[MH2] - Monarchs take on Deity

[Stochastic]

Perhaps move warrior, post the image and then discuss settlement?

Here is my fog peaking analysis:

Spoiler :

If I'm right, it doesn't look like we have that much of a shortage of Flood plains, what I'm more concerned about are mines for production. While we can certainly use all the food surplus to crank out settlers and workers, we will probably need a bunch of warriors too, so that 3 tile will be very helpful before we get mines out.

Because I would only consider moving the settler if it gained another visible resource and since the warrior won't be useful in showing close resources out of our BFC I'm leaning towards SIP. Therefore I don't think there is much difference between moving the warrior NW or SE. Maybe go NW and then follow the river for potential trade routes and defense?

Interesting point about avoiding AH for a bit happyturtle, I'm not going to think about tech paths until we can see all the land in our BFC, but it certainly would be nice to avoid that relatively expensive tech.

 

[happyturtle]

In a completely random comment, going super close up on the pigs and watching them waddle around and grunt is kind of zen like.

 

[Mikehendi]

without AH, worker first would be idle for 5-8 turns or so (assuming wheel-pottery opening, mining first would be awful) (well he could farm a 7-turn floodplain), which is very bad. Also, a 6-yield tile would be very handy to help building workers/settlers. (gives 4 yield into worker/settler, a cottaged floodplain only 1).

We could go AH-mining-wheel-pottery, the worker can mine the 2 hills to get quecha's out while growing on pig and working 1 or 2 mines. after we get 3-5 quecha's out to fogbust (while the worker farms/cottages the floodplains), we can switch to building workers/settlers @ happy cap and at the same time work the cottages.

This way, the worker is also able to keep up improving land parallel to city growth (= less working of unimproved tiles.

This works with either SIP or 1w, though I still prefer 1w for more river tiles.

 

[Ichabod]

I prefer SIP. I think we should start teching AH, because improving our BFC specials is the most important thing early game. After that, mining and going for pottery. We have safety from the barbs for a long time with quechuas, so we can delay BW even if we don't have nearby horses.

Early pottery will be a huge boost to our economy. We can settle a city near the capital to help working the cottages. But if the capital doesn't have another food resource, I think it'll be necessary to farm one of the floodplains to help with growth.

Since the warrior movement won't reveal anything that'll help our decision to settle the cap, it really isn't that important. But let's be extra careful with the warrior, losing it to animals could harm our early game a lot.

 

[Asaf]

I'm for moving the warrior 1SE, and unless we find something amazing in the south, settle 1W.

FP and river side plains both yield the same resources for the city center tile (2/1/1), but we won't work the river plains for a while if it's not the city center, so I prefer 1W.

We can farm the grassland 1W of pigs while waiting for a tech to complete (worker will finish in 10 turns, AH in 13, wheel+pottery even more), and it might even have a farmable resource.

So I suggest - if we have a farmable resource (wheat/corn...) in the BFC - go for wheel->pottery, otherwise AH.

 

[Mikehendi]

We can settle a city near the capital to help working the cottages.

Agree, but I'm afraid we'll have to grab good spots (or good blocking spots) first, since they probably will be gone very fast.

Also agree on being extra careful with the quecha. On deity we probably dont get as big bonuses against barbs if any. At least he's combat 1.

If I'm not mistaken, I count 3 votes for settling 1w unless warrior reveals stuff (asaf, happy, me) and two for sip.

SIP'ers, please rise!. Do you want to say something as a last defense, or will you be sentenced to settle 1w?

Shall I move the warrior SE, and post a pic? We're already on page 3 so I guess it's about time (warrior NW reveals only tiles that will be in or out of the BFC regardless if we sip or 1w).

 

[Mikehendi]

worker will finish in 10 turns...

So I suggest - if we have a farmable resource (wheat/corn...) in the BFC - go for wheel->pottery, otherwise AH.

Worker takes 15 turns. But I agree with the above.

 

[kossin]

Agree, but I'm afraid we'll have to grab good spots (or good blocking spots) first, since they probably will be gone very fast.

Also agree on being extra careful with the quecha. On deity we probably dont get as big bonuses against barbs if any. At least he's combat 1.

If I'm not mistaken, I count 3 votes for settling 1w unless warrior reveals stuff (asaf, happy, me) and two for sip.

SIP'ers, please rise!. Do you want to say something as a last defense, or will you be sentenced to settle 1w?

Shall I move the warrior SE, and post a pic? We're already on page 3 so I guess it's about time (warrior NW reveals only tiles that will be in or out of the BFC regardless if we sip or 1w).

You are quite correct, there are 0 bonuses when going against barbs.

I won't say anything else though regarding the game but can chime in regarding game mechanics
Should be a fun read!

 

[Ichabod]

Agree, but I'm afraid we'll have to grab good spots (or good blocking spots) first, since they probably will be gone very fast.

Yeah, you're right... Well, we have to explore the map a little to start discussing our options...

1W it's fine for me too... But I think we'll have a desert in the BFC, 2SW of the settler.

Try to always choose a hills or forest tile to stop the quechua, even if it means taking a not so optimal course.

If anyone could posst a picture with the warrior movement, that'll be nice...I prefer moving it SE.

 

[Stochastic]

SIP'ers, please rise!. Do you want to say something as a last defense, or will you be sentenced to settle 1w?

FP and river side plains both yield the same resources for the city center tile (2/1/1), but we won't work the river plains for a while if it's not the city center, so I prefer 1W.

My concern with settling 1W is that we will probably loose a hill for production and will almost certainly not gain another 3 plains hill. It seems like there are plenty of floodplains around so loosing out one of those won't mean all that much, but there is a shortage of hammers for unit production.

All that said, if the rest of the group weighs the floodplain above the hills than I'm fine with that.

We can farm the grassland 1W of pigs while waiting for a tech to complete (worker will finish in 10 turns, AH in 13, wheel+pottery even more), and it might even have a farmable resource.

I don't think there is any point in farming a grassland when there are floodplains around to use.

Shall I move the warrior SE, and post a pic? We're already on page 3 so I guess it's about time (warrior NW reveals only tiles that will be in or out of the BFC regardless if we sip or 1w).

Go ahead, like Ichabod says, we could be discussing hypotheticals ad nauseum so let's get this show (trainwreck? ) on the road.


Of topic @ happyturtle: Is that a Girl Genius quote in your sig? great comic!

 

[Mikehendi]

Ladies and gentlemen... The game is on!

BTW, a closer look at the blue circle reveals the reason... that tile's on the coast (if you can't see it in the pic, open the game, you can see the waves come rolling in) It doesn't say it has seafood at all, it's just that the game likes coastal cities.

Disadvantages of settling 1w
- 1w decreases max hammers per turn from 12 (sip, 3 mines) to 8 (1w, 2 mines). Still, that's enough to build 1 quecha / 2 turns.
- We lose the 3-hammer tile in the BFC. If we settle 1w, we could: (I'll quote myself)
- Possibly settle on a strat recource (though I think I read somewhere strat recources don't spawn right next to big food recourses)

We could go AH-mining-wheel-pottery, the worker can mine the 2 hills to get quecha's out while growing on pig and working 1 or 2 mines. after we get 3-5 quecha's out to fogbust (while the worker farms/cottages the floodplains), we can switch to building workers/settlers @ happy cap and at the same time work the cottages.

This way, the worker is also able to keep up improving land parallel to city growth (= less working of unimproved tiles.)

Advantages of settling 1w
- exchange plain for floodplain. (but unhealthiness is the same, 2 )
- exchange 4 non-riverside tiles and 1 river plains we won't use early, for at least 3 riverside tiles (so better long term city) of which at least 1 will be used early game (the grass hill) (so more passive commerce)
- Chance to pick up another (food) recource in the fog.
- I feel it will be a better (bureau) cap or specialized science city both long term and short term.

That's all for now, does anyone want to change his mind on his/her settling point of view?

Else, I'll settle 1w, post a pic of the revealed tiles, and then we can discuss things (techpath, builds, maybe even wonder plans (we're still industrious) one last time before the 1st round is played.

I'd defenitely prefer mining after AH and before wheel-pottery btw (see quote), as we might want to get a few more quecha's out then usual, as deity barbs are likely to be more intense. I'd rather not be defeated by 3000BC

 

[Stochastic]

Well I would still prefer SIP for the extra hammers because I think the marginal gain of food and commerce (basically zero in the early game when we will only be working 5-7 tiles or less) is less useful than the marginal loss of hammers (a three hammer tile pre mining and possibly a hill post mining). But I've said all that before, and there might even be another hill in our new BFC, so I'll go with the consensus which seems to be 1W.

 

[Ichabod]

Yeah, like stochastic, I'd rather SIP, I the probable loss of hammers is worst than the gain of food and hammers. I prefer moving the settler only when I have every good reasons to do it, like when I've already seen a resource that'll be able to pick up by moving. But, the majority seems to prefer 1W, so I won't object.

If anyone got a better fogbusting ability than mine, please check the tile 2SW of the settler. I think it's a desert tile, so if we move the settler 1W we'll have a useless tile in the BFC. And we can find a strategic resource in one of the tiles we lost by moving. I'd imagine that the capital should have at least another resource together with the pigs and the FPs. I'm guessing horses on the tile 1S1SE of the Settler .

Edit: Mike, I think we could wait a little to see if happyturtle or asaf have something more to say. But I don't mind if you want to go ahead and settle the capital when you got time to play. But I'd like to take a look and the capital's full BFC before we decide on tech order.

 

[happyturtle]

SIP is fine with me.

 

[Mikehendi]

OK then, unless Asaf or happyturtle changed their mind, 1w it is.

BTW, pigs + 6 floodplains counts as 4 recources (.5 recource/floodplain), so this is possibly all we get.

If it is indeed a desert tile, I'm not too worried about it. since we won't notice any difference until size 15-20 or so.

As both Asaf and happy favored 1w before, and nothing showed up in the fog, I could settle 1w in 2-3 hours or so, to keep things moving a bit.

Edit 1: crosspost with happy, I guess we'll SIP after all then . But I'm curious, what made you change your mind? --> http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9419161&postcount=38

Edit 2: Ok, I'll wait until tommorow to settle (about 17 hours from now, and unless we're still discussing by then). I can play the first set the day after tomorrow (agian, if we have agreed by that time what to do

 

[Mikehendi]

Well, since there are no more replies, I SIP'd

Spoiler :

I put in the tech screen so you can see easily how many turns it takes to research the techs. When thinking about tech order, please note that when you have a prereq for a tech, you get a 20% discount (per prereq). For example, both sailing and AH ar 169 beakers, but since we already know Agri, we get a 20% discount on AH. Say we wanted to open Fishing-sailing (hypothetically ), we'd get sailing by turn (7+(16-20%)= 20, not turn 23. I don't think non-direct prereqs (like wheel for pottery) give discounts, but I'm not sure on that.


Here's my analyzation(<-- ???). I spoilered it, so if you don't want to be influenced to create your own plan (encouraged!), don't read this yet. Also, I feel I talk to much

Spoiler :

As you see we have the same health surplus as happy surplus. We now recieve 3 health from 6 forests. After hooking up pig, we have 1 extra health. I'd like to keep at least 4 forest tiles to offset the FP's until we hook up some more health recourses.

I haven't changed my mind on techpath:

- AH (turn 13) - Mining (turn 21 - Wheel (turn 30-31) - Pottery (turn 39-43 (est.))
- Build Worker, then quecha's for a while.
- Worker improves pig (done on turn 19) moves to plains hill on turn 20, and can start mining on turn 21, exactly when mining comes in! We'll also grow to size 2 on t21.

[thinking way too far ahead again]
worker done improving mine on turn 24, next farm fp (I prefer the one being worked right now, as we'll face most barbs from that direction) and mine other hill (or reversed), will be done with both at turn 37. Then road something until pottery comes in (if we weren't delayed by barbs too much)

We might want to work the 3h tile @ size 2 to crank out more quecha's (for exploring good spots and defense) while growing (still at +4 food). Food is abundant, and we don't know BW very soon, so slowing growht for more safety is ok.

If we don't see a super spot to settle very early, we might want to build even a 2nd @ size 2 or 3, since we have much food/little hammers, this avoids growing faster then we can improve tiles, since improving FP's is hard work. and working unimproved tiles is bad (say deity players )
[/thinking way too far ahead again]

Wow, this is by far the biggest analysation I've ever done one a start!

What do you think? Maybe somebody has any super-early wonder plan? (cultural victory?)

dom/conq (although I suck at warring) or space (which probably requires warring also) I prefer, although cultural is fine also (but probably requires a whole different game). No cheesy diplo please, the deities will say it's not a real win then

EDIT: Added save, in case someone wants to look --> View attachment MH2 4000BC - SIP.CivBeyondSwordSave

I'm planning on playing tomorrow, until completion of the first tech we choose.

 

[Stochastic]

Here are my thoughts before looking at Mike's spoiler.

Spoiler :

Techs
I'm thinking that the tech path should start out AH->Mining. Then maybe Wheel->Pottery if we see horse or either BW or Archery if not, but I think it is too early to decide after the first two.

Improvements
Definitely pigs first. Then if we go mining we can start a mine on the grass hill as soon as we have the tech (and we will have also just grown to size 3) so that we can start getting some Quechas for defense and spawnbusting.

Scouting
I think we should try following the river SE keeping to defensive tiles like hills and forests. My reason for following the river is it provides a potential trade route that needs less worker turns as well as extra commerce if we settle by it. Our culture and spawnbusters (who ya gona call? SpawnBusters!) will check out the local area for us.

Here is the map I created for testing timings (I prefer to use a dummy map over calculations)

 

[Stochastic]

Here's my analyzation(<-- ???). I spoilered it, so if you don't want to be influenced to create your own plan (encouraged!), don't read this yet. Also, I feel I talk to much

Spoiler :

As you see we have the same health surplus as happy surplus. We now recieve 3 health from 6 forests. After hooking up pig, we have 1 extra health. I'd like to keep at least 4 forest tiles to offset the FP's until we hook up some more health recourses.

I haven't changed my mind on techpath:

- AH (turn 13) - Mining (turn 21 - Wheel (turn 30-31) - Pottery (turn 39-43 (est.))
- Build Worker, then quecha's for a while.
- Worker improves pig (done on turn 19) moves to plains hill on turn 20, and can start mining on turn 21, exactly when mining comes in! We'll also grow to size 2 on t21.

[thinking way too far ahead again]
worker done improving mine on turn 24, next farm fp (I prefer the one being worked right now, as we'll face most barbs from that direction) and mine other hill (or reversed), will be done with both at turn 37. Then road something until pottery comes in (if we weren't delayed by barbs too much)

We might want to work the 3h tile @ size 2 to crank out more quecha's (for exploring good spots and defense) while growing (still at +4 food). Food is abundant, and we don't know BW very soon, so slowing growht for more safety is ok.

If we don't see a super spot to settle very early, we might want to build even a 2nd @ size 2 or 3, since we have much food/little hammers, this avoids growing faster then we can improve tiles, since improving FP's is hard work. and working unimproved tiles is bad (say deity players )
[/thinking way too far ahead again]

Wow, this is by far the biggest analysation I've ever done one a start!

What do you think? Maybe somebody has any super-early wonder plan? (cultural victory?)

dom/conq (although I suck at warring) or space (which probably requires warring also) I prefer, although cultural is fine also (but probably requires a whole different game). No cheesy diplo please, the deities will say it's not a real win then

EDIT: Added save, in case someone wants to look --> View attachment 259340

I'm planning on playing tomorrow, until completion of the first tech we choose.

Looks like we have pretty much the same plan, I'd just point out that in my test I seem to get the Pigs done a turn earlier than your predicted turn. If that is the way it does happen that I think it would be better to mine the grass hill.

Re victory conditions: I'm reluctant to go for Culture first time as it seems to require a different path compared to the other VCs. I don't see why we have to completely rule out a diplo victory. I'm fine with not going for diplo exclusively but if we happen to be in a situation where it is an option than I think we should go for it. I get the feeling that any victory will be a minor miracle.

 

[happyturtle]

I'd say dom/conquest as well, unless mid game circumstances make another victory condition look better. I don't have anything to add to the very early game plan.

 

[Mikehendi]

in my test I seem to get the Pigs done a turn earlier than your predicted turn. If that is the way it does happen that I think it would be better to mine the grass hill.

^ You're right, I agree on grass hill then

Re victory conditions: I'm reluctant to go for Culture first time as it seems to require a different path compared to the other VCs. I don't see why we have to completely rule out a diplo victory. I'm fine with not going for diplo exclusively but if we happen to be in a situation where it is an option than I think we should go for it. I get the feeling that any victory will be a minor miracle.

Ok, when feeling hopeless, a diplo vic is all right, I just don't want it to be our main strategy.