AA-battery
Going and going...
Instead we could have something like a civil servant representative be like a labour advisor and it's screen would have all info listed above.
Micro management
- Thread starter Ribannah
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Dida
YHWH
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Workers should be abolished, period. I hate workers, and I hate managing them. But even if I automate them, I still hate to see them moving around on my map. It is PW all the way for Civ4.
As for reducing other form of micromanagement, I completely agree. They should make the game more streamlined. I don't like pop ups. There should be an option for you to turn over the management of your whole empire to the governors. So you an just sit around and do nothing
As for reducing other form of micromanagement, I completely agree. They should make the game more streamlined. I don't like pop ups. There should be an option for you to turn over the management of your whole empire to the governors. So you an just sit around and do nothing
eromrab
Naked Pirate
what would you suggest instead of workers Dida? i'm not exactly sure how that would work... would the cities just automatically improve their terrain? would roads just automatically be built? hmmm...
oh! maybe you could have a 3rd tax/science/entertainment slider for infrastructure?? you allocate a certain amount of taxes each turn into infrastructure, and it automatically builds all that junk depending on how much you have allocated? and then if you want one city to build up quicker, you could set "infrastructure specialists" inside that city??
hmmmm.... i don't think i'd mind that at all except for not being able to build city-connecting railroads as quickly as i like... and being able to rush projects...
oh! maybe you could have a 3rd tax/science/entertainment slider for infrastructure?? you allocate a certain amount of taxes each turn into infrastructure, and it automatically builds all that junk depending on how much you have allocated? and then if you want one city to build up quicker, you could set "infrastructure specialists" inside that city??
hmmmm.... i don't think i'd mind that at all except for not being able to build city-connecting railroads as quickly as i like... and being able to rush projects...
warpstorm
Yumbo? Yumbo!
Well, I don't do any of the things listed in the original post 
, but I think that it would be a good idea if it were automated.
, but I think that it would be a good idea if it were automated.dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
The thing is that automation isn't a solution to the bad design of micromanagement.
It's simply true that as advanced as you can program a computer AI, it will always be beatable by human intelligence. Therefore, if you create an automated solution in Civ, a human player will need to micromanage to get an advantage. Then, in order to compete, everyone will have to micromanage to be able to perform the best they possibly can. Inevitably, the automation adds nothing to the game.
The better solution is just to replace tedious concepts in the game with broader concepts that involve intelligent decisions: macromanagement.
I had a thread before about abolishing worker-movement and replacing it with a virtual worker system, with various constraints and speed limits to keep it slightly challenging. It was pretty contraversial, though. Appearantly a lot of people find jiggling little workers around to be one of the most important parts of the game. I'd easily give up worker-movement for a better resource system, for new diplomacy options, for new concepts in espionage.
It's simply true that as advanced as you can program a computer AI, it will always be beatable by human intelligence. Therefore, if you create an automated solution in Civ, a human player will need to micromanage to get an advantage. Then, in order to compete, everyone will have to micromanage to be able to perform the best they possibly can. Inevitably, the automation adds nothing to the game.
The better solution is just to replace tedious concepts in the game with broader concepts that involve intelligent decisions: macromanagement.
I had a thread before about abolishing worker-movement and replacing it with a virtual worker system, with various constraints and speed limits to keep it slightly challenging. It was pretty contraversial, though. Appearantly a lot of people find jiggling little workers around to be one of the most important parts of the game. I'd easily give up worker-movement for a better resource system, for new diplomacy options, for new concepts in espionage.
eromrab
Naked Pirate
yeah... i think that each square within the "cultural boundaries" should have "small roads" that are usable to the owning country... you don't show them on the map, it's just something that is known to be there... as the emperor of an empire you don't choose where every road goes... just the main roads... which should be what the workers build... bigger, better roads to get troops and goods from one place to another... to facilitate military and trade.
i'd say you could use 1/2 movement to all units in your area on a normal square... and stick with the 1/3 movement to all units on roads... that way you don't need to build roads everywhere... just for resources and connecting cities...
but who knows...
i'd say you could use 1/2 movement to all units in your area on a normal square... and stick with the 1/3 movement to all units on roads... that way you don't need to build roads everywhere... just for resources and connecting cities...
but who knows...
DragonRunner
Certified Band Geek
A list of Events would be great. In addition, I think the F1 Screen should be in columns instead of rows-
example- Babylon- 5 happy, 3 content, 3 unhappy, 2 specialists, building rifleman.
Saves counting out for those monster cities, and easy to tell if a city will go into civil disorder on any given turn.
example- Babylon- 5 happy, 3 content, 3 unhappy, 2 specialists, building rifleman.
Saves counting out for those monster cities, and easy to tell if a city will go into civil disorder on any given turn.
Dida
YHWH
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eromrab said:
The PW System (aka Public Works) works like this:
It is like luxury slider, you take a portion of your income out and store it in a PW coffer. (in CTP PW come out of shield, I think it should be paid by gold instead). Each tile improvement costs a certain amount of PW points, and take a certain numbers of terms to be built. All you do is place the improvements where you want it to go. In CTP you can only build withint 3 tiles of your city.
What I would like to see in Civ4 is a combination of the worker system and PW system. That is you can build anywhere within your cultural border. You place down the improvement, and your governor will automatically assign a population point to work on it. Outside of your cultural border, or in enemy land, you need to use worker unit to build the improvement, it should still cost PW points. You can only use a certain number of workers on each improvement, so you cannot build everything instantly.
The PW system has one advantage over the worker system.. That is it allows for water tile improvement, w/o the need of a 'boat worker unit'. This will increase the power and importance of naval units.
This will greatly simplies the work, and we won't need to send workers all over the place to build improvements, and our map won't be overcrowded with too many workers. This will solve infinite railroad sprawl, because now everytile of improvement costs money.
I see some people would like to rush their projects, there can be a solution for this. There will be two types of PW work assignment, one is the standard project, the other is the Urgend Project. The Urgend one will be a lot more expensive, and build in 1 turn. You cannot place Urgend project outside of your border, the way you rush them outside is by placing maximum amount of workers to work on it.
Still some others complaint that if we do away with workers, we will lose an important strategic portion of the game. We will no longer by able to catch enemy workers. We can compensate for this by giving your enemy some benefit in pillaging your PW work. Let say they get 30% of the gold that was put into the project.
eromrab
Naked Pirate
not sure i like this... sounds good... but i like the road and RR sprawl... helps me move troops in borders easier... if they gave a move point save inside cultural areas, then this would be an awesome concept...
Dida
YHWH
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Movement point save inside cultural border is very good. It makes invasion harder. Very nice idea. Notice that railroad and roads in civ3 represents major highway and major railroad lines. It doesn't make sense to have major railroad and superhighway all over the place. Countries do have road all over the place but not railroads that can give infinite movement.
What I would also like to see is that instead of having railroads making money, they should costs maintainence, like in SimCity 4, every infrastrure costs money to maintain. This helps slow down expansion of large empires, and hence keep the game challenging for longer time.
What I would also like to see is that instead of having railroads making money, they should costs maintainence, like in SimCity 4, every infrastrure costs money to maintain. This helps slow down expansion of large empires, and hence keep the game challenging for longer time.
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
OK, Dida, your PW idea isn't that different from mine. Mine works like this:
1) You assign money into PW like you mentioned.
2) Each city generates its own PW pool, based on money assigned and the number of shields the city has.
3) Each city automatically contributes x% of its PW pool into the 'national PW pool'. This % will depend on the current age you are in.
4) Each city can perform infrastructure projects within its own radius utilising points from its own PW pool. Infrastructure projects which fall outside the radius of any city are paid for out of the national pool.
5) The national pool can also be used to build infrastructure outside of your borders AND within the the city radius of any city in your nation (just in case that city does not have a sufficient quantity of its own PW points).
6) Cities can still build workers and gain slaves, but they will be largely attached to the city which built or recieved them. Their function in MY system is to shorten the length of time it takes to build infrastructure. So, assigning 1 worker will lower the duration by 1 turn, 2 workers by 2, 3 workers by 4 etc-down to a minimum of 1 turn.
7) Workers cost food and gold to maintain, based on your national rations and wages allocations. Slaves cost no gold and half the food (rounded down) it takes to maintain workers, but with a greater chance of starting a riot and/or rebellion against you.
8) Workers and slaves, like food and shields, can be vectored between cities via the 'national pool'. Alternatively, they can be left in the national pool to be used on national infrastructure projects. Other than this, though, these 'units' are completely IMMOBILE (i.e. no more worker movement!!!)
So, as you can see, Dida, my system is pretty much like yours-the main difference being that I feel PW points should be a function of both 'funding' (gpt) and industrial capacity (shields).
Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
1) You assign money into PW like you mentioned.
2) Each city generates its own PW pool, based on money assigned and the number of shields the city has.
3) Each city automatically contributes x% of its PW pool into the 'national PW pool'. This % will depend on the current age you are in.
4) Each city can perform infrastructure projects within its own radius utilising points from its own PW pool. Infrastructure projects which fall outside the radius of any city are paid for out of the national pool.
5) The national pool can also be used to build infrastructure outside of your borders AND within the the city radius of any city in your nation (just in case that city does not have a sufficient quantity of its own PW points).
6) Cities can still build workers and gain slaves, but they will be largely attached to the city which built or recieved them. Their function in MY system is to shorten the length of time it takes to build infrastructure. So, assigning 1 worker will lower the duration by 1 turn, 2 workers by 2, 3 workers by 4 etc-down to a minimum of 1 turn.
7) Workers cost food and gold to maintain, based on your national rations and wages allocations. Slaves cost no gold and half the food (rounded down) it takes to maintain workers, but with a greater chance of starting a riot and/or rebellion against you.
8) Workers and slaves, like food and shields, can be vectored between cities via the 'national pool'. Alternatively, they can be left in the national pool to be used on national infrastructure projects. Other than this, though, these 'units' are completely IMMOBILE (i.e. no more worker movement!!!)
So, as you can see, Dida, my system is pretty much like yours-the main difference being that I feel PW points should be a function of both 'funding' (gpt) and industrial capacity (shields).
Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
eromrab
Naked Pirate
i say get rid of the individual city PW pools and just go with one national one. it would just be too confusing to choose which pool i wanted to build things from... i say have one big pool, and you choose to spend it wherever you want...
and also get rid of workers all together. if we're going to goto an abstract system, then lets go in totality. but how would you build outside of your borders? i say that the Public Works pool should be able to also build on tiles outside of your borders as long as they're not in someone elses borders... and even should be able to build inside of an allies borders as well.
i also like the idea of roads and RR costing money each turn. this would also keep people from building roads where not needed. it would, of course, have to be included with the movement point reduction within your cultural territory... but i think it would be good.
BUT, i think this would be even better if you had actual VISIBLE trade routes... and for each trade route that ran along your roads and RR you get "commerce" and therefore they have the possibility of not only paying for themselves, but gaining a profit.
what y'all think?
and also get rid of workers all together. if we're going to goto an abstract system, then lets go in totality. but how would you build outside of your borders? i say that the Public Works pool should be able to also build on tiles outside of your borders as long as they're not in someone elses borders... and even should be able to build inside of an allies borders as well.
i also like the idea of roads and RR costing money each turn. this would also keep people from building roads where not needed. it would, of course, have to be included with the movement point reduction within your cultural territory... but i think it would be good.
BUT, i think this would be even better if you had actual VISIBLE trade routes... and for each trade route that ran along your roads and RR you get "commerce" and therefore they have the possibility of not only paying for themselves, but gaining a profit.
what y'all think?
dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
Wow, I'm surprised there's so much support for an abstract worker system that doesn't involve jiggling around individual units. When I did a thread on this, there was a contingent of people who got really pissed off!
(Mostly the types who say "but that won't be Civ anymore", who masqueraded under "but being able to pathfind is a sign of a superior mind! do you really want to dumb down the game?" My reply to them was always that making workers abstract would free up time for REALLY interesting concepts, ones that require real thought instead of tedium and repetition.)
(Mostly the types who say "but that won't be Civ anymore", who masqueraded under "but being able to pathfind is a sign of a superior mind! do you really want to dumb down the game?" My reply to them was always that making workers abstract would free up time for REALLY interesting concepts, ones that require real thought instead of tedium and repetition.)
eromrab
Naked Pirate
i agree man... i want to get rid of workers, but keep the same functions... if that makes sense?
i want to get rid of the physical worker unit. but i want to be able to build a road/RR in a specific place that i choose. that's why i like the Public Works pool of money idea... you set a slider to "tax" a certain amount for public works... and then you can "path find" without workers...
you click on a terrain square... choose the function you want "build road"... then you move a slider left or right... you have a thing that says how many turns it will take and the cost that it will take to acheive that...
for example... i click on a grassland square... a window pops up with some functions that i can do "build road, irrigate, build mine, etc"... i click "build road"... another window pops up... it starts with the slider all the way to the left and says "3 turns @ 100 gp"... i slide it to the right 1... and it now says "2 turns @ 200 gp"... i slide it one more and now it says "1 turn @ 300 gp"... i slide it one more and it says "NOW @ 500 gp"... something like that.
you still have the "skill" required in using a worker... but also the benefit of not having to build these units which would be much better handled with an abstract form...
i want to get rid of the physical worker unit. but i want to be able to build a road/RR in a specific place that i choose. that's why i like the Public Works pool of money idea... you set a slider to "tax" a certain amount for public works... and then you can "path find" without workers...
you click on a terrain square... choose the function you want "build road"... then you move a slider left or right... you have a thing that says how many turns it will take and the cost that it will take to acheive that...
for example... i click on a grassland square... a window pops up with some functions that i can do "build road, irrigate, build mine, etc"... i click "build road"... another window pops up... it starts with the slider all the way to the left and says "3 turns @ 100 gp"... i slide it to the right 1... and it now says "2 turns @ 200 gp"... i slide it one more and now it says "1 turn @ 300 gp"... i slide it one more and it says "NOW @ 500 gp"... something like that.
you still have the "skill" required in using a worker... but also the benefit of not having to build these units which would be much better handled with an abstract form...
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
one complaint that WAS raised when dh first posted the abstract PW thread was that there would be no workers to capture and, therefore, no slavery!!! This was the ONLY argument that I believed had ANY merit, which was why I suggested that you could still build workers-they just wouldn't move (except for moving between cities via vectoring) They would all sit in a 'worker pool' within the city screen-where they can be allocated to infrastructure work. The risk, though, is that every worker you have on a single infrastructure project increases the chance of you LOSING worker(s) if the square is overrun by an enemy. If this happens, then the unit ends up in the nearest city belonging to that civ (distance away would determine 'lag-time') as a slave!
I think this is a very REASONABLe compromise between the current system and a PW system!
Yours,
Aussie_Lurker
I think this is a very REASONABLe compromise between the current system and a PW system!
Yours,
Aussie_Lurker
frekk
Scourge of St. Lawrence
Get rid of workers and it is not Civilization anymore, imho.
eromrab
Naked Pirate
seems like too much work compared to the plan that i proposed... i understand people's sentiment in workers... they make or break the game as it currently stands... but i still support the abstract idea... diplomats and spies had their turn... caravans had theirs... let's dump the workers for a better system too... that way you can focus your cities to build military units, buildings, wonders, and settlers... and maybe some day settlers can become abstract too ;-)
frekk
Scourge of St. Lawrence
eromrab said:
At that point it is *definately* not Civilization anymore - it is Empire Deluxe with tweaked graphics.
How about this instead: you still have workers, but not many, because you don't need to build as much. Instead of getting more food or trade or whatever out of a square (or hex, as I hope!) instead you build improvements for a specific purpose: roads and rail to move units; mines to collect certain resources and other improvements to collect other resources; and of course, forts and airfields and all that stuff. Do away with the need for bonus improvements by simply saying that, once you get a certain technology, all terrain X gets bonus Y. Just keep function improvements.
