Middle Age Mod... interested?

I think an additional religion, Nordic Pantheism, might be a good idea... the Anglo-Saxons/Vikings, Germanic peoples held similar beliefs that could be rationalized as some sort of over-arching religion... and such beliefs lasted well into the 11th century, well within the time period envisioned. One could argue the catch-all of Paganism contains these beliefs, but it seems that the active attacks against christian religious centers, while motivated by profit, rape and pillage, also had overtones of religious difference, making the religion more than just local cults.

Similarly, Druidism is a possibility, although it may have died out in most areas of Europe by the mod's beginning... although the Picts were still around as a seperate civilization at the earlier parts, and not totally Christianized.
 
@Craig Sutter

I am including a Royal Mint national wonder in my mod. It can only be built in your capital and provides +1 trade routes in all cities. I don't think I will feature a Mint building though.

Holy War will likely be a civic as well and possibly Inquisition. Depends on if I can find more suitable ways to simulate the inquisition. Elected Monarchy will be featured one way or another.

I don't intend to have any pagan faith as a religion in the game. Historically there were a myriad of pagan belief system particular to the various cultures of Europe; not just Nordic, also Baltic (Lithuania remained pagan until the 14th c., longest of all European nations), Slavonic, Cuman, Pecheneg, Tatar, Khazar. Druidism would be anachronistic in any case since most of the Celtic people were Christian by 6th century.

Besides paganism there are too many potential religions: Manichaeism and Gnosticism in particular. Also loads of smaller Christian sects, heresies, independent churches etc: Arians, Cathars, Copts, Bogomils, Hussites, etc etc.

The approach that I've decided to take on religion is that I'm simulating the spread of religious authority with a standardized rite, clerical hierarchy, central leadership and one ritual language (Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Arabic). Thus, "no religion" is taken to represent an unspecified mixture of pagans, heretics, independent Christians, Gnostics, etc.

As for monastic orders, then yes I want to feature them prominently in the mod. A minor problem is that orders were particularly prolific in the Catholic church but much less so in Eastern Orthodoxy for example, so I'm a bit worried about imbalancing the religions in some way. However I'm starting to see that as a nice opportunity to make the religions play out in different ways and offer different strategies for them.

I initially designed the monastic orders as world wonders ("The Benedictine Order", "The Franciscan Order", "The Knights Templar", "The Hashishin", "The Whirling Dervishes") but I'm not quite happy with that because the orders were international and generally quite decentralized. Therefore I'm now designing buildings particular to each order instead of the wonders; thus, 'Benedictine Monastery', 'Templar House', 'Bektashi Monastery', etc.

The orders that I intend to include so far are:

Catholics
Benedictines, Cistercians, Franciscans, Dominicans; Templars, Hospitallers, Teutonic Knights, possibly Knights of Calatrava
Orthodox
Few obvious possibilities... might end up having no orders and compensating them with a strong generic monastery
Sunni Islam
Assassins
Shi'a Islam
Bektashi, Mevlevi (Whirling Dervishes)
 
@Shqype:

I'm glad you liked the BMP's, hope they are proving useful to some people. They could definitely be improved, particularly the height map, but I mostly meant to demonstrate the possibility and leave it to others to perfect the source maps.

I initially made a Europe map from those BMPs to serve for this mod, but although it looked nice and all, I'm abandoning it. The reason is that the world map uses a Mercator projection which really doesn't work well for Europe, because it makes a monster out of Scandinavia in relation to the Mediterranean. That's not good news for a medieval mod, since Sweden and Finland were relatively unimportant in relation to the more southern lands.

Therefore I'm preparing a new map based on an equidistant projection, it will be much nicer. I'm aiming for a size somewhere around 75*58 or thereabouts; that may be too modest for some people's tastes but I really care about game speed and my computer is no Deep Blue, believe me ;)

Hopefully I'll be able to post screenshots of my current tech tree soon.

You were wondering about which civs I'd feature...

The following are the "core" nations, which are AI playable and therefore likely to come up in a random game:

England
France
Denmark
Germany
Italy
Papacy
Aragon
Castile
Hungary
Poland
Russia
Byzantium
Moors
Turks
Arabs

The rest are playable by the human only so they won't appear randomly, although they may of course appear in scenarios:

Sweden
Norway
Scotland
Ireland
Basques (Navarre)
Portugal
Burgundy
Switzerland
Frisia
Sicily
Bohemia
Lithuania
Croatia
Serbia
Bulgaria
Armenia
Georgia
Khazars
Volga-Bulgars

Added:
Wales
Albania
 
@Laurino:

If you're working on such a large mod with many features, I'm sure we'll be able to exchange some graphics and resources for mutual benefit. I've done a lot of research on the time period and might be able to answer historical questions.

My own design philosophy is more like "less is more" so I definitely won't have as many as 50+ resources, 100+ units, hundreds of techs and buildings, etc. I want to focus on the relevant things and make good gameplay.

In any case, I'm sure we'll benefit by co-operating on the things we both judge as important. I definitely want to make something more out of religious institutions, compared to vanilla Civ4, as you suggest.
 
No Wales? I would have thought they'd be at least as powerful as the Basques and Friesians.
 
Hehe, ok I'll add Wales. You're right, they held onto their lands for quite a while against the English, still retain a separate identity, and are of course notable for their archery :)

The point of the second list of civs is especially to let any European play with the nation they most closely identify with historically. So if somebody feels they're being left out that by itself is ground for considering them.

That's actually my main reason for including the Frisians - for the Dutch to identify with. The Frisians were only influential in the early middle ages as traders. While the Netherlands were an important and wealthy region early on, they never existed as an independent state, so I'm left with the Frisians as the only option.
 
Croatia, Serbia, and Bulgaria, but no Albania? Come on man, Albania had a much more significant role during the 1400s than the first three!
 
Yay! Finally someone willing to include Wales. It always annoys me to see people happy to consider Scotland (because of the film Braveheart) and Ireland (because they're independent in the modern world) but never Wales, despite the fact that historically they played a similar role and have kept their culture and language better than the other two... Irish is spoken by more but is in a less secure condition (far fewer in comparison to the population of the country), while Gaelic is spoken by less than a quarter as many.
 
@Shqype:

Ok, I'll add Albania then, with Skanderbeg as leader of course.

I assure you I did consider Albania and read up on the nation's medieval history. In the end I left them out simply because there was never a specifically Albanian kingdom during the whole period. Skanderbeg was, as far as I understand, primarily the leader of a rebellion against the Turks.

That said, the nation existed, had its language and Illyrian heritage and we could very reasonably imagine an alternate history with a strong Albanian kingdom... and what's Civ about if not to make alternate history? ;)

Don't belittle the Serbs, Croats and Bulgarians though. Each of them had strong kingdoms/empires at some point in medieval history and were clearly considered separate nations in the middle ages.
 
I did a little more research on Islam and Eastern Orthodoxy looking for possible religious orders or something of the sort...

The Eastern Church clearly never had monastic orders but monasticism was nonetheless very established. Gameplaywise, I plan for them to have just a generic 'Orthodox Monastery' which would combine some abilities of the different Catholic monasteries; and there will of course be the Mount Athos wonder as a sort of super monastery.

Islamic monasticism is essentially Sufism which is considerably apart from mainstream Islam, but nonetheless very influential in its history and in particular in Ottoman Islam (in Albania for example). The Bektashi and the Mevlevi aka Whirling Dervishes are the two most notable orders.
 
BTW, here's the source map I'm going to be using. I'm working on converting it right now...
 

Attachments

  • Europe.jpg
    Europe.jpg
    47.9 KB · Views: 70
hr_oskar said:
In any case, I'm sure we'll benefit by co-operating on the things we both judge as important.

Good! It's probably better that way, as we seem to be prioritizing two different approach.

Any time you need help, always feel free...;)

As for myself, I fleshed out the "basics", and will post a thread in the modpack section hopefuly early this week, to get that 0.1 beta version out asap. I really wanna go "public" with this mod, making it evolve with people's input... A bit like TAM youknow... Cuz after all, everything I learned about moding Civ 4 was with TAM, wich is, without a doubt a really impressive mod.

thanks for the people who posted ideas, and for the PMs I received, it certainly is helpfull!

So expect to see a new thread in the Complete Mod section!!!!!!!


(I link it with this one of course)
 
hr_oskar said:
@Shqype:

Ok, I'll add Albania then, with Skanderbeg as leader of course.

I assure you I did consider Albania and read up on the nation's medieval history. In the end I left them out simply because there was never a specifically Albanian kingdom during the whole period. Skanderbeg was, as far as I understand, primarily the leader of a rebellion against the Turks.

That said, the nation existed, had its language and Illyrian heritage and we could very reasonably imagine an alternate history with a strong Albanian kingdom... and what's Civ about if not to make alternate history? ;)

Don't belittle the Serbs, Croats and Bulgarians though. Each of them had strong kingdoms/empires at some point in medieval history and were clearly considered separate nations in the middle ages.
Thanks for taking the Albanians into consideration. Much of the time they were fighting amongst each other, just like the rest of Europe in feudalistic times (you can see the various "states" in some maps). But Gjergj Kastrioti did unite all the clans and the tribes and consolidated political and military power for the Albanians into 1 entity; so you can consider that an Albanian "state" that was supported by King Alfonso of Naples, although it didn't last half a century.

Before that, however, there were the kingdoms of Arbnia (also set up by Italians). Check out this small portion of a timeline:
Spoiler :



History > Chronology of Events
1081

Albania and Albanians are mentioned for the first time in a historical record, by Byzantine emperor.

Twelfth Century

Serbs occupy parts of northern and eastern Albanian inhabited lands.

1204

Venice wins control over most of Albania, but Byzantines regain control of the southern portion and establish the Despotate of Epirus.

1272

Forces of the King of Naples occupy Durrës and establish the Kingdom of Arbëria, the first Albanian kingdom since the fall of Illyria.

1385

Albanian ruler of Durrës invites Ottoman forces to intervene against a rival.

1389

Albanians join Serbian-led Balkan army that is defeated by Ottoman forces at the Battle of Kosova.

1403

Gjergj Kastrioti is born.

1443

After losing a battle near Nis, Skenderbeg with a group of Albanian warriors defect from the Ottoman army and return to Kruja.

1444

Albanian principalities unite at Lezha under Skenderbeg, who is proclaimed chief of Albanian resistance.

1449

Albanians, under Skenderbeg, rout Ottoman forces under Sultan Murat II.

1468

Skenderbeg dies.

1478

Kruja falls to Ottoman Turks; Shkodra falls a year later. Subsequently, many Albanians flee to southern Italy, Greece, Egypt, and elsewhere; many remaining are forced to convert to Islam.


I wasn't trying to belittle the Bulgarians, Croatians, or Serbs, I was simply stating that the Albanians did more for Europe (especially against the Ottomans) than they did. :)

hr_oskar, Bektashi-ism is the most liberal form of Islam; it was the official religion of the Janissary Corps. Because it was the closest form of Islam to Christianity, it was much easier for Christians to become Janissaries under this new Islamic sect.
 
Just like with TAM...the more I read the more I learn. These historical mods are terrific!

Any thoughts to doing some cut scenes or still screens when you encounter a new civ for the first time in your game? Maybe when you "meet" the Albanians a pop-up screen would appear telling of their history. A simple click will make it go away, but it is a powerful learning tool.
 
Just a few ideas for the mod... these taken from an unfinished Civ III mod of mine. They're just a bunch of ideas that may or may not fit with your mod. They are not particularly developed, and may be suitable to replace more modern wonders, to expand the medieval and earlier eras with suitable techs. Anyhow, I've written a bunch of items from my old mod for your perusal. Should you like any of them, I'll be glad to go through a few ideas about how these improvements/techs/game items could be fit into your mod.

Tech...Earthworks prereq for Agriculture
Improvements: Hill Fort (some small defensive features), National Wonder: Great Dyke (as Offa's Dyke and the Daneverk) (this may work better with the Warlord's expansion and the effects of the Great Wall wonder..)

Tech... Heraldry
Improvements: National Wonder: College of Heralds (perhaps gives a diplomatic benefit)
Unit: Herald (spy?, replace explorer)

Improvement: Tourney, National Wonder: Royal Tourney (perhaps with Heraldry or Chivalry)

Improvement: Keep (replaces Hill Fort... perhaps fights corruption, necessary for Castle), with Masonry?

Farmers Market:

Smithy:

Scriptorium: Needs monastery... needed for Monastic School

Monastic School (Seminary?), prereq for university (most universities developed from religious educational institutions

Chapter House: allows building of religious fightin units (crusaders, jihadist, etc)

Mead Hall:

Jarlshof/Clan Hall... couple of equivalents to forbidden Palace I used in the old mod.

Sherrif's Castle, Bailif's Office... from Royal Estate Tech, perhaps

Wonders: Domesday Book, History of the Venerable Bede, Bayeaux Tapestry, Lief Ericksonn's Voyage,

Tech: Seafaring (allows certain Naval Promotions, perhaps... after Sailing.
Crop Rotation (don't know where this would fit in... allows irrigation, or improves gain from Farm improvement???)
Seigecraft (Trebuchet perhaps... higher city Raider promotions???)
Architecture: Allows certain Church buildings??
Alchemy: prereq for some science based techs, gunpowder perhaps
Astrology: Who knows???
Armour and Stirrups (you likely have these)
Nobility - allows various proto-knights... pre req for later Feudal related teechs
Eccleseastic Estates - Needed for Monastic fighting orders, Abbey Improvement
Baronial Estates - Allows Parliament National Wonder... Magna Carta great wonder
Manorial System
Royal Estates - Creates Shire system
The above four seperated the Feudal system into different techs...sort of derived from Medieval Total War

Natural Harbour... actually a coastal resource (untradable) that indicates an excellent anchorage... cities adjacent to it build harbour more quickly (and perhaps gain trade advantages or defensive benefits)

Amber resource (important in the Baltic area)

Religions: Roman Catholicism, Celtic/Irish Church (Catholic, but could be considered seperate... not certain how strong their relation to the Papacy was)

Units: Thrall (a slave worker (maybe captured military units?)
Clansman
Gestir (viking royal retainer)
Bondi (viking freeman)
Hirmenn (viking freeman)
Thegn (proto-knight)
Frankish Axeman
Irish Kern (javelineer/skirmisher)
Frankish Knight (proto-knight...think Song of Roland)
Karv (coastal viking trading ship), Knorr (viking merchant vessel), Drakkar (sic. Longship), Dragon Boat (high transport capacity viking craft)
Fyrdsman (spearwielding, feudal levy)
Norman Knight (should you include the Normans seperately)
Ceorl (Saxon/Anglo-saxon freeman)
Hersir (viking fighter)

Religious fighting units: berserkers, crusaders, etc... should be limited in number (similar to missionaries), but better than the normal unit of their type... crusaders should be improved knights for example.

Anyhow, there's a bunch of things for you to look over... hope you find some of the ideas useful.
 
oops, tripple post (having computer problems)
 
oops, double post (post below)
 
I'm very interested in a medieval mod! But all I can do is support you with ideas.

Here are some ideas for civics:

feudal system (low upkeep for units, but high corruption)
national state (reduces corruption)
vasallage (same as civ 4)
investiture (religious buildings give you extra gold)
Magna Charta (increases happiness)
slavery (same as in Civ 4)
aristocracy (same as caste system in Civ 4)
serfdom (same as in Civ 4)
craftsmanship (increases production in cities)
crop rotation (doubles output of farms)
tax system (increases gold income per city)
Hanse (low upkeep for ships, extra gold for harbour, lighthouse)
organized Religion (same as in Civ 4)
Inquisition (reduces corruption per religious building)
Crusades (like theocracy in civ 4)

Some ideas for techs:

Caronlingian architecture
Romanic architecture
Gothic architecture (Notre Dame)
Arabic architecture
Arabian medicine
Scholastic

ideas for ships:

curagh (irish boat)
knorr (viking trading ship)
kogg (trading ship, used by the Hanse)
viking longship

ideas for leaders:

Charlemange (French)
Friedrich Barbarossa (Germans)
Richard Lionheart (English)
Alexander Nevski (Russians)

I hope, you can use some of them.
 
Top Bottom