Medieval Trees/Puppets

[chicorbeef]

Hey everyone, so the recent puppet changes got me thinking: how is the balance of the Medieval trees affected by the puppet changes? I actually think that the new changes have helped the balance more than ruined it.

So Fealty provides hefty growth/infrastructure help, good border growth bonuses to synergize with Authority, immediate science in terms of Monasteries, and defense to help consolidate territories. However, castle happiness doesn't work on puppets and the crime reductions are pointless. Fealty also provides faith/religion boni, which is pretty good with a wide puppet empire.

Statecraft seems like it would work nicely in your existing cities, considering how you're likely to have lots of population and a small concentrated core empire and the CS/delegate bonuses are always nice.

Artistry is interesting, since it helps with a small empire core and the golden age point scaler works great with a large puppet empire, but it lacks the infrastructure etc. bonuses of Fealty. and its scaling bonuses (culture from specialists, science per city scaler) are pretty weak with a puppet empire.

I used to favour Fealty over any of the alternatives largely because Fealty provided lots of happiness, through it's massive reductions of Crime, and the Nobility policy, etc. but now that Puppets neither provide happiness nor give happiness it's lost a lot of its luster.

I still think Fealty is probably the best as it helps to consolidate and develop territories, but I could see myself trying Statecraft puppet empires with certain civs and Artistry with civs like Persia.

 

[chicorbeef]

Anyone?

 

[ElliotS]

Anyone?

I think it's fine. I've chosen statecraft a bit recently and it feels pretty good. That sick GPT!

 

[chicorbeef]

I think it's fine. I've chosen statecraft a bit recently and it feels pretty good. That sick GPT!

Which tree would your consider your default then, if any?

 

[ElliotS]

Which tree would your consider your default then, if any?

Not Artistry. Statecraft and Fealty are my favorites. I go them about 35-40-15 fealty statecraft artistry

 

[Gazebo]

Not Artistry. Statecraft and Fealty are my favorites. I go them about 35-40-15 fealty statecraft artistry

And the other 10%? Blackjack and <snip> ladies of ill repute?

G

 

[ElliotS]

And the other 10%? Blackjack and <snip> ladies of ill repute?

G

I didn't say I was using a percent. It's just a ratio. You don't know me!

 

[chicorbeef]

It's ten percent luck,
twenty percent skill,
fifteen percent concentrated power of will......

Anyway so you go Statecraft the most? With or without a puppet empire? That's interesting, I tend to go Statecraft the least for most civs, generally.

 

[Stalker0]

Statecraft is pretty solid, especially its opener

 

[chicorbeef]

Statecraft is pretty solid, especially its opener

It's not that I think it's weak, I've just never seen the appeal of it over Fealty when going for a domination strategy. Maybe I should change that?

 

[Noob Fanboy]

And the other 10%? Blackjack and <snip> ladies of ill repute?

G

Now we know, you don't consider Progress after Authority as a good pick

 

[ElliotS]

It's not that I think it's weak, I've just never seen the appeal of it over Fealty when going for a domination strategy. Maybe I should change that?

I think so. The yields for every 15 citizens works really well with puppet empires. Especially with the inbuilt synergy with the policy that gives % yields in the capital.

DV is the second best victory for domination, and the synergy with Autocracy is powerful. The stacking bonuses on constabularies is nice too. Also the policy that lets city state resources count for monopolies combos well with the monopoly bonus in imperialism.

Finally I find that control of the World Congress is just really, really good. In my current game I have 18 votes compared to 6 of the next highest in the second congress (passed world religion with the first), which is more than the rest of the world combined. That means I can force through basically whatever I want. World Religion? Causes Beli? Spheres of influence? I can have them all.

I can also prevent the other nations from proposing anything that hurts me or helps them. With this many votes and some game knowledge I choose the result of every policy, and my advantage grows every session.

The ability to do that easier is very nice.

Also the rewards from city states can be very powerful. Building a road and getting as much production as 2 great engineers is very powerful.

You can use the city states without statecraft, but unlike the statecraft of old this one actually helps a lot.

 

[Gazebo]

I think so. The yields for every 15 citizens works really well with puppet empires. Especially with the inbuilt synergy with the policy that gives % yields in the capital.

DV is the second best victory for domination, and the synergy with Autocracy is powerful. The stacking bonuses on constabularies is nice too. Also the policy that lets city state resources count for monopolies combos well with the monopoly bonus in imperialism.

Finally I find that control of the World Congress is just really, really good. In my current game I have 18 votes compared to 6 of the next highest in the second congress (passed world religion with the first), which is more than the rest of the world combined. That means I can force through basically whatever I want. World Religion? Causes Beli? Spheres of influence? I can have them all.

I can also prevent the other nations from proposing anything that hurts me or helps them. With this many votes and some game knowledge I choose the result of every policy, and my advantage grows every session.

The ability to do that easier is very nice.

Also the rewards from city states can be very powerful. Building a road and getting as much production as 2 great engineers is very powerful.

You can use the city states without statecraft, but unlike the statecraft of old this one actually helps a lot.

Pairs well with the DV reformation too.


G

 

[ElliotS]

Pairs well with the DV reformation too.


G

Yeah but...crusader spirit! Gotta stack those combat bonuses!

 

[Gokudo01]

Yeah but...crusader spirit! Gotta stack those combat bonuses!

Si Dieu le veut

Spoiler :

 

[Noob Fanboy]

Is someone playing with China? Because I really recommend to play with China right now. I'm having a lot of fun conquering the world, the UA, authority, and crusader spirit is a lot of sinergy, the UU is nice for medieval warfare too (and using a lot of crossbows with indirect fire and logistics is funny :') )

 

[tu_79]

Is someone playing with China? Because I really recommend to play with China right now. I'm having a lot of fun conquering the world, the UA, authority, and crusader spirit is a lot of sinergy, the UU is nice for medieval warfare too (and using a lot of crossbows with indirect fire and logistics is funny :') )

I loved China when she was last changed. Now I'm testing other civs, but she has left a deep nice feeling.

 

[chicorbeef]

I loved China when she was last changed. Now I'm testing other civs, but she has left a deep nice feeling.

How many cities do you usually found when playing as Tradition China? Do you rush Classical or delay it: if you rush it, do you found any other cities before then?

 

[tu_79]

How many cities do you usually found when playing as Tradition China? Do you rush Classical or delay it: if you rush it, do you found any other cities before then?

I tried both. I prefered Authority and the fast expansion in Ancient, but this was before the change to puppets.

 

[chicorbeef]

I tried both. I prefered Authority and the fast expansion in Ancient, but this was before the change to puppets.

Did you delay Classical Era? How far did you go in delaying it (like did you research techs to near completion then switch), if you did?