1070 AD in her screenshot at 100% taxes in her thread... she might have used it off and on... maybe not before the AIs had banking?) However, I wouldn't feel at all surprised if she used other tricks to pick up techs and gold for free. They might include:

    1. If an AI has units in your territory, and you can make them unhappy enough and they have a significantly stronger/equal army to you, you can ask them to "leave or declare" and force them to declare on you. So, before you do that you set taxes to 100%, purchase hard goods for gpt, and then tell them to "leave or declare".

    2. So long as you don't export resources or luxuries, the "up-front" trick here can also get you techs and other hard goods without causing a reputation hit (I'm trusting Lord_Emsworth on this). Question: What if you have respawn on while doing this? Do the deals stop on the AI's first death or second death?

    2. might actually help indicate how one could execute her banking strategy. One buys a bunch of lump sums for gpt during wars and even before then. Then right before some AI gets eliminated, one would re-negotiate the peace treaty with the other AIs with a military alliance against the AI about to get eliminated. The target AI gets eliminated, and thus the other AI(s) declares war on you, cancelling all those gpt deals. This would get you some money for free, and also (unlike the disconnect-reconnect as I've used it) pick up the tech pace of the AIs. With that in mind, it's potentially more powerful in some situations than using the disconnect-reconnect to take gpt from the AIs as much as you can, since the banking strategy has the power to pick up the overall tech pace, have your capital fully roaded, and get you gold and techs. The upshot of all this might come as that the disconnect-reconnect might turn out as something of a crutch in comparison to the banking strategy with a plan as to how to cancel your deals of gpt going to the AIs. On the other hand, with the disconnect-reconnect and getting gpt and lump sums from the AIs, you'll probably have more cash earlier, which can imply more structures, and a more developed army earlier.
     
  13. Stoertebeker

    Stoertebeker Warlord

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    Hey, this one looks good!

    You've got a little too much money in your coffers, for my taste: Spend it!
    And: Did you make sure to get Persia into a war against someone before you attacked?
    Why laugh on that? It's friendly, isn't it?;) If they offer to hand you over some cities, you might save some conquest time while getting them to declare war on you on the very next turn. You could even sign a RoP for the meantime and move your troops in position for the next attack.

    Another thing I ask myself: Why at all do you bother with enemy stacks? Wouldn't it be more efficient to let them conquer one or two cities per turn back while you take out 5 or 6 in the meantime?

    Okay, I'm doing easy talking. Great play and nice writeup until now, Spoonwood! Keep it on!
    And: Merry Christmas. :)
     
  14. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Thanks Stoe.

    Not a bad idea there. Here's something to keep in mind though:

    1. Since I get all the gpt from the AIs without luxury/resource deals in place, I ideally want to have a certain amount of hard cash so I can get that gpt flowing to me as soon as I can. Consider the Sumerian (3rd) screenshot here. I think I managed an extra set of workers and a fourth pillager the turn I got 91 gpt, 277 gpt, and then 28 gpt from Sumeria. Had I had a larger stash of cash at that point, I could have gotten that 396 gpt in one turn and freed up those workers for something else. Since the rate goes 1 gpt for 18 gold, that's 7128 gold I would need in the bank at the beginning of the turn to get that much in one deal... though I probably won't get that much again from them, I'll want something in the bank.

    2. At this point in the game, I have started cash-rushing a wormy for 1640 gold every turn, as well as upgrading any horses to calvary. In any cities that have barracks (which include some cities that had 10 spt in the GA, but now have less), I've got 2 turn horse-calvary going whether I can short-rush the horse part or not. I also have captured artillery to upgrade, and ships to upgrade also. The Carthaginian cities will also need some buying here soon, with resistance soon quashed.

    That said, (6988-1660)=5328 (I think 6988 is pre-wormy and other short/cash-rushing) might come as a little high, but with how I came as short on having an adequate stash of cash earlier, I can see how I got here.

    Persia had fought against Carthage before I started any wars, as well as the Hittites. They fought against Carthage when I attacked Carthage. They declared on me by an iron disconnect, and I signed the entire world against them.

    No, unfortunately that wouldn't work. The peace deal would last 20 turns, and it doesn't come as negotiable until those 20 turns have expired (see here).

    I run a Republic, and don't want them to conquer my cities, because that would cause (more) war weariness. I certainly wouldn't want to lose my city with Leo's. It might come as better to avoid attacking a large stack, and let it divide by gifting it to an AI city, so that I can reduce more units to a weaker state with cannons before attacking them. However, before rails, I couldn't have run units out and taken AI cities, and then sent them back and took out the stack (the units in that stack would have stayed around one place or another until I've finally banished Xerxes to death). I had an RoP going with Persia before the war started, so I also couldn't easily banish those units off my land, and say get help from Sumeria. Later on, with multiple armies around, and perhaps even infantry, fortresses, and artillery proper, I might not have to take out stacks. But, I only had one knight army when this war started. ISo, in short I basically didn't see any other decent choice but to get a lot of target practice.

    Happy Holidays!
     
  15. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    320 AD continued-I decide to purchase some workers this turn, though really not all that many. I capture Samaria though barely. Persia has some 7 or so immortals near there, though I do manage to clear them out. I consider how I want to quash the resistance. I have some units which could do this right now, as I had parked some units in my city of armies. But, instead I decide that all my fully healed units will head to the front lines, while units that need to heal will head to the old Carthaginian cities, along with some muskets also. I have 109 calvary, 42 muskets, and 5 knights. I also have 20+ shield cities producing spear-muskets. Why so many muskets? Because as soon as I can get Nationalism, I'll obtain it, upgrade those muskets to rifles, and stop producing defensive units, since rifles don't require resources.

    The plan for my units goes to take my calvary from the north and head towards Persepolis capturing cities along the way. New units from my core will head towards the furs city of Sidon. I keep looking at this map and thinking I have too mountains. I hope I didn't botch this by playing too hilly of a map... but if I did, it would at least come as interesting for comparison purposes I guess.

    330 AD-Interesting, a 4/4 immortal will attack an unfortified 4/4 calvary on a mountain, but it won't attack a 5/5 calvary on a mountain. I really do need to test whether an AI will attack a rifle and a cannon in a fortress/barricade. Cadiz flips back to the Persians. Score to 3152. I do manage to retake Cadiz. So, I can try and capture Sidon for the furs this turn, I will abandon Dariush Kabir, and plant a new city next to it:



    And I do manage to capture Sidon and it's furs:



    One army succeeds in a battle near Gordium. One of the other armies goes the same spot. I decline attacking immortals near there, so I don't have my units counterattacked next turn:



    Edit that, I end up parking even more calvary outside there which will get attacked to try and save on movement.
     
  16. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    340-score up to 3201. I redline an immortal near Samaria, and spawn an MGL. I capture Jinjan. I capture Gordium with just a 12/12 army fighting three times. A 3/5 knight defeats a 1/4 immortal near Gordium, spawning another MGL. I capture Pasargadae, as well as Arbela. 1 army attacks at Persepolis, and wins.

    350-Samaria flips back to Persia. My gpt has decreased, and I have around 5100 gold before buying the wormy. So, I decide to stop short-rushing horses-calvaries, though I will still upgrade to calvary from horses for the moment. Some cannons and calvary had ended their turn next to Samaria, so I shell out the 4/4 musket and the 3/3 musket there (how do they have both?). I much more consciously try to spread out cities while planting them for more territory, so hopefully, I don't run into the "too many cities" problem quite so early as before. I had 88 at the beginning of this turn. I basically have a rail network to the front now. This means that units that come close enough to my territory can get shelled out easily before attacked. Multiple armies (no veterans or elites used for this) assault Persepolis and I capture it. Antioch becomes the new Persian capital.

    I capture Ergili. I capture Ghulaman. I also capture Bactra. I land a bunch of units to prepare and take Tureng Tepe. I doubt Germany has enough medieval infantries to capture it:

    Score stands at 3253. My turn ends as a musical phrase ends.

    360-Score to 3313. I have 12% of the world area at present, and 101 cities. I had originally planned to go at Germany next. They lack on ToG and Magnetism to enter the industrial age. They don't have horses or saltpeter. They also come on the way to that ivory city owned by the Ottomans, and come as weak to me. But, Sumeria has Bach's. They do have saltpeter, horses, and iron, and more advanced units. Sumeria doesn't have Physics yet. Their earlier gpt deals have mostly run out, and they haven't had anymore gpt available for a few turns, even though I've payed gpt to them for saltpeter.

    Everyone on my home continent I plan to capture and eliminate from the game. The Greeks, the Byzantines, the Russians, the Hittites, and the Babylonians all come as candidates for war happiness later on. I sort of thought I'd only keep 4 around, and if Smith's gets built off continent, I'll only keep 4 around for sure.
     
  17. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I'll need to put some units on galleons to go at the Persian islands, while I start my next war on my home land, so I can continue to increase my territory amount. What do you guys think... should I go at Germany or Sumeria next? Why?
     
  18. AnthonyIII

    AnthonyIII Warlord

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  19. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Germany is the yellow in the east. The purple north of Sumeria is Korea, who I doubt I'll attack until I have everyone else on the continent cleared, as they currently supply more cash than anyone else save Greece, and they'll no doubt supply some techs here soon enough also. I use combat settlers and artillery like that all the time! I think some details of Moonsinger's article could be better, but once you have Replaceable Parts, that makes for a very good strategy... if you get there.
     
  20. creamcheese

    creamcheese Spreading since 1990

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    620
    Location:
    California, USA
    lurker's comment: Subbed.

    This one looks like it is going well, good luck Spoonwood.
     

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