Military points factory (exploit?)

[alex sword]

I replayed the same map following the plan described above with following improvements:
1) only one "military points factory" was created, to reduce military support
2) Writing was top-priority in research, not Sailing as before (idea was simple - to chop/whip the libraries in captured capitals ASAP, scientists are immune against corruption and there is a lot of food resources near captured capitals)
3) I performed cottage spamming in my own capital only, and food spamming/chopping in captured cities, fortunately there are always workers in captured capitals)

It was something! By 1AD I've built 4 scientific academies, got 3 great generals (one was added to the army for extra-medic, two are instructors in my military city), built *ALL* ancient wonders + great library (thanks to Incas industrial trait plus stone/marble in captured capitals), have two religions (confucian and christian) and will have universities soon.

Demographic screen shows I am the best in economic, production, population and size, army size is third, but I can increase it any time. Right now no need - there is no neighbors on the continent.

I can choose any kind of victory I wish but, keeping in mind, my military points factory will generate at least a couple more of great generals before astronomy, I think I should use this advantage and start intercontinental war immediately after I've galleons. My well-promoted knights + fleet of privateers will check how strong Asoka is.

I think I should try how it works on Emperor. Monarch is too simple for Incas + quecha rush + early war + this exploit.

 

[alex sword]

50_dollar_bag: unfortunately, even if the remaining city (i.e. the GG factory) is of size 1 and I build a couple of wonders in their former capital nearly, I still can't reach it by culture boards by 1AD. They had a certain handicap in the beginning - it looks like palace was moved automatically as soon as they lost previous one, I can't imagine they built palace from scratch because it looks like the only sort of production they did were archers). Plus they are creative, I choose a wrong candidate.

So, next improvements are a) to perform great wonder and culture spam in their former capital and b) not to hire creative leader to GG factory.

And once again - - if you build GW - don't forget to protect your employees. As soon as you build the great wall, barbarians from the whole continent will start moving in the direction of their poor 1-size city. One axeman fortified in a right place is enough to stop barbs, just don't forget.

 

[gettingfat]

Maybe in the next patch Firaxis should create a special option: When the AI senses that you're doing something like that, the AI leader will offer capitulation, if you don't accept it the leader will commit suicide 2 turns later, the civ disappear and the city lose all defenders and buildings and if you still don't take it, your citizens will suffer -2 happiness and you will gain -2 dip rating penalty for inhumane action. But the citizens in that city will have a permanent -2 unhappiness for torturing their ancestors.

 

[CIVPhilzilla]

War weariness will hurt you more than the possible gain of a few exp. Doing a ceasefire will not help, as WW only decreases very slowly.

This tactic could make Police state a worthwhile civic. Being able to have a nearly unlimited source of XP points, and incredibly powerful siege units. Police State + Jail + Mount Rushmore = 0 WW.

 

[alex sword]

Hi again,

the point that I would get 2 military experience points attacking the factory from within my borders was not correct. Finally, I reached the factory by borders, but still get 1XP.

Anyway there is an advantage - I could attack with less upkeep. But it was not so great as expected.

 

[Lurking Liu]

LOL this is a big exploit. how come nobody at Firaxis thought of this?

Because it's a Win More exploit. It's not going to turn a losing game into a winning one, and it's not going to work with real players. In higher difficulty games, the AI will have more units and be able to counter-attack. Who cares?



I know when Cavalry withdraws from combat, the defender still gets an XP, do defenders get XP when siege units reach their damage capacity? If so, then there'll be problems.

 

[alex sword]

Liu, this game is the 'winning more" one, you are right. And this is not deity, right, only monarch. Anyway - Quecha rush start works even on Deity, I tried. However, the tech is problem later (on deity). So, the GG factory CAN be established on Deity. So, when you have no tech leadership, the GG factory could be a very significant advantage in cavarly wars (and later). Not 'Win More' but "Domination win' exploit.

About more units. More units = more archers (he has no resources and only one city of size 1) = more XP for yuor cats. So more = better for you. If he builds more archers you can handle with your cats - then kill the rest by your quechas and reduce archers amount to some manageable amount.

P.S. And defenders get no XP if catapult escapes which usually they do especially starting from 5 level and higher.

 

[Lurking Liu]

Oh, I'm not knocking what you found. Sorry if it sounded that way. No, I'm just saying that it's not a large enough exploit that people need that sort of "LAWLZ! How'd they miss this?!" reaction. They probably saw it and considered it not big enough to worry about.

 

[gettingfat]

I just find this..... boring to do, but if this is fun for you then go ahead.

 

[Zhahz]

I'd find it boring too. If you can dominate so much then why bother with exploiting? Victory is more satisfying when you actually earn it.

Seems like Firaxis overlooked the fact that without the ability to destroy units, siege shouldn't gain you GG points.

 

[hoopsnerd]

Yeah, and If I wanted to cheat, there is always WorldBuilder.

 

[gettingfat]

I'd find it boring too. If you can dominate so much then why bother with exploiting? Victory is more satisfying when you actually earn it.

Seems like Firaxis overlooked the fact that without the ability to destroy units, siege shouldn't gain you GG points.

I call this "beating the dead horse" exploit

I have to admit that toying with the weak once in a while does give me a weird form of satisfaction, though, just not going this far to the point you keep clicking the mouse repetitively till it becomes a chore.

 

[nightbringerggz]

Beating the dead horse is kind of the point with this exploit. Even on harder difficulties it shouldn't be too hard to either axe-rush for an early military farm, or find a single weak opponent around mid-game.

Now, it is a bit dull, but if you're going for a domination victory this XP farm is pretty useful. Set up a miliary production city near the farm, and use it a a training program to heavily upgrade assault forces for other wars.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

I think the only problem with what you're doing in the above screenshot is that you were unable to turn Monty into your whipping boy

 

[alex sword]

Guys, 1) I find that attack-clicking boring as well. The auto-attack and auto-healing options have to be provided in future civs. 2) The factory, if you open it in ancient age, will provide you with stack of elite catapults and at least 6-7 great generals by 1000ac (maraphon speed), this is a real advantage in cavarly wars and later 3) I am not sure if this one is exploit. Catapults did real attacks, why no experience should be gained. For me, this is a sort of very special training ground that provides military with experience which they can't get without wars. In real life, Russian officers who returned from Afghanistan are much more military-experienced than ones who did not see any war. Probably, it's true for USA army as well. But, don't you think that Afgan is a sort of Civ military factory?

 

[mudphud]

Like I mentioned in a different thread I think that it would reasonable if they changed it so that you only got exp/GG points for siege if the chance of withdrawal was less than some % like 95%. Certainly not a game breaking problem

I don't see anyway real conflicts can be compared to this as the US is not keeping troops in Afghanistan so the artillery can get some target practice and some generals can get more experience. Whatever people feel the US's motives are I doubt that many people will argue that.

 

[alex sword]

Why not? I agree with any rules which could be grounded on real life examples.

 

[axident]

Because it's a Win More exploit. It's not going to turn a losing game into a winning one, and it's not going to work with real players. In higher difficulty games, the AI will have more units and be able to counter-attack. Who cares?



I know when Cavalry withdraws from combat, the defender still gets an XP, do defenders get XP when siege units reach their damage capacity? If so, then there'll be problems.

I thought withdrawal means:

defender gets nothing

attacker gets 1 xp

 

[alex sword]

There are different rules for cavarly and for siege weapons due to their different initial strength.

 

[Lurking Liu]

I thought withdrawal means:

defender gets nothing

attacker gets 1 xp

Funny, I always thought the opposite =P

Although it's the way you have it, and it works the same for siege weapons, then there's serious exploit problems. (Note, only for withdrawing at 1hp, not for reaching your damage cap. That ought to give experience as if you'd won, not withdrawn) Not so much for cavalry, since the idea for them is to actually kill, not just do damage.