[MH2] - Monarchs take on Deity

[Ichabod]

I think AH -> Mining is kind of obvious in this start, but going pottery after that can be potentialy dangerous. I think BW should be considered too. I think we can handle the barbs with quechuas for a long time, if we do a good job with spawnbusting and choosing tiles to defend against archers and warriors and maybe AH will reveal horses in our BFC.

But BW isn't important only for revealing copper. It gives us the two ways of rushing production in the early game, chopping and whipping. From what I see in kossin's DR series, to expand your empire in a way that can keep it competitive against deity AIs we'll need to use these methods. Delaying BW for pottery would help our economy because of the fast cottages in the capital, but it'll harm the economy because it can lead to underexpansion.

So I think we should wait to see our position regarding our opponents first. If we have an easily blockable peninsula, then we can go pottery, but i'll advise against it if that's not the case.

I agree with stochastic plans regarding exploration. Following the river choosing tiles with bonus defense.

I agree with the improvements too. Pigs > Grass Hill > Farm FP. The capital should be our worker/settler pump in the early game. So it should work the best hammer/food tles for a while. We'll catch up fast with commerce, since financial riverside cottages are very good.

Mike could play until AH is done, exploring the surroundings and seeing if we meet anyone already.

 

[shyuhe]

Lurker comment: early cottages on floodplains with a financial civ can be very useful. Especially if you have a great barb busting unit like the quechua.

 

[Ichabod]

Lurker comment: early cottages on floodplains with a financial civ can be very useful. Especially if you have a great barb busting unit like the quechua.

I agree. And I don't want to delay pottery that much, I just think that getting BW first is better for getting land fast. But it'll depend on waht our scouting reveals. If there's a easy AI blocking spot, we could go for pottery after mining. Than we could even think about settling a third city to help growing cottages for the cap, in order to have a great bureaucracy capital.

I'm just worried that we could end with less than 6 cities. And I'm not confident we can win that way.

 

[Mikehendi]

I'll play in a few hours. When I load the save, I'll first do few minutes of meditation for better results:

Spoiler :

In a completely random comment, going super close up on the pigs and watching them waddle around and grunt is kind of zen like.

I *think* (or should I say hope ) a very winnable deity map would be one where you have some room to expand (I mean not being completely boxed in @ 1000BC), no use to having very good land near us and have 3 ai cities on your borders 2500BC.

Also, quecha's are good for spawnbusting, AND have favorable odds(while attacking) on flatland against both (pillaging) archers (4.20 vs 3(1fs)) and warriors (2.20 vs 2.00) as quecha's start with combat 1. I think there's time for pottery before BW (but maybe we know more after AH-mining is in)

 

[Mikehendi]

And we begin!

I started scouting along the river, following defensive tiles as discussed. On turn 8, someone founds buddism, but it ain't this guy:

His scouts (yes, more than 1!) come from the south:

The next turn:

Gold! I send the quecha to the gold hill to see if there's food near. And 1 turn later, 2 turns from AH, I end the turnset. First, the 2nd turnset will be till mining completes (only 8 turns), second, We might want to discuss further scouting.

An overview of our land (with the path the quecha scouted)

Sury probably hasn't yet met anyone else (the check espionage point spending trick doesn't work as reliable on deity, note he has DOUBLE ep's against us! ), but I can't believe he has even MORE espionage points to spend then this. BTW I focussed espionage on Sury. How do we want to handle espionage? I'd like to focus it on 1 AI (but not sury), as if you spend no esp. pts against an ai, ai's are less likely to choose to spend their esp points on YOU.

And some more sign-o-mania (feel free to remove them in next turnset)

Thoughts:
- Only 1 ai met yet by t11 --> deity's start with 2-3 scouts and 2-3 archers --> we might have some room. I hope we don't meet shaka, monty and cathy on t12.

- 2 happy sources spotted near us , Ivory and Gold,

- Sury's creative . AND he's in the direction of the gold. While city spot A would be a good blocking city and a good early prod city, it SUCKS before the border pop (only 2f or 1f1h1c tile to work, no forests to chop), AND we probably WILL lose the gold to Cre Sury, if we place it in 2nd ring. I suggest scouting further in the direction of the B's, to see if we can settle there (at one of the B's). our 2nd quecha could then scout towards the cow in to the SE, and the 3rd to the NE, returning to the cap after scouting the nearby coast. then everything near is scouted.

- HUTS are on!!! So are events, btw. Some deity player I am, not even checking the settings before starting I haven't popped a hut yet, but there's one north of the cap's border. I don't think we should wait for culture to pop it, it'll be gone by then. We could pop it with the worker, after improving pigs, move to PH, next turn pop hut and move back on PH, next turn mining comes in and we can mine the PH (Instead of the earlier discussed GH) without losing a turn. Alternatively, we could pop it with our 2nd/3rd quecha, but that will be later, perhaps too late? Even 30-50 gold would come in VERY handy. I've read somewhere that, as soon as you have 5 units (incl. workers etc), you start to pay 1 GPT in unit upkeep ! (I lurked a lot of deity games )

-settling on one of the jumbo's gives a 2h city tile.

What to discuss before next turnset:
- When to pop the hut (and with who)
- Scouting patterns

Here's the save: EDIT, played another 2 turns as requested, DON'T TAKE THIS SAVE!

 

[Stochastic]

I think you should do two more turns to finish off AH, the scouting has been nice so far and it would be really nice to know if we have easy horse or not. If we do I think we should settle it and then go for Pottery because that will let us build chariots.

Nice call about settling on one of the Jumbos, I was thinking the same thing.

 

[Mikehendi]

Ok then:

T13, we meet ANOTHER cre ai:

I sure don't hope that "very winnable" was meant in an ironic way

Do we have Horses?

Yes we have! But, also to the south. I prefer to settle right next to it, else we might lose it to sury.

BTW it's no definite dotmap, just a thought.

Another random thought: pottery before bw also brings the advantage of having a granarymonument available when whip/chopping settlers. It would suck to have to go bw-myst(edit-we ofcourse started with myst)-wheel-pot. With 2 cre ai's, the earlier culture starts pumping the better! once we pop the borders, the first ring gets an extra 20(!) CPT, on top of the 2 from the terrace, this secures our 1st ring recources. If we aren't quick to pop borders, even the 1st ring recourses might be contested!

NEW SAVE: View attachment MH2 3480BC t13.CivBeyondSwordSave

Note: I didn't move the quecha yet this turn, and I didn't yet redirect EP's to Hatty.

More Edits: While the pictures say we're researching wheel, i changed it to mining in the save as discussed before.

 

[happyturtle]

Terraces vs BW... it's a tough call, but with two creative AI's, going for Pottery first might be best.

 

[happyturtle]

Oh yeah, Hatty's scout will definitley pop that hut if we don't send the worker to get it.

 

[Mikehendi]

She might take it before we even have the possibility... well, that'd be one less thing to worry about!

Do you want to pop the hut with the worker before pasturing the pig? (2 turns delay) we don't just give up 6 food to pop a map but it will snowball throughout the entire game (later growing to size 2, later 1st settler) Is it too harsh to say 2 turns delay in improving the pigs to +/- 1 turn of anarchy?? Is it worth it?

 

[Stochastic]

Looking interesting. I'm thinking that the far distances of those nice resources will encourage going for BW to help us speed up the first two settlers. On the plus side of getting them out fast is that we could use two cities to block off Sury and they will be decent cities too.

Re the Huts and Events, that is unfortunate, but there isn't much we can do about it other than making a world builder save and starting a scenario with them off (maybe we could still do that?). I don't think there is any point in trying to use a worker to grab the hut, the pigs are way more important IMO.

I'm thinking we should send our scouting warrior a few more tiles SW to check out what else might be around that potential city and then swing NW towards the horses to reveal some fog around there.

 

[Mikehendi]

I'm thinking that the far distances of those nice resources will encourage going for BW to help us speed up the first two settlers.

I'm thinking the opposite, settling 2 cities at far distance will really crash our economy bad, and that's not good if we don't even have pottery by then. Getting some (financial) cottages up will keep the research going. I'm going to start a new deity game and put down 2 cities at the same distance, too see how many maintenance it costs.

by growing to size 4with pigs/farmed fp/ 2 hills we can quickly build 2 settlers in 8 turns each while building cottages, maybe start with a worker in the new cities (not ideal, but working improved gold@size 1 for a while while building the terrace is ok after that) or throw a worker in the mix in the cap (5 turns)

Re the Huts and Events, that is unfortunate, but there isn't much we can do about it other than making a world builder save and starting a scenario with them off (maybe we could still do that?).

I prefer to play on as it is. (If we get screwed really bad (barb event or such) we can load a save a few turns back, and set a quecha to auto-explore for 1 turn (messes up the RNG), and play the replayed turns as close as possible as they were played before.)

I don't think there is any point in trying to use a worker to grab the hut, the pigs are way more important IMO.

I agree, but how about after the pigs? that costs us nothing in worker turns, the only difference is, we'll have a 4h tile instead of a 1f3h tile, only a very minor difference

I'm thinking we should send our scouting warrior a few more tiles SW to check out what else might be around that potential city and then swing NW towards the horses to reveal some fog around there.

I'd first like to know if there's food around at the gold. Maybe we could get him to find out just HOW close sury is? we'll soon have 4 quecha's, if we sent the next quecha south he can explore near the horses way before our settler gets there.

 

[Mikehendi]

Well, settling those two cities costs us a whopping 8 GPT in maintenance!!

(cap @size 4, both cities@size 1, not even counting any unit maintenance, which will be another 0-2)

Without any commerce sources, our research would then drop to 6-8 BPT, even less if we have unit maintenance.

Is this convincing enough to go pottery first?

 

[happyturtle]

*is convinced*

Anything else I should keep in mind before I play my turnset?

 

[Ichabod]

I'm still undecided between pottery or BW first. I think I'll only make up my mind after we tech mining. We have to explore the area next to the gold ASAP to see if a city there is possible. I think sury will beat us to it, so the black city site (in the ivory, but maybe 1N is better, since it can help the capital with the cottages and still blocks the area) is key. It'll block a nice chunk of land to us, from what it seems.

If we can settle the gold spot, BW is best to hurry a second worker and a settler.

 

[Stochastic]

I'm thinking the opposite, settling 2 cities at far distance will really crash our economy bad, and that's not good if we don't even have pottery by then. Getting some (financial) cottages up will keep the research going. I'm going to start a new deity game and put down 2 cities at the same distance, too see how many maintenance it costs.

by growing to size 4with pigs/farmed fp/ 2 hills we can quickly build 2 settlers in 8 turns each while building cottages, maybe start with a worker in the new cities (not ideal, but working improved gold@size 1 for a while while building the terrace is ok after that) or throw a worker in the mix in the cap (5 turns)

I think one thing we should consider is getting out settlers with an escort (or two as this is Deity) and then holding off on the settlement until we see someone coming up with a settler. Obviously this only works with a good blocking spot, but it would save us the insane maintenance fees for a bit.

I agree, but how about after the pigs? that costs us nothing in worker turns, the only difference is, we'll have a 4h tile instead of a 1f3h tile, only a very minor difference

Well, I suppose that might work, I'm reluctant to mine a plains before a grass hill, but we do have a lot of food and by the time the mine is done we should be at size three so we'll be working another floodplain too. I suppose if we do get a hefty sum of cash it will be worth it but if we get hit by hostiles that might end the game right there.

Well, settling those two cities costs us a whopping 8 GPT in maintenance!!

(cap @size 4, both cities@size 1, not even counting any unit maintenance, which will be another 0-2)

Without any commerce sources, our research would then drop to 6-8 BPT, even less if we have unit maintenance.

Is this convincing enough to go pottery first?

I'm still undecided between pottery or BW first. I think I'll only make up my mind after we tech mining. We have to explore the area next to the gold ASAP to see if a city there is possible. I think sury will beat us to it, so the black city site (in the ivory, but maybe 1N is better, since it can help the capital with the cottages and still blocks the area) is key. It'll block a nice chunk of land to us, from what it seems.

If we can settle the gold spot, BW is best to hurry a second worker and a settler.

Ouch, that certainly provides heavy support for Pottery first, but BW might still be best, it depends on the timing. Like Ichabod, I'm concerned that we might be underestimating the expansion rate of Deities and the gold site will more than pay for itself and the other city if we can grab it.

Here is what I'm trying to trade off:
1)I think we need to get a lot of Quechas (eg 1-2/city+6-7 spawnbusters?) out before being ready to expand, so going BW first might end up with us having a tech to speed up expansion while not being ready to do so.
2) Going for pottery first will probably end up with us wanting to expand without being able to speed up the first settler.

I'd like to run a test set and see what is going on empire wide when we get BW if we beeline it vs the detour.

*is convinced*

Anything else I should keep in mind before I play my turnset?

I think it is probably safe to go up to Mining with scouting as discussed and then do the second half after some more talk.

 

[happyturtle]

T13 - Move Quecha to a jungle hill. Lion nearby. Put all espionage on Hatty.

T14 - Pacal. I don't see his scout anywhere though. However, the lion has moved and is now down to one strength. I guess he just had a scout get nommed?

Spoiler :

T15 - Injured lion suicides against our Quecha. Worker comes online and starts the pasture.

T17 - Barb archer appears in the south.

Spoiler :

T18 - Hatty pops the hut. Fortunately not full of barbs, since that would have been game over for us.

T19 - Pig is pastured, worker moves to floodplain

T21 - Quechua scout is attacked by archers, mining is in, Cuzco grows to size 2. Seems like a good place to stop.

Spoiler :

I left the wounded Quechua unpromoted. I didn't stop the worker in time to leave his action open - wasn't sure if he was supposed to finish the farm before moving to mine the grass hill or not, but he used this turn on the farm.

I picked Wheel for tech, but obviously that can be changed.

 

[Stochastic]

Looking good for the most part, I think it would have been better to start mining asap, but we will need at least one farm soon too.

I think we should give the warrior Woods II, there seem to be a lot of forests to use.

Looking at the fog I don't see any culture from Surry so I'm more hopeful that we will have a chance to get the gold and horses.

I also ran an experiment with a test map between getting BW first vs Pottery. I ended up with BW done with only 4 Quechas in the field. Because of the long distances I feel that we need to have much more than that before considering expansion to those far sites so I think that going BW first will result in us having a tech that we are not yet able to utilize to it's full potential. So I'm thinking we should go for pottery first.

 

[Mikehendi]

T18 - Hatty pops the hut. Fortunately not full of barbs, since that would have been game over for us.

I never even thought of that! Boy that would suck! Fortunately she used a scout to pop it.

And damn, there's no food near the gold . We need to discuss more city sites, here's a proposal (same image twice, one with recourses off, as they were blocking signs:

Spoiler :

[/IMG]

On the Gold spot:

Spoiler :

Did we agree to settle the gold city first? I think we should. If we settle the gold city at spot B, we have a very good and versatile early production city:
- 13 hammers @ size 4 (pig, PH, PH, Gold).
- We can also use this city to generate our first Great Scientist (instead of 2 x PH --> 2x sci-spec), who can then build an academy in our heavily cottaged cap.
- It is probably the first city sury will attack, and the city is now convieniently located on a hill.
- Blocks off land a lot better.

On the Ivory spot:

Spoiler :

I also prefer spot B (on the ivory):
- I don't think we need it to help the capital grow (more then 2) cottages, since the cap will grow fast and can grow them on it's own.
- Floodplains unhealth; The B spot has 0 , the A spot has 2 , quite a big difference, from which we're sure to suffer since our happy cap is high.

On the Horse spot:

Spoiler :

- Let's check if there's more food around, since it can't use the pigs if we settle the gold city @ B. The land near the horsies looks very brown unfortunately, if there's no food near it will be a bad city and we'll need to rethink settle plans.

On the Capital:
I think we should switch to working the 3h tile instead of the unimproved FP, to pump out more quecha's before growing to size 4. worker improves hill first. I suggest we time growing to size 4 with the finishing of our 4th or so quecha (total), then start on a settler. We don't need a big escort, if we position 3 quecha's in the way below (before the settler is out!), we have total visibility and the settler can move freely @ 2 steps per turn. The most southern quecha fogbuster can then guard the city while it builds its terrace.:

I think we should send the worker along with the settler, to improve the gold. I think Gold city will be good working the gold @ size 1 for a while, while building the terrace. (start a new worker in cap after settler?

O yeah, and the fp NE of the corn should be farmed (not urgent,but if we want a 2nd farm, put it there), to irrigate the corn after cs , but after mining the hill, i think we'd better finish the farm Happy started (online 3 turns earlier).

 

[happyturtle]

BTW, the scouting wasn't as efficient as it could be because of the barb lion and archer. I ended up going over previously scouted ground a couple of times because the barbs were where I would have moved.