[MH2] - Monarchs take on Deity

[Asaf]

Don't let TMIT read this!

Is that a no?

 

[happyturtle]

The winnable map sounds good to me. I think we'll need all the help we can get.

 

[Mikehendi]

Is that a no?

His latest rants are about deity AI's that get too much room to expand to 15-20 cities and have become unbeatable because of that While we would grab a bit more land, they'd grab a LOT more land, since they pay almost no maintenance

EDIT:

So, we have 1 vote (stochastic) for fresh map, and 1 vote for the winnable map (happyturtle).

Asaf and Stochastic, what do you think?

I'm still undecided, but leaning towards fresh map.

 

[Norvin_Green]

Lurker chiming in

I generated some maps for you guys. I'm not going to tell you they are winnable because I think Deity is a crapshoot.

Here's 2 Hatty saves (same save WB'd for Epic or Normal speed) with events and huts on and another 2 (see above) but with huts and events off.

 

[Mikehendi]

Lurker chiming in

I generated some maps for you guys. I'm not going to tell you they are winnable because I think Deity is a crapshoot.

Here's 2 Hatty saves (same save WB'd for Epic or Normal speed) with events and huts on and another 2 (see above) but with huts and events off.

Thanks for the saves! Did you remember to add the missing techs to the barbs? (they seem to magically disappear when saving a wb-file (they should have agri/hunt/mining/wheel/archery/i feel like i'm missing one here)

I'll check them out tomorrow as I really need to go to bed. In 6 hours, my 3-week holiday is over, back to work


Edit: I guess we'll be playing normal speed, as with the short turnsets, this game will take a long time.

 

[Ichabod]

I prefer a fresh map! I can't check Norvin's saves right now, but we could use one of them.

I'd rather use the normal speed ones. If we play on epic and win the deity players will say that it's like playing immortal or something

Yeah, like that's going to happen

 

[happyturtle]

woot! fresh maps!

I like events and dislike huts, so no preference there. I prefer epic speed, but normal is fine too.

 

[Stochastic]

Thanks for the saves! (echo, echo, echo...)
Here is a screenshot of the starting location for ease of discussion (I'm assuming they are all the same?)

Spoiler :

Personally I think we should go for the proven save world buildered to Hatty if possible but as Inca if not. While the generated one looks nice, like happyturtle I feel like we will need every edge that comes around. Maybe if we loose in the first few rounds (a high likelihood ?) than we can try again with the new map?

Either way I think we should go for no events and no huts. Normally I like them on because I play for fun and they have never been game breaking for me, but at this level I feel like any little push might be our downfall.

I don't mind which speed we play.

 

[Norvin_Green]

I didn't wb anything. I generated a save on epic/deity/huts on and then just WB it to normal speed.
I generated a different save for the epc/deity/no huts/no events map and then WB it to normal.

I figured this way you guys have 2 saves to choose from and 2 speeds.

 

[Asaf]

My vote is: fresh map (thanks Norvin Green!), normal speed, no events/huts (I like them when they're good, and really annoyed when their bad, and at this level we can't afford them being bad).

Stochastic - since there are 2 different maps, which one is your screen shot from? (I won't be able to view the save until my evening).

 

[Liquidated]

Less civs isn;t an easier game to be honest unless you are surrounded by monty, toku and shaka on a 4 fishie start and could stand to lose one of those psychos

Basically on deity, the the Ai's WILL fill up the map as fast as you please so long as they have room to expand. By choosing less civs, you are risking some majorly large ai civs and less reason for them to go after someone other than you. Ditto for low waterline as well... too much land the ai's can out race you on.

What does make the game easier btw are a mix of religons played by different temperaments leader-wise. Even a raging psycho like raggy or shaka is useful if you give them enough reason not to attack you.

Pick your first towns carefully and always look to block off land in order to back fill later; the Ai will not push settlers past your culture (with open borders) unless you just leave land open far too long. Creative is a very powerful trait for exactly this reason, as it's trivial to form contiguous culture to block areas off.

Goodluck folks!

Cheers
-Liq

 

[Mikehendi]

I didn't wb anything. I generated a save on epic/deity/huts on and then just WB it to normal speed.
I generated a different save for the epc/deity/no huts/no events map and then WB it to normal.

Ah, but when you start a monarch+ game, the barbs also recieve a set of starting techs (increasing with difficulty), most importantly archery. But when you enter WB after the start, save the game as a WB-file, and then load the WB-file to play it, the barb starting techs have disappeared, meaning only barb warriors will spawn, because they don't know archery! Barb cities will not be guarded by archers but by warriors! It makes the barbs a bunch of wussies

That's why I asked if you gave the barbs their techs back, so I'll take that as a "no" then

Besides that, did you just generate a map, or did you check the quality of the start?
- map 1 has only 2 plains cow for food, and a lot of plains hills we will never be able to feed (or is there something good in the fog?)
- map 2 also looks like an average start. While it has OK food, it' has no commerce, and is a forest spamfest with lots of coast, which forces us to go fishing-mining-bw with lot's of "idlish worker turns (building unnessecairy roads)

When we have agreed on settings (I haven't counted votes, but at a quick glance it seems normal speed, no huts / events, with Hatty as leader), I'd like a discussion on what sort of start we'd like (inland/seaside, what recourses we'd like in the BFC, Lot's of forest or floodplains or hills, etc)

After we have decided, we could all generate maps like no tomorrow, and post pics of the best ones, discuss it and choose the best one, and then, finally, we can begin playing. At least, that was the plan I had in mind. I want to be well prepared. In holland we say: A good start is half a win. or something like that

 

[Asaf]

Might I suggest using Willem? Creative/financial, starts with agri/fishing, which means we can start immediately building a WB (provided the conditions are suitable) and gain an early food resource. The downside comparing to Hatty is the relatively late UU and UB.

Hatty sounds good, but I think financial will help us much more than spiritual.

 

[Stochastic]

Stochastic - since there are 2 different maps, which one is your screen shot from? (I won't be able to view the save until my evening).

Woops! Here are both:

Spoiler :

The first one:

The second:

When we have agreed on settings (I haven't counted votes, but at a quick glance it seems normal speed, no huts / events, with Hatty as leader), I'd like a discussion on what sort of start we'd like (inland/seaside, what recourses we'd like in the BFC, Lot's of forest or floodplains or hills, etc)

What happened to the idea of using the pre tested map? I'm worried that the wider geography and political situation will be much more important than the first 20 or so tiles that can be seen, and it sounds like ABigCivFan has given us a map that is nice for both the start and the wider situation. I know that Inca isn't a civ that was considered, but I think it is quite powerful, the Quecha should help us survive vs initial barb archers and the terrace will be almost as good as creative. Fin will work well with wanting Terraces because of pottery and cottages on floodplains. Ind won't be quite as useful all the time, but I expect it will be crucial to get out a wonder that we absolutely want.

 

[kossin]

Here's a game ABCF posted some time ago: (Deity/HC/Normal)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=347975

It's very winnable as it says.

 

[happyturtle]

I'm fine with Inca too. Financial is great, and Terraces pop borders beautifully. I haven't done much with Aggressive, but bonus promotions are always nice.

 

[Mikehendi]

Ok then, let's go do it with the very winnable deity map. Another nice thing about it, is we can compare our game (afterwards) to the posted shadows in the thread.

If we fail this, we can always roll a HOF-start map and try again

Quote:

Leader: HC (arguably the strongest leader for Deity with his strong traits and super UU/UB)
Settings: Fractal/Standard/Normal/Medium sea

There is plenty of good land for specialized cities, and many winning possibilities.

View attachment Very Winnable Deity Map 4000BC.CivBeyondSwordSave

So, let's debate warrior movement and settling options!

 

[happyturtle]

Warrior: 1NW
Settler: 1W unless Warrior view shows a better option

 

[Mikehendi]

My thoughts:

How about move the quecha SE on the forested plains hill, to see if there's a recourse on the riverside plains tile (at 2s1e from the settler).

If there isn't, settle 1w to get more floodplains and more riverside tiles in general into the bfc.

If there is, we should probably SIP.

Capac starts with Agriculture and Mysticism btw, so based on what we know now, i guess opening with worker + AH, followed by either wheel-pottery (for early commerce + UB) or mining (mine hills = get more quecha's out to scout and anti-barb)

 

[happyturtle]

With all those floodplains, do we really need AH as our first tech?