Middle Age Mod... interested?
- Thread starter Laurino
- Start date
Hi all!
Just to let you all know, the thread isn't dead - I'm working on this mod any spare moment I have (not too many admittedly, between job and gf).
Thanks for your suggestions and interest Iuvavus. You suggest many medieval phenomena which will indeed appear in my mod (if not the first version, then eventually). Some of the civics you suggest will probably rather be represented by wonders though, such as the Hanseatic League and the Magna Carta.
In designing the techs I decided to stick to one tech-tree for everyone, so I've avoided techs which specifically refer to one culture, such as "Romance Architecture" or "Gothic Architecture"; what I have is just "Architecture" and "Philosophy" for example, and then the Civilopedia text will tell the rest of the story. My approach overall is that I don't want to force history too much, I feel that's against the basic idea of Civilization as a game.
Seeing that you're an Austrian, I'd like to share some thoughts which may be of interest to you:
Medieval Germany is particularly challenging to simulate in Civ4. There are various political entities associated with it, such as the Holy Roman Empire, the Hanseatic League, the Teutonic Knights, all of which could potentially be playable factions by themselves. Then some modern nations were in medieval times part of the Holy Roman Empire and thus part of "Germany" in some sense, notably the Netherlands and Austria.
I've decided not to include the Teutonic Knights or the Hanseatic League as separate civs. The civs in my mod are almost exclusively nations. Germany will not be called "The Holy Roman Empire" by default, either; it will just be "Kingdom of Germany". My idea is that "The Holy Roman Empire" represents a claim to authority which could easily have been made by the ruler of another European nation, thus I want to make it into a game concept by itself, a sort of achievement. Possibly a wonder, but ideally by making something completely new with the SDK.
What I'm thinking of is a separate concept, a "claim", which would be "founded" kind of like religions in the game. There would be four claims, each associated with one of the major religions:
Catholic - Holy Roman Emperor
Orthodox - Roman Emperor
Sunni - Caliph
Shi'a - Caliph
The game effect I have in mind is that upon making a claim, the founding civ's name would change (to "Holy Roman Empire" for example) and its cities would produce +100% culture for x turns (12? 16? the rest of the game? - a matter of finding the right balance). The in-game message would be something like "Otto the Great proclaims himself Holy Roman Emperor".
Finally, a question: do you want to see the Austrians as a separate nation in this mod? My current position is that they don't merit inclusion any more than, say, Swabians, Franconians, Bavarians, etc. In medieval times Austria was just another ethnically German region in the HRE, as far as I understand, or would you disagree? In the same way there are no "Dutch", although I will have Frisia as a separate nation.
Just to let you all know, the thread isn't dead - I'm working on this mod any spare moment I have (not too many admittedly, between job and gf).
Thanks for your suggestions and interest Iuvavus. You suggest many medieval phenomena which will indeed appear in my mod (if not the first version, then eventually). Some of the civics you suggest will probably rather be represented by wonders though, such as the Hanseatic League and the Magna Carta.
In designing the techs I decided to stick to one tech-tree for everyone, so I've avoided techs which specifically refer to one culture, such as "Romance Architecture" or "Gothic Architecture"; what I have is just "Architecture" and "Philosophy" for example, and then the Civilopedia text will tell the rest of the story. My approach overall is that I don't want to force history too much, I feel that's against the basic idea of Civilization as a game.
Seeing that you're an Austrian, I'd like to share some thoughts which may be of interest to you:
Medieval Germany is particularly challenging to simulate in Civ4. There are various political entities associated with it, such as the Holy Roman Empire, the Hanseatic League, the Teutonic Knights, all of which could potentially be playable factions by themselves. Then some modern nations were in medieval times part of the Holy Roman Empire and thus part of "Germany" in some sense, notably the Netherlands and Austria.
I've decided not to include the Teutonic Knights or the Hanseatic League as separate civs. The civs in my mod are almost exclusively nations. Germany will not be called "The Holy Roman Empire" by default, either; it will just be "Kingdom of Germany". My idea is that "The Holy Roman Empire" represents a claim to authority which could easily have been made by the ruler of another European nation, thus I want to make it into a game concept by itself, a sort of achievement. Possibly a wonder, but ideally by making something completely new with the SDK.
What I'm thinking of is a separate concept, a "claim", which would be "founded" kind of like religions in the game. There would be four claims, each associated with one of the major religions:
Catholic - Holy Roman Emperor
Orthodox - Roman Emperor
Sunni - Caliph
Shi'a - Caliph
The game effect I have in mind is that upon making a claim, the founding civ's name would change (to "Holy Roman Empire" for example) and its cities would produce +100% culture for x turns (12? 16? the rest of the game? - a matter of finding the right balance). The in-game message would be something like "Otto the Great proclaims himself Holy Roman Emperor".
Finally, a question: do you want to see the Austrians as a separate nation in this mod? My current position is that they don't merit inclusion any more than, say, Swabians, Franconians, Bavarians, etc. In medieval times Austria was just another ethnically German region in the HRE, as far as I understand, or would you disagree? In the same way there are no "Dutch", although I will have Frisia as a separate nation.
Spartan117
Immortal
middle age mods/scenarios are always good
Craig_Sutter
Deity
The "claims" should likely be associated with the divine right tech as a prereq. Is there a way to associate numbers or percentage of adherents to a religion in the world with the acquisition of a free tech? ie "Your empire is the vanguard of the faith. Almost all citizens are Catholic. The pope acknowleges you as the emporer of Christiandom... the Holy Roman Empire is born." What the effects of the claims should be, I don't know... some diplomatic benefit amongst nations with the same state religion... ability to call a Crusade...a golden age?
The Hanse might be associated with the percentage of world trade... these numbers are generated for the statistics page, so the game keeps track of them... perhaps free techs can be generated based upon certain stats, rather than researched... prereq might be guilds or banking or another one.
Some items like the "claims" and the Hanse are not located in a specific city... perhaps a mechanism might be developed where a portion or all or the hammers from designated cities where "Hanse" for instance, is being built, can be used to develop such an item. Sort of like the spaceship, but no spaceship victory, rather the creation of a "claim" or other item that is not actually a physical object or wonder... could multiple spaceships be created? Cities that build a portion of the object would get some benefit... Hanse membership, becoming an elector of the HRE, production of special units, etc. whatever those benefits entail.
These are just a couple of suggestions.
I'm looking forward to this mod's creation, and will try as best I might to make suggestions once the first version is open for testing and commentary. I'd be happy to assist where I may, if only in writing text for the Civopedia.
The Hanse might be associated with the percentage of world trade... these numbers are generated for the statistics page, so the game keeps track of them... perhaps free techs can be generated based upon certain stats, rather than researched... prereq might be guilds or banking or another one.
Some items like the "claims" and the Hanse are not located in a specific city... perhaps a mechanism might be developed where a portion or all or the hammers from designated cities where "Hanse" for instance, is being built, can be used to develop such an item. Sort of like the spaceship, but no spaceship victory, rather the creation of a "claim" or other item that is not actually a physical object or wonder... could multiple spaceships be created? Cities that build a portion of the object would get some benefit... Hanse membership, becoming an elector of the HRE, production of special units, etc. whatever those benefits entail.
These are just a couple of suggestions.
I'm looking forward to this mod's creation, and will try as best I might to make suggestions once the first version is open for testing and commentary. I'd be happy to assist where I may, if only in writing text for the Civopedia.
Iuvavus
Marcomanni Exile
Your Idea for the Emperor is great.
Austria was a part of the HRE until 1806, so there was no independent Austria in the middle Ages.
You could make the HRE one "nation" (Germany has not been a nation untill the days of Bismarck, it was in a way like Italy). The HRE also included Frisia (so why do you want to add this?), Bohemia and Northern Italy and the Papal States.
You could also split up Germany to its major members (Bohemia, Bavaria, Austria, Swabia, Franconia, Burgundry, Teutonic Order, ...), but that would make too much civs.
Maybe you can make a HRE-Mod, with only the HRE-Countrys in the Middle Ages
Although there will not be Austria in this Mod, I will also enjoy playing it, when it is finished.
Austria was a part of the HRE until 1806, so there was no independent Austria in the middle Ages.
You could make the HRE one "nation" (Germany has not been a nation untill the days of Bismarck, it was in a way like Italy). The HRE also included Frisia (so why do you want to add this?), Bohemia and Northern Italy and the Papal States.
You could also split up Germany to its major members (Bohemia, Bavaria, Austria, Swabia, Franconia, Burgundry, Teutonic Order, ...), but that would make too much civs.
Maybe you can make a HRE-Mod, with only the HRE-Countrys in the Middle Ages
Although there will not be Austria in this Mod, I will also enjoy playing it, when it is finished.
Polietileno
Sleep Is For The Weak
Austria should be separaded, aroud the 14 century become autonumus from the HRE, is the same kind of case with Flades, but because you can´t have 1 millon civs on the map (i wish to have Deep Blue to try that) HRE is the mayor civ and Flades and Austria are independend, that how I proposed in the spreadsheet in the last page. And the Hansa League, I put it as a Wonder, comes with Guilds and gives 1 more 
and 1 more 
in each coastal city.
and 1 more in each coastal city.onedreamer
Dragon
Laurino said:While going trough the Modpack forum, I realized that no one has made a european Middle Age Mod so far... So I'm starting this thread to see if anyone would be interested, to know if people would want to play it before doing some big work...
As for myself, I already started to "outline" the mod, but it isn't playable yet... In fact, you can't even launch a game with it, as I am still clearing the XMLs...
What I plan to do, is to start it where TAM ends... I worked a lot on that mod, and I want the Middle Age mod to carry on from where TAM leaves us, and , who knows, maybe we could merge the mods later on... But that's only a HUGE maybe...
So anyhow, please post if you're interested... Ideas are, of couse, always welcomed!!!!
Hi Laurino,
I plan something like that. Based on Europa Europa and Europa Universalis. But more than mod I'd call it scenario.
edit: hmm, on better reading, since you guys are already working on this, I will just email you with the ideas I had about it
This mod isn't dead, just in case anyone was wondering.
I'm working hard on it any spare moment I have right now, although RL doesn't leave me much time. I expect to create a proper thread for it very soon and post a playable version. It won't have new graphics because that isn't done yet but design and XML programming is almost completely done.
Almost everything is tweaked, adapted or redone from the ground-up to properly capture the European Middle Ages from 500 AD to 1500 AD; including a new tech-tree, new traits, new improvements, new resources, new units, new promotions, new buildings, new civics... in short, new stuff.
I'm working hard on it any spare moment I have right now, although RL doesn't leave me much time. I expect to create a proper thread for it very soon and post a playable version. It won't have new graphics because that isn't done yet but design and XML programming is almost completely done.
Almost everything is tweaked, adapted or redone from the ground-up to properly capture the European Middle Ages from 500 AD to 1500 AD; including a new tech-tree, new traits, new improvements, new resources, new units, new promotions, new buildings, new civics... in short, new stuff.
onedreamer
Dragon
I look forward to your preview Oskar as that's also the timeframe I wanted to cover.
Polietileno
Sleep Is For The Weak
I like to make a formal complain (or request) that the mod should cover until the 1600s, basically because of the reform and the counter reform, and also The Westphalia Treaty was the end of the religious-state as the only idea for goverment, coming form the middle ages. Ending it at 1500 will cut the timeline in which the knight become obsolite and the rise if the infantry (pike, musket) and artillery (cannons, bombards) and also the great 16th and 17th century inventions and wonders.
That was my 2 cents.
That was my 2 cents.
Shqype
Shqyptar
For those ideas please move on to my mod which is in my signature!Polietileno said:
onedreamer
Dragon
Polietileno said:
yeah but think in Civ terms... the reformation and philosophical changes are not easy to represent and to place as a victory condition. The discovery of the new world instead is very similar to the space race.
@Polietileno:
Well, I see your point and you make a reasonable argument for it. Stretching the time period until 1648 (Westphalia) would then include the entire age of pikes & muskets, in terms of warfare.
However, I think there's simply always the temptation to stretch the time period a bit, one way or another, because history has very few "clean breaks". My choice of 1500 as end year is there to avoid altogether the Reformation with all its religious complications, along with all the fundamental changes in European economy because of colonialism.
Onedreamer has got it exactly right: I'm replacing the spaceship victory with an exploration victory, which fits very neatly. I'm not featuring anything at all related to colonial empires, e.g. no colonial resources.
Anyway I feel that 500-1500 isn't inappropriate for warfare either; it is the period of the mounted warrior, knights and horse archers. The decline of cavalry starts in the 14th century with the appearance of pikemen, longbowmen, and early gunpowder. By the end of the period mounted dominance is finally over and armies are based on pikes, muskets, and cannons, with just a little cavalry as support.
Well, I see your point and you make a reasonable argument for it. Stretching the time period until 1648 (Westphalia) would then include the entire age of pikes & muskets, in terms of warfare.
However, I think there's simply always the temptation to stretch the time period a bit, one way or another, because history has very few "clean breaks". My choice of 1500 as end year is there to avoid altogether the Reformation with all its religious complications, along with all the fundamental changes in European economy because of colonialism.
Onedreamer has got it exactly right: I'm replacing the spaceship victory with an exploration victory, which fits very neatly. I'm not featuring anything at all related to colonial empires, e.g. no colonial resources.
Anyway I feel that 500-1500 isn't inappropriate for warfare either; it is the period of the mounted warrior, knights and horse archers. The decline of cavalry starts in the 14th century with the appearance of pikemen, longbowmen, and early gunpowder. By the end of the period mounted dominance is finally over and armies are based on pikes, muskets, and cannons, with just a little cavalry as support.
Polietileno
Sleep Is For The Weak
Yep, but this mod will end with the calvary declining, but not completly, because the end of the calvary era can be assume between 1450-1500, then you have pikes, muskets and cannons.
After 1500 you have the Reform, Counterreform, Colonialism, the raise of the Ottomans, Russia and Sweden. That´s why I propouse a Colonialism type of Spaceship Win, with explorers like Magallanes or Cabot as Spaceship Parts. And also the Diplo win, that is constructing the Westphalia treaty to pic a winner.
Also colonialism can bring different things, not only luxuries like silk or, gold or spices, but also sugar, potato and bananas. This could be use also with the new religions to be a late-game boost.
After 1500 you have the Reform, Counterreform, Colonialism, the raise of the Ottomans, Russia and Sweden. That´s why I propouse a Colonialism type of Spaceship Win, with explorers like Magallanes or Cabot as Spaceship Parts. And also the Diplo win, that is constructing the Westphalia treaty to pic a winner.
Also colonialism can bring different things, not only luxuries like silk or, gold or spices, but also sugar, potato and bananas. This could be use also with the new religions to be a late-game boost.
onedreamer
Dragon
the reformation and counterriformation are a particular event and moment of the history of Europe that in my opinion are too big a change compared to the previous millennia. Technically it is better to just stop a medieval mod in 1500, and make a renaissance one starting from here.
Craig_Sutter
Deity
I'd go with 1500 AD or so, even a little earlier... many think the medieval era ended with the fall of Constantinople... that also gets us to the conclusion of the reconquista. I don't know if bringing in a bunch of new units/resources/buildings/religions so near the end of the game is particularly useful. And other mods cover the renaissance, etc. This is, after all, a medieval mod.
I, for one, will likely turn off the space ship victory, anyhow... from a game perspective, Spain probably won that one... and where did it get them.
Any plans to simulate the War of the Roses, peasant uprisings, various heresies and crusades (not just the holy land, but other pre-protestant heretical groups such as the hussites). The French Popes? Also barbarian infiltrations like the Magyars. The plague and its effect on value of labour.
Also, a couple of wonders: London Bridge, Tower of London perhaps.
I, for one, will likely turn off the space ship victory, anyhow... from a game perspective, Spain probably won that one... and where did it get them
.Any plans to simulate the War of the Roses, peasant uprisings, various heresies and crusades (not just the holy land, but other pre-protestant heretical groups such as the hussites). The French Popes? Also barbarian infiltrations like the Magyars. The plague and its effect on value of labour.
Also, a couple of wonders: London Bridge, Tower of London perhaps.
onedreamer
Dragon
my plan is to represent the world of feudalism/vassalage, monarchy, holy crusades. I'm not interested in stuff like the war of the roses as that is History. This is supposed to be a game not a replay of history. The war of the roses may happen on itself during the game ... you can even call it war of the whateveryouwant Same goes for French Popes. On the other hand social events like plagues, peasant uprisings maybe barbarians and heresy are definitely interesting and doable so I shall think if I find a (easy) way to implement them.
Same goes for French Popes. On the other hand social events like plagues, peasant uprisings maybe barbarians and heresy are definitely interesting and doable so I shall think if I find a (easy) way to implement them.
Craig_Sutter
Deity
War of the Roses was actually a civil war... I suppose I mean, could dynastic conflicts such of that somehow be represented.
On the otherhand, maybe the Anarchy period itself between civics is representative of such...
On the otherhand, maybe the Anarchy period itself between civics is representative of such...
@Polietileno:
Your arguments for a later end are exactly my arguments against it; that is, many new things happening that would require game mechanics to represent them. For gameplay, I'm not positive to bringing in new resources, religions, and units, towards the end of the game.
Anyway, if you're convinced in this, I encourage you to make a modified version extending to 1648, based on my mod once I release it.
@Craig Sutter:
Many of the things you mention are a bit hard to represent but you can trust that I've considered them and keep considering them. Like onedreamer I try to think in terms of general trends and phenomena rather than events, places and personalities. The idea of a historical computer game is to be able to reshape history by your own decisions, so things must not be overly rigid and prescribed.
Your arguments for a later end are exactly my arguments against it; that is, many new things happening that would require game mechanics to represent them. For gameplay, I'm not positive to bringing in new resources, religions, and units, towards the end of the game.
Anyway, if you're convinced in this, I encourage you to make a modified version extending to 1648, based on my mod once I release it.
@Craig Sutter:
Many of the things you mention are a bit hard to represent but you can trust that I've considered them and keep considering them. Like onedreamer I try to think in terms of general trends and phenomena rather than events, places and personalities. The idea of a historical computer game is to be able to reshape history by your own decisions, so things must not be overly rigid and prescribed.
Polietileno
Sleep Is For The Weak
@hr_oskar:
I´ll make a extended version of what you guys are making, and also I´ll contribute to the debate and ideas for this mod.
I´ll make a extended version of what you guys are making, and also I´ll contribute to the debate and ideas for this mod.
