Militarist plus what?

[walletta]

There seems to be a view that the militarist trait is the weakest or one of the weakest (subject to map, climate etc). My question is: assuming you have to play with one of the militarist civs, which is the best trait combo?

I am currently having fun with the Zulus because I like the cool black colour and the impi are fun. But having popped a few huts at the beginning the expansionist trait has well and truly worn off in the Industrial Era where the game presently sits and the long term effect of not having, say, the scientific or commercial traits, is being felt.

I am thinking it's probably one of:

industrial
commercial, or
scientific

but which and why? And maybe those aren't the best anyway. Civ-specific UUs come into it, of course.

 

[justanick]

Militaristic gives cheap harbours and coastal cities give good commerce, cheap libraries there can get you to cavalry soon for some nice german MGL. The panzer comes a bit late, but if you manage to wait that long they are really fun.

 

[templar_x]

and justanick is thinking Germany and not stating it...
t_x

 

[tjs282]

There seems to be a view that the militarist trait is the weakest or one of the weakest (subject to map, climate etc). My question is: assuming you have to play with one of the militarist civs, which is the best trait combo?

I am currently having fun with the Zulus because I like the cool black colour and the impi are fun. But having popped a few huts at the beginning the expansionist trait has well and truly worn off in the Industrial Era where the game presently sits and the long term effect of not having, say, the scientific or commercial traits, is being felt.

I am thinking it's probably one of:

industrial
commercial, or
scientific

but which and why? And maybe those aren't the best anyway. Civ-specific UUs come into it, of course.

Well let's just review (in no particular order), shall we?

• +EXP = Zulus -- no cheap buildings, and the EXP trait is as you say mostly useful only in the early game; the Impi is great for pillaging, but not so good for deliberately starting a GA, except on defence, unless it can find a convenient D=1 unit; 2 Wonders are needed for a Wonder-GA
• +EXP = Mongols -- the Keshik is a weker Knight-level UU, needs only Horses and can cross Mountains easily
• +COMM = Rome -- no cheap buildings, but the +1TPT in cities is good for the whole game, as is the increased OCN; great 1-dimensional warfare UU, albeit needs Iron and Ancient-Age GA is almost inevitable, unless you want to limit yourself to attacking using only Archers/Horses and defending with Spears; 2 Wonders are needed for a Wonder-GA
• +REL = Japan -- cheap Temples/Cathedrals for fast culture, to quell the towns you've captured, and fast gov-switches; Knight-level UU needs only(!) Iron, perfect for Med-Age GA; SoZ gives a single-Wonder GA, if you've got Ivory -- and so does KT, if you haven't...
• +IND = China -- fast terrain-improvements to boost your trade+shields in the early game; Knight-level UU (Iron+Horses) with +1MP, that can take AI cities in quick succession; GWall gives a single-Wonder GA
• +AGRI = Azteca -- fast growth/expansion, if you have freshwater; very early UU, but it's cheap and fast (excellent for exploring), and doesn't block an upgrade-path, so can also be held in reserve until you're ready to start your GA; 2 Wonders are needed for a Wonder-GA
• +SCI = Germany -- as described by Justanick; also, 2 Wonders are needed for a Wonder-GA -- BUT choosing them at higher levels means that they won't be assigned as an AICiv, armed with (multiple) Spears+Archers from the start...
• +SEA = Scandinavia -- no extra cheap buildings (in the early game), not so great on Pan/Continents; but BERSERKERS! which have a good chance of knocking down just about any unit that the Med-Age can muster...

Assuming that the goal was Dom/Conq, which of the MIL-Civs I'd pick would very much depend on what map settings I was using: on Tiny Pan/Cont maps, then I think I'd prefer the Zulus or Aztecs.

For a ~Standard Pan or Small Cont, probably Mongolia or Japan for the single-StratRes, fast UU and simple UU/Wonder Mid-Age GA possibility. If the map was all-Random apart from size, then definitely one of these two.

For a game that's likely to run longer (≥Large Pan, or ≥Standard 60% Cont), then China, and hope the PRNGods smile on me with StratRes availability; if significant late overseas wars might be needed (≥Standard Arch/Cont), then Germany at lower diffs (to do the research to get me overseas) or Rome at higher diffs (to buy the techs).

I'd probably only pick the Vikings for a ≤Standard, 70-80%-water Arch/Cont-map.

 

[walletta]

tjs282 - great stuff, as usual. Coupla dumbass questions if you don't mind:

1 what's OCN?
2 what's this about choosing the Germans to prevent the AI having them? Are they notoriously tough on high levels?

I think my long held bias in favour of might Rome is not displaced by your list, although I should have thought scientific or industrial to be natural companions to militarist (not sure why TBH)

The impi sure are grand though. Next time I play I will build more because they are good at keeping up with the horses and providing solidity while slower-moving garrison units catch up.

 

[tjs282]

tjs282 - great stuff, as usual. Coupla dumbass questions if you don't mind:

1 what's OCN?

OCN = Optimum City Number. As I understand it (and probably wrongly!) it's the breakpoint number of cities you can build/capture where corruption/waste will still be (relatively) easily manageable; once you pass the OCN, corruption/waste ramps sharply upwards in any cities further out from your capital than your 'OCN'th city.

OCN is set by map-size (smaller on smaller maps, larger on larger maps), and gets modified by the AI-cost-factor for the difficulty level. I can't remember exactly what the OCNs are for each map-size, but let's say that on a Standard map, OCN = 20 at Regent (AI cost-factor=100%): then on a Standard map at Emp (AI cost-factor=80%) you'll only get 20*0.8 = 16 uncorrupt towns, with the 17th being corrupt.

OCN is also halved until you've built your Forbidden Palace -- but you don't get (the prompt) to do that until you've founded/captured a number of cities ≥half the difficulty-modified OCN. So in the above example, you can build your FP once you own 10 cities at Regent, 8 at Emp. (I don't think OCN changes according to %water, but I'm sure someone knows for sure... ).

COMM civs get 25% extra uncorrupted cities, so on a Standard Regent map, the Romans would get 25 uncorrupt cities instead of 20, and at Emp they would get 20 instead of 16 -- that potentially means a lot more uncorrupted trade to convert to gold or beakers.

2 what's this about choosing the Germans to prevent the AI having them? Are they notoriously tough on high levels?

You do know that at Monarch+ the AICivs get extra starting units, right? And not just extra Worker(s) -- and Settler(s) at DG+ -- but also mil-units: the best (resourceless) 'attacker' and 'defender' units that they can build with their starting techs. (IIRC, they get 2 'defenders' at Monarch, 3 'defenders' + 1 'attacker' at Emp, 6 'defenders' + 3 'attackers' at DG, and even more at Deity and Sid)

Since the starting-units are resourceless, for a lot of Civs, that mostly means that they have lots of Warriors running around. But SCI-Civs start with Bronze, so get free Spears/ Hoplites/ NuMercs as their defenders -- and MIL-civs start with WarCode (except Japan => Wheel), giving them Archers. This makes the Germans (SCI+MIL) tougher to attack early on, and also more likely to DoW you at an early(er!) stage at higher levels, because they are more likely to rate their military as strong vs. yours, at least until you've been able to build up more than just a few pitiful Warriors...

Or maybe my paranoia is showing -- I just started a Random-DG game (got the Byzzies -- on a Pangaea ), and I have the Germans right next door to me, but so far (Turn 80 or thereabouts), Otto has been reasonable...

 

[walletta]

Ah, thanks. What do you mean by 'uncorrupted' towns/cities? Are they entirely free from corruption or rendered valueless by it? Usually, only my capital is completely without corruption. I am playing right now on a small map at emp. I googled this OCN thing before reading your post and discovered the OCN was 17. I am pretty sure I have about 35-40 towns/cities now and, under communism, admittedly with courthouses and, soon, police stations, they are functioning pretty well. But then I have built the FP so I guess that increased the OCN.

Take a tip from a master - never play random maps. Always stack the odds heavily in your favour In my current game I lined myself up against England (swiftly wiped out) Egypt (emasculated and down to two cities, with about 5 GWs purloined and soon to be wiped out) Portugal (alright, a bit of a nuisance but only until I have built my navy, presently consisting of one Carrack and a curragh I have put somewhere and can't find) Carthage and the Netherlands (pussycats).

 

[Lord AJ]

Ah, thanks. What do you mean by 'uncorrupted' towns/cities?

That means relatively less corrupted cities. Cities after the OCN are mostly worthless without courthouses etc.

 

[Lanzelot]

and a curragh I have put somewhere and can't find)

In such a case F3 is your friend

 

[walletta]

That means relatively less corrupted cities. Cities after the OCN are mostly worthless without courthouses etc.

In such a case F3 is your friend

Thanks both. Always a pleasure doing business with you

 

[justanick]

OCN = Optimum City Number. As I understand it (and probably wrongly!)

You are very wrong indeed. Nearly everything you state about corruption is seriosly flawed. Your definition of the abbreviation is correct, but everything after that is best ignored. The first thing you need to learn is that Nopt is something different than OCN. OCN does only depend on the map size. Nopt however is an attribute of a city:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=76619

but the +1TPT in cities is good for the whole game,

TPT? Is that 1 Turn per Turn?

I think you refer to the bonus in base commerce, but that is 2 in cities and 3 in metropolises. So metropolises give 6 base commerce before any further increasement from resources, seafaring, river, colossus, government or golden age apply. I hope i did not forget anything.

Now if your communist metropolis produces 24 base commerce outside the city tile and 6 instead of 3 in the city tile, than this 30 instead of 27, an increasement of 11.11%. The Nopt bonus of COM nearly vanishes during communism, but the commerce bonus itself is rather relevant. In the early game it is the other way around. The Nopt bonus remains more or less constant over the game, therefore its relative worth is greatest at the end of the ancient age. You have enough cities to profit from higher Nopt, but you still lack courthouses and the forbidden palace, not to mention the exorbitant increments in Nopt provided by communism.

 

[timerover51]

Hmm, if you work with the Editor at all, you can have more than 2 Civilization Traits to work with.

Also, I believe that the Sea-Faring Trait gives you cheap harbors and commercial docks as well.

 

[walletta]

You are very wrong indeed. Nearly everything you state about corruption is seriosly flawed. Your definition of the abbreviation is correct, but everything after that is best ignored. The first thing you need to learn is that Nopt is something different than OCN. OCN does only depend on the map size. Nopt however is an attribute of a city:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=76619



TPT? Is that 1 Turn per Turn?

I think you refer to the bonus in base commerce, but that is 2 in cities and 3 in metropolises. So metropolises give 6 base commerce before any further increasement from resources, seafaring, river, colossus, government or golden age apply. I hope i did not forget anything.

Now if your communist metropolis produces 24 base commerce outside the city tile and 6 instead of 3 in the city tile, than this 30 instead of 27, an increasement of 11.11%. The Nopt bonus of COM nearly vanishes during communism, but the commerce bonus itself is rather relevant. In the early game it is the other way around. The Nopt bonus remains more or less constant over the game, therefore its relative worth is greatest at the end of the ancient age. You have enough cities to profit from higher Nopt, but you still lack courthouses and the forbidden palace, not to mention the exorbitant increments in Nopt provided by communism.

Nopt? COM? I had better click on your link.

 

[justanick]

Nopt? I had better click on your link.

It is detailed in the link.

COM?

The commercial trait.

 

[Desertsnow]

For myself two of the civs that I play most are Celts (Militaristic-Religious) and Germany (Militaristic-Scientific), and I tend to win most with these. So, what am I doing right?

 

[timerover51]

For myself two of the civs that I play most are Celts (Militaristic-Religious) and Germany (Militaristic-Scientific), and I tend to win most with these. So, what am I doing right?

The Celts have a good Ancient Age offensive unit, and Religion gives you One-Turn Anarchy with government changes, so you can go with the optimum government for your peace-war situation.

With Germany, you get the Science boost.

As long as you do not play on mainly water maps, and stay with Pangaea, you should do well.

 

[walletta]

For myself two of the civs that I play most are Celts (Militaristic-Religious) and Germany (Militaristic-Scientific), and I tend to win most with these. So, what am I doing right?

Yeah, the Celts are very good, I agree. I don't think I've ever played the Germans. I'm put off by the UU. It must be one of the most useless.

 

[justanick]

For myself two of the civs that I play most are Celts (Militaristic-Religious)

In C3C 1.22 the Celts are AGRI instead if Militaristic.

The Celts have a good Ancient Age offensive unit, and Religion gives you One-Turn Anarchy with government changes,

In C3C 1.22 religios civs have 2 turn anarchy. That does even overwrite the maximum anarchy setting AI enjoys at higher difficulty setting.

 

[timerover51]

In C3C 1.22 the Celts are AGRI instead if Militaristic.



In C3C 1.22 religios civs have 2 turn anarchy. That does even overwrite the maximum anarchy setting AI enjoys at higher difficulty setting.

As far as I know, I have all of the latest official patches for Conquests, and if I am playing a civilization with the Religious Trait, I have One Turn of Anarchy with government changes, and sometimes not even that.

 

[justanick]

As far as I know, I have all of the latest official patches for Conquests, and if I am playing a civilization with the Religious Trait, I have One Turn of Anarchy with government changes, and sometimes not even that.

I doubt the later.

As for anarchy appearing to be one turn only, that is is question of how you measure it. If you measure it by turns without shields being produced, than it is 2 turns. Similar is true for contentness, food, culture and probably more. But for commerce and thus research there is an anomaly if you use the popup when researching a tech before the end of the turn. (Global) Commerce has been calculated already, but shields etc. are jet to be calculated after entering anarchy. So in a way you get only 1.75 turns of anarchy, depending on how you estimate the relative value of what has been lost and what would have been lost without the usage of the popup.