Mic3 - Wonder Expansion

But wouldn't only 8 workers do the trick to get Moscow to size 20, or are you hoping to get taxmen as well?


microbe said:
Ankka, if you don't feel comfortable with having time to play, I'd rather have you skipped instead of rushing to play. I also prefer people to closely follow the game and give input in addition to picking up the save when his time comes.

I do follow the thread closely, I just don't find so much to say here in between of you better players than I am.

Somehow it just slipped off my mind that I could be up. I'll try to look more carefully if I'm up or not in the future.
 
TheNemesis666 said:
I've only just checked in and seen that I was up, I can't play tonight but will play when I get home from work tomorrow and have posted in about 20 hours, can you play before then ankka?

Any update?
 
preturn
I'm gonna leave the settler as a settler, and will found on the 'forrest tip' as discussed.
all cities are very happy, income is a little sad but we can live with that for 4t to demo

760AD (1)
Novgorod settler->bank
treb's arrive in moscow and novgorod
more mining on mt at nov
road finishes on hill at buffalo, begin mine

770AD (2)
settler nearly there
nothing else

IBT
America and India have signed a peace treaty.

780AD (3)
sci80%, -2gpt, 37g, demo stays 1t
settler arrives at forrest tip

IBT
Americans contact us looking for an alliance vs germans and an ROP, I decline
we lose our supply of dyes and the americans won't renew for now.
(could give them our iron, I decided to wait for now)

790AD (4)
we discover democracy
sci80%, +11gpt, 48g, FA 6t
grr, china or india picked up democracy and have traded it to america for metallurgy since I spoke with abe IBT
(india i'd say as china don't have metallurgy)
trade abe iron for metallurgy+dyes+6gpt+3g
(I'm hoping we don't want to build knights in the next 20 turns and we won't get steam before then)
Yekaterinburg founded -> library
and stock it with 3 knights from Yaro
and work forrest to bring cost of library down quicker

800AD (5)
Yekaterinburg now connected to trade net

810AD (6)
roads on forrest completed at Yekaterinburg

820AD (7)
mine completes on grassland at Yekaterinburg can now work it for same shields as forrest (with corruption)
still can't afford library

830AD (8)
Yaroslavl' court->bank
buy library at Yekaterinburg for 126g

840AD (9)
Yekaterinburg library->harbor? (unsure here, harbor is a placeholder, switch to culture build if you like)
sci70%, +36gpt, 32g, FA stays 1t

IBT
Spice and wine expire

850AD (10)
we discover FA
sci70%, +34gpt, 68g, Physics 8t
(I haven't done the maths yet but we can get physics to 7t at sci90%, -15gpt. leave for next player to decide)
St. Petersburg bank->trebuchet (placeholder, I don't seem to have musket)
Novgorod bank->trebuchet (same, same)
Buffalo bank->trebuchet (same, same)


OK, good, poor news and bad news.

Bad news: India cultural expansion has taken our saltpeter, we could try culture it back with a cathederal in St. Peter

Poor news: Our spice and wine deals just expired, leaving for next player to negotiate renewal (ok, this isn't too bad)

GOOD NEWS!: We just got a SGL with the discovery of FA!!!!! (Ivan Pavlov is currently fortified in Moscow)


as always, I'm not really attached to any of my build orders, please change as you feel you have too.

Copers in 1t
workers have just mined a plains at yaro in prep. for chopping the forrest to hurry bank
workers at buffalo were going to mine the irrigate plains to pick up extra shield now it's at pop12 (we've got other plains but not on river)
 
Bad news: India cultural expansion has taken our saltpeter, we could try culture it back with a cathederal in St. Peter

I had wanted to point that out that we should make sure we have culture superiosity in that city, but I didn't expect that would come so fast. I'll rush some culture there and we should be OK.

Poor news: Our spice and wine deals just expired, leaving for next player to negotiate renewal (ok, this isn't too bad)

That's OK. Just renew them.

GOOD NEWS!: We just got a SGL with the discovery of FA!!!!! (Ivan Pavlov is currently fortified in Moscow)

This is great news. I'll look at the game to decide whether to rush Shakespear or reserve for Newton. Probably the latter as otherwise we wouldn't have anything to build.

On the other hand, we shouldn't have researched FA so fast - we should have used bank as 6-turn prebuild. But I guess the SGL pays off for that. :D
 
An SGL! Excellent!!! Tough call on whether to use it on Shakespears or Newtons. I think it might be best, though, to use it on shakespear, build the bank, and start on a prebuild of Newtons via Smiths or Magellans. And the why:

More money earlier which means:
Faster research earlier.
And an easier time of building Newtons than any other city in the game.
Plus, we might not actually be able to finish Shakespears before ToG is researched.
Oh, and don't forget about the culture.

So we can only build spearmen now for defense eh? Looks like we will end up with a lot of trebuchets for the next several turns.
 
preturn: bad news, I don't think we can get the saltpeter back by rushing culture. It's ring 2 for India and ring 3 for both our cities. The only two ways are 1) capture that city and 2) settle next to the saltpeter, which may not be a bad idea anyway.

I am disappointed in finding that we still have 5 pikes - why didn't we upgrade them? Now we cannot do it anymore.

I buy wines from Aztecs by Theology, buy spices from Iros by Theology.

More rant: WHY did we sell our only iron to America? Now we have no iron and can only build spears and longbowmen! I checked the log and we traded it for Metallury - please, in this game we are not behind in tech. We can research a tech in 7-8 turns with a surplus. Giving away iron, and we lost the ability to build the best offensive units we have, which can also be upgraded to our UU. Besides, America is running over Germany. We should not have helped it!

We still have only 14 workers. I start worker in Buffalo and switch Novgorod to settler.

Now the SGL: if we rush Shakespear, we'll not be able to build any culture wonder for quire a while, as we are still about 16 turns away from Newton. But we can research Economics first in 7 turns, which means we can use Smith as prebuild then go for ToG. Probably a better idea!

I hold FA not to trade this turn to end the cascade. Hope no one will demand from us. Without iron we are vulnerable to attacks.

We have 3 knights in Yekateringburg, move two of them to Novgorod.

A bunch MM to fix things. When you MM cities, please make sure to not waste shields. With that in mind, when shields are enough to build in the same turn, optimize for food, then commerce.

I also let Novgorod build settler with 15spt and 12fpt.

IBT: renew silks/incense deal from India by horses+3gpt+2g. Copernicus completed.

(1)860AD: We simply have no worthwhile units to build. Rush Shakespear.

India has Navigation. But the cascade indeed ended.

I sell FA to India for 93g+87gpt. FA+168g to America for Nagivation. FA to China for 11gpt+140g+WM.

Sell WM to India for 2gpt, to America for 72g.

Now I have two choices:
1. continue to research Economics and use Smith's as prebuild (5 turns); then go Physics and ToG (16-17 turns). We'll build Newton in about 22 turns.

2. go directly to Physics and ToG in 15 turns (AI might build Magallen's around that time) and switch to Newton's. The risk is that we could still lose to cascade.

I decide to do 1 as it doesn't slow down our progress and offers more of an assurance. AI would probably cascade to Smith's first which shouldn't be built before we build Newton. Besides, we already spent one turn on it, and we can probably use it to buy Physics too.

IBT Iros and America MA vs Germany. Shakespear->Magellan in 20 turns. We get trees for our palace.

(2)870AD: Our capital is 56cpt. We'll win before 2050AD. And a lot of culture improvements are yet to be doubled (another 26cpt or so).

Hmm, I just find out China has no horses. That means no riders..I ask my secretary to take a note.

AI still hasn't started Magellan. I didn't realize last turn that this wonder can only be built on coastal cities, and AI might not have good costal cities to build it. Only India has some big coastal cities. With this in mind I decide to delay Economics and get it in 8 turns, so AI wouldn't be able to start on Smith's very soon. In hindsight I probably should have chosen plan 2 last turn.

(3)880AD: India starts Magellan's in Madras. By looking at its map, it has only at most 13spt before corruption. Let's say 12spt. It would build Magellan's in 27 turns.

I merge a worker in Moscow and drop 2 turns off. I also clear the forest but it's not a BG.

We found Yakutsk to get the saltpeter back. I upgrade 4 pikes for 360g. Military all switch to musketmen.

IBT Aztecs demand Printing Press. I give to it. China also starts Magellan's in Tsingtao. It's also about 13spt before corruption. So no worry there.

(4)890AD: nothing much.

(5)900AD: nothing much.

(6)910AD: nothing much.

At some point Ottomans start Magellan's in Bursa, a size-2 town. :lol:

IBT An Indian pike enters our territory. Ottomans start Magellan's.

(7)920AD: Rush library in the new town.

India has Military Tradition! Luckily it no longer has saltpeter. America has it too.

I raise sci to get Economics next turn.

I disband MDI.

IBT Economics->Physics.

(8)930AD:
Economics to India for Military Tradition+98g+12gpt, to America for 40gpt+5g.
We now have 7 cossacks!

We could plan a quick war against China, but we cannot build more cities until we complete Newton, unless we abandon Yekaterinburg. I suggest we start building a force of cossacks and wait.

On the other hand, I do want to raze some Indian cities too. With enough cossacks (20-25) we can quickly raze 4 towns. We can then also abandon Yakutsk. I don't like this city at all. I think it's a better plan, although with more risk. We have deals with India but we only need to honor the deal for the next 12 turns, if we don't care about losing some money.

Set Physics due in 6 turns.

Switch military to Cossacks. With 90 shields we optimize shields to be 15spt.

IBT India starts Smith's in Delhi.

(9)940AD: There are 3 regular Indian pikes trespassing our territory to its two towns in the SW.

(10)950AD: More pikemen show up. Rush wall in Yakutsk.

We will be able to build Newton's in 12 turns. Be sude to get ToG at that time.

After ToG, I want us to slow down research and just follow the AI. I want all wonder cascade to end before Universal Suffrage.

We are 58cpt with 3932 cp, that's a win at 1998AD. Of course it will be shortened. We are in no hurry, so make sure keep the tech pace as slow as possible. Research after America/India except for the need to time a wonder build. Go for the steam->industrialization route (slowly!).

I expect to win before 1900AD in the end.

Also start saving money as we'll most likely rush factory and coal plant in our capital.

Keep building military. I want 20-25 cossacks standby, and probably some cannons too. We need 3 musketmen per city, so we still need more.

Then we can talk about whether to launch a super fast attack on India. We still have to wait at least 10 turns. If we want to attack, we should do so before AI gets Nationalism.

Germany is going to die very soon. America might turn to Aztecs or Iros.

Also see the next picture. The pink line should all be irrigated (chop the forest tile and irrigate).

I write the turnlog in great detail because I hope everyone gives the same amount of thought in the game.

EDIT: there is no need to merge more workers as that wouldn't affect production.
 
Mic3-950AD.jpg
 
Preturn- We look good.

IT- We produce a cossack and a bank.

T1 960

Not much of interest. I begin the irrigation project.

IT- zzz

T2 970

Again, not much of anything.

IT- We produce another Cossack.

T3 980

China, India, and America all learn Physics. We have one turn left, so I see no point in paying them anything for it. We can drop research all the way to 10% and still get it next turn.

IT- We learn Physics. Research set to Theory of Gravity, due in 9 turns at 50% science, +215g

T4 990

Nothing of interest.

IT- zzz

T5 1000

Just irrigation.

IT- Ottoman's begin Smith's

T6 1010

We have another Cossack.

IT- zzz

T7 1020

More worker actions.

IT- We build a musket and a Cossack.

China starts Smith's

T8 1030

I can find no more actions for our workers now that the irrigation is complete, so I fortify them for now.

IT- India is building Newton's
America begins Smith's

T9 1040

India is the only on who has ToG. The are building Newton's in Bombay.
An investigation reveals that they are pullling in 14spt there, and will have it complete in 23 turns. No competition at all, even if there is a cascade.

IT- We lose our supply of wines

T10 1050

I sell Navigation to the Aztecs for Wines, Spices, WM and 18g.

I notice the Iroquois are being shredded by the Aztecs just like the Germans by the Americans.


Afterthoughts

We are now at 61cpt. We have 10 turns left on our prebuild, and ToG will be ours in 2 turns. We should have no problem getting Newton's. We're continuing a military build up, and we're now actually strong compared to China and average against the Ottomans. I'd say we're looking pretty good.
 
An investigation reveals that they are pullling in 14spt there
We don't need to do that.

I used big font to indicate which AI city started which wonder. Bombay was starting Newton from scratch. How could it be a threat? In addition, even if it is a threat, it wouldn't matter as we can always cascade to Smith's.

Also in addition to telling which AI started which wonder, put the city names there too (from F7), otherwise it's not very useful.

We need money and we shouldn't have wasted it like that.

I notice the Iroquois are being shredded by the Aztecs just like the Germans by the Americans.
It's not too bad. I'd rather Aztecs get stronger to counter America.

China, India, and America all learn Physics. We have one turn left, so I see no point in paying them anything for it.

Correct. In general I'd like us to do follow-up research instead of sponsering AI research. Our capital is a big science city (especially when it grows to max).

microbe
Kaiser_Berger
grs - up
Kiech - on deck
Ankka
TheNemesis666
 
Kiech said:
Any chance of us even trying to get Magellans or Smiths?

We can build Magellan's in 18 turns, but Madras and Tsingtao started it 19 turns earlier, and they have at least 10spt. So there is no way we could build it. Try to do the math yourself (no need for investigation).

We have no way to get Smith's as Delhi started it 14 turns earlier which is a 20spt city, even not counting the cascade from Magellan's.

One drawback of a coastal 20K city is that we cannot get max shields. So I only merged 2 workers. More pop will bring in more income (and sci!), but not more shields.
 
Ah, I see. Too bad we couldn't get those.

Looking at the save, here are some thoughts:

Merge 1 worker into Moscow. Right now the hill isn't being worked, in favor of more food. Adding a worker there will give us all land tiles worked, and we will still be growing. Don't bother moving the peasant to the hill right now, as it won't make much of a difference for getting Newtons. Its cheaper than Smiths, so when we do switch from our pre-build, we will probably only have 1 turn left on it. In fact, consider moving a single shield tile to the coast for more gold.

India has only 2 soruces of Iron. One S of us in Antalya, and one on the Island next to us.

No trade route to Germany.

Buffallo has a lot more waste/corruption than I would like. After Newtons is complete, lets consider switching to Democracy. I know that it isn't typically worth the turns of Anarchy, but as we depend heavily on all of our cities, every shield/gold will count.
 
Kiech said:
Merge 1 worker into Moscow. Right now the hill isn't being worked, in favor of more food.

I don't know why Kaiser switched from the hill to a coastal tile, that would make Newton in 3 turns instead of 2!

Next player please make it 23spt again, so we can build Newton in 2 turns at the same turn we know ToG (use Big Picture -> scroll-ahead).

Then we do not need to merge a worker.

Buffallo has a lot more waste/corruption than I would like. After Newtons is complete, lets consider switching to Democracy.

Buffallo the corruption partly comes from Yaktsk. I would not revolt to democracy.

I'd also focus on cossacks right now. Get 10-15 more so in 10 turns we can consider a war against India? We shouldn't hurt it too much, but we could get some more breathing room for our cities.

I moved a musket to the horse at end of my turns but it's not there anymore. If we want to go to war, fortify 2 musket on the horses and build a fortress there.

Getting some trebs would be helpful too, and upgrade to cannon once we get our iron back.

I would like to raze Indus, Dacca and Konya, and relocate Yakutsk, and sign peace asap.

Is it too risky? We'll be facing War Elephant and India is still stronger than us. If we can get Nationalism as our free tech I would absolutely do it.
 
I'm making a separate post on this as I want everyone to really make sure to MM correctly. We do not have many cities so go through them every turn.

Capital: have mentioned above. 23spt would build Newton one turn earlier.

St Petersburg: 18spt/0fpt, building Musket. Musket is 60 shields, so we only really need 15spt.

Yarolavl': 14spt. Would mining the plains make it 15spt? I notice we have workers fortified instead of doing real work!

Novgorod: 20spt/2fpt, building a cossack. Wouldn't 17spt/7fpt make more sense? Or rather, how about building a musket in 3 turns?

Buffalo: 19spt/0fpt building a cossack. 15spt, 15spt, 15spt!

All the big cities, once reach max food, we can pop up a worker and go back to normal builds again (the pop will grow immediately due to the full food bin). These workers, even if not needed for work, can merge to other cities. They come for free so why not?

Things might be a bit trickier when we have factories. Pollution could ruin the MM and make you lack shields. In that case you may choose to give yourself a little more elbow room.
 
microbe said:
Buffallo the corruption partly comes from Yaktsk. But it's doing 15spt so it's perfect. I would not revolt to democracy.

I was also thinking about military costs and research. Paying 1gpt instead of 2 will help us out a lot, as all of that money can be dumped into tech and more military. I think my turns would be a good time to switch.

microbe said:
I'd also focus on cossacks right now. Get 10-15 more so in 10 turns we can consider a war against India? We shouldn't hurt it too much, but we could get some more breathing room for our cities.

I would like to raze Indus, Dacca and Konya, and relocate Yakutsk, and sign peace asap.

Is it too risky? We'll be facing War Elephant and India is still stronger than us. If we can get Nationalism as our free tech I would absolutely do it.

We can wait till the next age to be certain. Building cossacks no matter what is a good idea. Ganges(maybe one tile NW for some more food) and Antalay seem like places we should keep, just for the resources they will provide. After razing Indus and Dacca, form a new city in between the two so we keep the furs.

As for the real question of taking on India, I think we should risk it. This is really our 'last chance' to take care of the double-front and shared squares they have on us.
 
Kiech said:
I was also thinking about military costs and research. Paying 1gpt instead of 2 will help us out a lot, as all of that money can be dumped into tech and more military. I think my turns would be a good time to switch.

We are doing fine in Republic and Democracy wouldn't give us much benefit except faster workers. Unit support wouldn't make much different since Democracy doesn't have free unit support, but it indeed would be better when our amy grows.

I don't want to revolt but I'd like to hear what others think.
 
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