Milestones and Yardsticks

[Mr. Shadows]

I'm wondering what early goals people set for themselves to determine if they have a strong start. For example, the rule of thumb in Civ V was that you wanted to build your National College by turn 100. If done properly that put you in a position to snowball past the ai. Personally, in VI, I've been aiming to have around 10 cities by turn 100. That's not a hard number but it seems to provide me with enough leverage to win reliably on Deity. Any thoughts? What do you look for as you transition from the early game to the mid-game that tells you you're off to a good start?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Ten cities by turn 100 (standard/normal speed) seems to be a common goal for players on this forum. Doing this via wiping out 1-2 Civs with early rushes and settling near key luxury/strategic resources is the most efficient and the usual way of doing this.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

Ten cities by turn 100 (standard/normal speed) seems to be a common goal for players on this forum. Doing this via wiping out 1-2 Civs with early rushes and settling near key luxury/strategic resources is the most efficient and the usual way of doing this.

I've come to the same conclusion. The surest way to beat the ai is to out-expand it. It isn't quite that simple but it's close.

 

[Wr4ith]

Because in civ 5 it was the best (and only competitive) tactic. Since tall vs wide artificial division is over, you have tons of possibilities so there is no real milestones, it depends on what victory you pursue. Good key is to check eurekas and inspirations, if you can't get the easier ones (especially depended on build something) that means you fall behind in production or pursue other things too much (got too much sci/culture compared to production- that isnt good in civ 6).

 

[Mr. Shadows]

Because in civ 5 it was the best (and only competitive) tactic. Since tall vs wide artificial division is over, you have tons of possibilities so there is no real milestones

This definitely isn't true; there are always indicators of success. I think the number of cities you have is a good one, although the number 10 is arbitrary. Arbitrary, but still a good approximation.

key is to check eurekas and inspirations, if you can't get the easier ones (especially depended on build something) that means you fall behind in production or pursue other things too much (got too much sci/culture compared to production- that isnt good in civ 6).

I disagree here as well. Eurekas are nice and all but secondary. Unlike 5 there isn't a very strong emphasis on advancing through the tech tree. On the contrary you have a strong incentive NOT to because it inreases district cost. At least in the early game most of them are a distraction and you're better off ignoring them.

 

[Victoria]

you have tons of possibilities so there is no real milestones

On prince you are pretty much fine taking this approach. You can mess around and have great fun enjoying the game. There is no dooming pressure of loosing quickly. It is hard to place a measure on this as there are many.

As you raise higher it gets harder to "have a strong start" whatever that means. You need to understand what the AI is benefiting from and what it suffers from to be able to judge.

In essence it benefits from extra settlers and warrior and builder and bigger and bigger % increase benefits from food, science, everything. What it suffers from is the inability to expand past about 5 cities initially, its inability to fight and its inability to build a decent city infrastructure.

You can win on Deity without fighting much if you expand fast enough to be able to outproduce and out build but it is not easy and so people tend to conquer a few close cities/civs first.

So on higher levels than prince you need to start judging how many cities you have at the end of about turn 100. We use 100 here as an unagreed simple yardstick you ask for time wise. Equally you could say 10 cities is double the AI so is a strong / super strong start. You are expected to have built your cities fairly well so you could say in king 6 cities, etc.
Whatever number you end up with the yardstick is simplest put as cities at 100 turns.

Science is nowhere near as important as it was and even civics. yes you need to race them at some stage but they cripple you if you start to race them too early due to the cost of districts being based on the amount of science and culture you have when you start building it. Size has some importance but not really a huge amount like number of cities does due to district benefits.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I disagree here as well. Eurekas are nice and all but secondary. Unlike 5 there isn't a very strong emphasis on advancing through the tech tree. On the contrary you have a strong incentive NOT to because it inreases district cost. At least in the early game most of them are a distraction and you're better off ignoring them.

I agree. You need a plan and need to stick with the research path and civics path in that plan. If you can get eurekas and inspirations, especially those on your research/civics path, that is great, but don't deviate from your plan. Especially do not get eurekas or inspirations that slow down the implementation of your plan. This, I believe, is what Mr. Shadows describes as a distraction.

 

[jollywonk]

I think it's hammers in this game, cities x hammers is like Newton's 2nd law of motion, Force = Mass * Acceleration. How quickly can I get 6+ cities above 7 pop and 30 hammers?

If you can do that, while prioritizing Apprenticeship and getting Universities up, you're on track. There's room to vary off that - you can go get crossbows first - but you have to get universities going. If I find myself at turn 80 (online speed) with the capital making 25 hammers and the rest 15-20 hammers, it's generally a rough low-production game.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

I agree. You need a plan and need to stick with the research path and civics path in that plan. If you can get eurekas and inspirations, especially those on your research/civics path, that is great, but don't deviate from your plan. Especially do not get eurekas or inspirations that slow down the implementation of your plan. This, I believe, is what Mr. Shadows describes as a distraction.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

 

[Soffacet]

Factories are the breakthrough that transforms almost all previously impractical hammer investments into viable possibilities. So I would start logging the turn you hit Industrialization. Or probably more accurately, the turn that you complete >N factories.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

On prince you are pretty much fine taking this approach. You can mess around and have great fun enjoying the game. There is no dooming pressure of loosing quickly. It is hard to place a measure on this as there are many.

As you raise higher it gets harder to "have a strong start" whatever that means. You need to understand what the AI is benefiting from and what it suffers from to be able to judge.

In essence it benefits from extra settlers and warrior and builder and bigger and bigger % increase benefits from food, science, everything. What it suffers from is the inability to expand past about 5 cities initially, its inability to fight and its inability to build a decent city infrastructure.

You can win on Deity without fighting much if you expand fast enough to be able to outproduce and out build but it is not easy and so people tend to conquer a few close cities/civs first.

So on higher levels than prince you need to start judging how many cities you have at the end of about turn 100. We use 100 here as an unagreed simple yardstick you ask for time wise. Equally you could say 10 cities is double the AI so is a strong / super strong start. You are expected to have built your cities fairly well so you could say in king 6 cities, etc.
Whatever number you end up with the yardstick is simplest put as cities at 100 turns.

Science is nowhere near as important as it was and even civics. yes you need to race them at some stage but they cripple you if you start to race them too early due to the cost of districts being based on the amount of science and culture you have when you start building it. Size has some importance but not really a huge amount like number of cities does due to district benefits.

As you raise higher it gets harder to "have a strong start" whatever that means. You need to understand what the AI is benefiting from and what it suffers from to be able to judge.

In essence it benefits from extra settlers and warrior and builder and bigger and bigger % increase benefits from food, science, everything. What it suffers from is the inability to expand past about 5 cities initially, its inability to fight and its inability to build a decent city infrastructure.

You can win on Deity without fighting much if you expand fast enough to be able to outproduce and out build but it is not easy and so people tend to conquer a few close cities/civs first.

So on higher levels than prince you need to start judging how many cities you have at the end of about turn 100. We use 100 here as an unagreed simple yardstick you ask for time wise. Equally you could say 10 cities is double the AI so is a strong / super strong start. You are expected to have built your cities fairly well so you could say in king 6 cities, etc.
Whatever number you end up with the yardstick is simplest put as cities at 100 turns.

Science is nowhere near as important as it was and even civics. yes you need to race them at some stage but they cripple you if you start to race them too early due to the cost of districts being based on the amount of science and culture you have when you start building it. Size has some importance but not really a huge amount like number of cities does due to district benefits.

This is what I'm trying to get at. The essential way to win on Deity is to out-expand the ai regardless of victory type. Ten cities gives you a comfortable margin for error. One hundred turns is a nice round number and it comes right around the time that you're transitioning from early to mid-game. Simply put, what should your goal be during the early game. You could say to a player that was having trouble with higher difficulties "See if you can own 10 cities by turn 100." I was late to the party for BNW and the critical piece of advice that got me wins at higher levels was "found four cities and build your National College by turn 100". Once I understood why that was important the rest of the mechanics unraveled for me. I think we can establish an equivalent paradigm that will make for a fundamentally sound game. Civ V was ruled by beakers, and the way to get beakers was to ASAP the NC and maximize that city's pop to take advantage of the multiplier. In VI your yields are determined by districts and total population. The way to maximize that is to found as many cities as you can in the early game so that each can have several districts mid-game. I think that's the basic understanding one needs to win in VI. I'm certainly open to ideas but that's how I see the basics of this game.

Factories are the breakthrough that transforms almost all previously impractical hammer investments into viable possibilities. So I would start logging the turn you hit Industrialization. Or probably more accurately, the turn that you complete >N factories.

This makes for an excellent mid-game goal. I think a fundamental basic beyond early expansion is placing your cities to maximize the coverage from your industrial and entertainment districts. That's the critical thing to consider over resources when founding and adjacency bonuses when building. Once you're cities are covered by multiple factories I think you should have decisive control of the game. A given turn is harder to nail down here partly because they come much later but also because you don't really need them for religious victories. Keep in mind a religious player wants a lot of cities because that allows for a lot of holy districts. That play style relies on faith far more than hammers though, so while factories and power plants are still very powerful they don't directly influence the victory. If someone thinks they have a specific time that they should be on-line for anything else I'd like to hear it. They signal the end of the game the same way Research Labs did in V; it's still going to take a number of turns but you should have a clear way to end the game in sight.

 

[elitetroops]

This makes for an excellent mid-game goal. I think a fundamental basic beyond early expansion is placing your cities to maximize the coverage from your industrial and entertainment districts. That's the critical thing to consider over resources when founding and adjacency bonuses when building. Once you're cities are covered by multiple factories I think you should have decisive control of the game. A given turn is harder to nail down here partly because they come much later but also because you don't really need them for religious victories.

Not necessarily much later. I've unlocked factories by turn 100 at best. In science games I usually aim at BC Industrialization, that would be by t115, preferably a few turns before that. With 10 cities by t100 and a few early campuses it usually works. In a good game the first few factories can be built already in the BCs.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

Not necessarily much later. I've unlocked factories by turn 100 at best. In science games I usually aim at BC Industrialization, that would be by t115, preferably a few turns before that. With 10 cities by t100 and a few early campuses it usually works. In a good game the first few factories can be built already in the BCs.

Thanks for this. You've got me beat by a good 40 turns on that. How many campuses how early? I know I built two in my current game while my army was working but I haven't been emphasizing them. Also, how many cities do you end up with for a non-dom victory? More cities means more power but at what point do you think it becomes redundant?

 

[elitetroops]

Turn 100 Industrialization was in 6otM 01. I made a write-up about the first 100 turns here. T100 I had 9 cities and 6 campuses, but one city with a Campus was captured that same turn, so it was really 8 cities and 5 Campuses that got me there. Having 6 envoys in one scientific city state and 3 in another for +6 science/Campus certainly helped.

In a science victory I want at least 15 cities. I prefer 20 if possible. When to stop expanding is difficult to decide. Usually some cities are added to fill in the gaps in my core once the first Power Plants are up. Maybe I should do this earlier. I've only played one Culture victory, that one was entirely peaceful and I think I ended up with 9 cities. Only 6 cities by turn 100. In that game I had Industrialization around turn 120.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

Turn 100 Industrialization was in 6otM 01. I made a write-up about the first 100 turns here. T100 I had 9 cities and 6 campuses, but one city with a Campus was captured that same turn, so it was really 8 cities and 5 Campuses that got me there. Having 6 envoys in one scientific city state and 3 in another for +6 science/Campus certainly helped.

In a science victory I want at least 15 cities. I prefer 20 if possible. When to stop expanding is difficult to decide. Usually some cities are added to fill in the gaps in my core once the first Power Plants are up. Maybe I should do this earlier. I've only played one Culture victory, that one was entirely peaceful and I think I ended up with 9 cities. Only 6 cities by turn 100. In that game I had Industrialization around turn 120.

Thanks a whole lot. It looks like one of the big things I can do to finish earlier is to start building more campuses earlier. Up until now I've been very military with my early build order because I wasn't sure how hard Deity was going to be. I'm also sure I don't need as many units as I've been making for a peaceful VC. Now I know I can win so I may as well work on how fast I can finish.

 

[Bowman in a Bad Mood]

Once one has reached the number of cities you wanted, how much military should one keep?

 

[Mr. Shadows]

Once one has reached the number of cities you wanted, how much military should one keep?

As few as possible, but enough to explore, maintain visibility outside your borders and to deter the ai from attacking. I could easily have 15-20 units by the end of my early push. That's more than I need unless I'm doing a Dom sweep and I certainly don't need to upgrade all of them. Scouts are fine to maintain visibility. I guess I'll have to figure out what works but the ai isn't aggressive and I have a telling tech-lead by the time I transfer to peaceful play.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

I've had as few as 10 units by the end of my early conquests. Much of it depends on your positioning, in my experience. For example:

• You need very few troops if you conquered your starting landmass (usually on Continents or Island Plates maps);
• Just a little more if you manage to secure at least a corner of that landmass (Pangea maps).
• If you are right in the middle of your landmass, then you need more troops (in which case it's probably better to keep conquering until you reach one of the above, or go full Domination Victory)

 

[Lily_Lancer]

As a habit inherited from Civ5, I usually look at science per turn instead of number of cities to measure how well my development is.

For an average start I guess 100 science per turn on T100(assuming standard speed) is a fair number. No matter how many cities you have.

On strong enough starts you can get more than 1,000, but that's too strong starts.

 

[tetley]

If I start getting every wonder I want, I know I'm going to win that game. If I"m #1 in science, the game is won: I only play on for.the steam achievement.