Mechanized Infantry

[Octopus Rex]

Need a bit of help trouncing Mech Infantry.

I was invading another Civ with 2 stacks. yeah I know it should've been more stacks, but I was just trying stuff out because I've already as good as lost.

Each stack had:
4 Gunships - Flanking I & II
4 Tanks - Combat I & Pinch (+25% vs Gunpowder)
4 Artillery - Collaterall Damage I & II
4 Marines - Combat I & II
4 SAM Infantry - Combat I & Medic I

these stack pummeled an relatively weak city (no losses) once they got on land and then proceeded to mooch around pillaging stuff to set the Civ back on his space race. Both these stacks got beaten out in the open and they were both beaten while defending. Almost the entire stacks got rinsed in one go.

The only enemy troops really were mechanised infantry and artillery. They trounced my stacks easily. Obviously I can see that Gunpowder was the one weak spot of my stacks, but the tanks should've been pretty adequate for that. Also, there doesn't seem to be a really good gunpowder counter out there that can trounce mech infantry (unless I've missed it) so what should you normally use to stop this happening?

Any ideas? (It's probably really obivious)

 

[ownedbyakorat]

With enough enemy troops, it doesn't matter what your defenders are, they can beat you by pure numbers. I recently had a good sized inf/arm/artillery stack demolished in the blink of an eye by cannons, riflemen, and cavalry. Of course they killed a LOT of units before they dropped, but at the end of the turn I had nothing at all left of my invading force.

Mech inf and artillery can make a devastating combo in the field, especially on defense where the advantage of mobility is very high. The only real defensive counter to mech inf is to have mech inf of your own, preferably "fortified on a forest hill" as the old saying goes. Or you can hunker down in a city and attrit enemy strength with airpower.

 

[Zombie69]

Since the enemy was using a lot of artillery, you should have spread your troops out rather than kept them in stacks. Without collateral damage, he wouldn't have been able to beat you.

Also, your stack isn't very good. You're just taking an equal amount of everything. Decide what you want to do (pillage or take over cities) and maximize the unit type that's best for this purpose. Take only as many other types as you need to protect those.

 

[Octopus Rex]

The enemy didn't have THAT many artillery or troops, they attacked with about 10 or 12 units I think.

As for the stack not being very good, I'm not sure I understand. I get what you mean about tailoring it for pillaging etc. (fast moving raiders, I guess) and having tons of artillery for taking cities, but surely having a lot of everything wouldn't hinder me in anyway? I understand it wouldn't necessarily be great at any purpose, but surely it should be okay defensively.

Or would it?

 

[ownedbyakorat]

You could try anti-siege promotions, maybe? 3 or 4 artillery attacking any stack will leave the leftovers easy pickings.

 

[Zombie69]

The enemy didn't have THAT many artillery or troops, they attacked with about 10 or 12 units I think.

Which proves my point. Without collateral damage, that wouldn't have been enough to beat your force.

As for the stack not being very good, I'm not sure I understand. I get what you mean about tailoring it for pillaging etc. (fast moving raiders, I guess) and having tons of artillery for taking cities, but surely having a lot of everything wouldn't hinder me in anyway? I understand it wouldn't necessarily be great at any purpose, but surely it should be okay defensively.

Having a lot of everything is certainly not as good as having a lot of the best unit for the task and only some of the others. As for defense, some units are better at this than others. If your purpose is defense, there's a combination of units that would have done a better job.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Gunships should be good vs mechanized infantry - they get a bonus vs armour. There are better promotions than flanking for that purpose though. Mechanized infantry will beat tanks (which would be better off with either city raider or drill promotions). Your biggest problem is that when you attack in the late era, collateral damage is a big problem. Your opponent can railroad several artillery into you and unless you have a very big stack you will take a ton of damage. Then your half strength units will be cut down easily by the mech infantry. If your opponent is that advanced you will need a much bigger attacking force. You probably only saw 10-12 units because that was all that was needed.

If pillaging is your aim, I would suggest using gunships - move, pillage and bonus vs mech. Small stacks - maybe some marines or infantry that can fortify hilltop forest bases and let a couple of gunships rest on them after some pillaging. Aircraft pillaging.

At this stage you may want to consider nukes.

 

[Zombie69]

Gunships should be good vs mechanized infantry - they get a bonus vs armour. There are better promotions than flanking for that purpose though.

Mechanized infantry isn't armor, it's gunpowder.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Oops - my mistake. They would still be good for pillaging though - spread out and returning to a fortified base.

 

[Zombie69]

Yeah, your promotions pretty much sucked as well. Let's see :

4 Gunships - Flanking I & II
Flanking is useless when defending. Gunships are good against tanks and armor, which your opponent didn't have, and for pillaging, which you didn't have time to do. Useless.

4 Tanks - Combat I & Pinch (+25% vs Gunpowder)
Tanks are vulnerable to mechanized infantry. If you're gonna stack, then you should give promotions that counter stuff your unit is already good against, not the opposite. If you're going to take cities, bring in city raider tanks. If not, you shouldn't even bring tanks, except for one or two to counter units specialized against gunpowder.

4 Artillery - Collaterall Damage I & II
Artillery is good on the attack (because of collateral damage and retreat) and not good on defense (no defensive bonuses, no collateral, no retreat). If you're going to just stand there waiting to be attacked, you don't need artillery.

4 Marines - Combat I & II
The point of marines is to make amphibious assaults. You didn't make any, therefore they were useless. Simple infantry would do a better job for cheaper.

4 SAM Infantry - Combat I & Medic I
First of all, you don't need 4 medics in one stack. A single one will do. SAM infantry are good vs gunships and planes; your opponent had neither. Worthless.

Machine guns would have done a decent job against mechanized infantry. Why didn't you bring some? Especially since you knew your force was weak and would have a hard time just defending.

But mainly, what you needed was mechanized infantry. If you didn't have the tech for it, then you should know better than to attack a technologically superior foe with a small force.

And like i said, don't stack against lots of artillery. Spread out your forces.

 

[El Koeno]

4 Marines - Combat I & II
The point of marines is to make amphibious assaults. You didn't make any, therefore they were useless. Simple infantry would do a better job for cheaper.

Maybe a bit off-topic: Marines are the strongest "non-oil" unit I believe. There might be situations where you need the extra 4 strength they offer compared to infantry. So there are other uses to them than just amphibious assaults. As for your other remarks: Really couldn't have said it better.

And as said: The key to modern war is to completely overwhelm your enemy. I usually have some problems with this myself, as their first counter-attack can be really strong. After you've taken that one out (or had one of your allies deal with it ), you should have a smooth ride. But if your initial attack is caught in the field, and there are no follow up forces, you're screwed.

 

[cabert]

if i understand well, you destroyed the city, and kept the stack as a whole.
that's pretty lame.
Some of those (gunships!) have more than 1 move and could have pillaged rail roads/roads coming towards you.
If you cut the rail and roads, the artillery cannot soften you up.
with 4 gunships you could have cut a lot of roads!
The best way to be safe is to go back to the ships you came with, and amphibiously assault (marines!).
In fact, if you don't care losing a few units, you could have sent a few arts for collateral and finished the job from the boat! (50% penalty isn't a lot when your opponent is almost dead).
So with marines, you would have lost 1/2 art, and razed the city. Don't try to keep it without a real bunch of units or very weak counterattacking force.

The key is YOU should do collateral damage, and not take it = keep out of range of artillery.

 

[Octopus Rex]

Hmm, some good advice there.

Zombie69, good info on the promos, but most of what you said is what I intended. The main thing was that obviously the enemy's superior maneuvarabilty in their own land (railroads etc.) meant they could choose when to attack me and when to stay aout of range and that forced me into defending when I didn't really intend to.

As the for marines, the first assault was amphibious, I took out the city, razed it and moved on (this wa an experiment so I thought I'd just see how much I could destroy) and also, I figured that their +50% against artillery would stand me in good stead. But I guess not by the looks of things.

The tanks, yeah, I normally give them city raider but mostly with promos I wait till I see what forces they've got and then tailor them to fit. I realised that I had nothing to really counter their gunpowder units so thought I'd see what the tanks could do.

At only 18 power (vs. 32) I don't see how Machine guns would have done much (yes, I am aware of their bonuses). So that's why I didn't bring them.

The SAM infantry may have seemed worthless but were actually useful as the enemy was bombing the **** out of my boats when they were in range, but didn't touch my stacks the whole time. There were gunships kicking about as well, but they stayed away also. (The SAMs all had medic in case I wanted to split up, but I didn't get time to though).

So I guess overall I should attack more, or at least don't let the enemy take the fight to me. Better info as well. This was after all an experiment to find out how to attack better, and I always seem to learn more when I get my ass kicked!

Cheers for the info guys.

 

[Zombie69]

Marines only have 50% attack vs artillery. They get no such bonus on defense. Since you'll never get a chance to attack an artillery standing alone with no protection, that bonus is useless and can be disregarded completely, like the bonus of horse archers against catapults.

Machine guns would have been just as strong as marines against mech inf, and for a lot cheaper.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The basic problem is that you are one Tech level behind, Mech Infantry are one level above
Tanks,Marines, SAMs and Gunships

To meet the enemy equally you need Modern Armor+Mech Infantry of your own (those are the things you really want for a Pillaging stack, Mech Infantry and Gunships, maybe some SAMs)

Or else Superior Numbers or Superior Tactics (wall up in a City of thiers, after cutting the incoming Roads/rails...big advantage in that it allows reinforcements if you have airports on your continent [1 per turn even in a city just taken with no airport of its own])

 

[Octopus Rex]

Ah, +50% on attack only. Didn't spot that. Yeah, I guess they are a bit poo then, other than to soften up a city from the safety of a transport.

Yup, I was definitely one tech level behind, that was why I was attacking in the first place really (my enemy was far ahead of me in the space race).

Cheers dudes.

 

[Rathelon]

I usually do most of my warring in modern era, because I spend too much time building. One thing I've learned is you need to attack multiple objectives when you do commit to a war on a modern opponent. If you just send one stack at one target, his counterattack is going to wipe you out just about every time, because he'll pull units from everywhere on railroads.

You have to prepare for a modern war and have several stacks ready to attack different targets. The AI will usually pick one of them and try to wipe it out, while your other stacks are free to hit their targets at full strength.

Also, use your fighters defensively if your opponent has flight. Have carriers and city-based fighters flying caps to intercept all his bombers and fighters. It saves a lot of damage to your invaders if you intercept most of his bombers. Your bombers can still be used for attack, though some will get intercepted or shot down - that's war. A lot more will get through if you have stealth bombers. Make sure to order your fighters back into the air each turn, because if they do intercept they'll be sleeping in the city or carrier next turn.

It's also a good idea to pre-position your spies in the enemy territory and blow up key resources (oil, aluminum, etc). If you're lucky, maybe the opponent only has 1 or 2 of a certain resource, then you could focus on that resource and deny it to him. Use bombers to take out other important resources if you can reach them. Always try to deny them aluminum first, because it's usually less common than oil and without it they cannot build jet fighters, stealth bombers, or modern armor.

Fighting a large modern opponent really takes all of your combined military, and a lot of planning.