Military points factory (exploit?)

[jray]

Imagine what kind of civilization would develop in a city eternally surrounded by fierce enemies, where stone constantly rained from the sky. Dwellings must be under-ground, with people moving on the surface only occasionally. Surviving generations must have excellent situational awareness (the survivors were the ones who weren't crushed by rocks). They must also be quite resourceful to have survived hundreds of years with limited food and materials.

Unfortunately we do have places sorta like that in the real world, like the Middle East.

And not to rain on the parade of this exploit, but wouldn't it only be feasible if you were already dominating the game anyway (e.g., plenty of happiness, intimidated neighbors, etc.)?

 

[jkp1187]

Unfortunately we do have places sorta like that in the real world, like the Middle East.

And not to rain on the parade of this exploit, but wouldn't it only be feasible if you were already dominating the game anyway (e.g., plenty of happiness, intimidated neighbors, etc.)?

Right on both counts.

And just hope that the 'loser' civ isn't friendly with another, more powerful civ. It wouldn't be nice if they became a stronger civ's vassal -- and that civ declared war on you to save it's lil' buddy....

 

[mjs0]

hmmm...assuming the information I just gleaned from this post is accurate you can avoid the WW completely by building a sacrificial city in your own land then deliberately losing it to the defeated opponent.
Since you would be the cultural leader on the city tile you would not suffer the WW.
Now the interesting question is does the GG points doubling for the great wall really mean 'within your physical borders' or does it use the same rules as WW. I.e. you just have to be the cultural leader on that tile, even if you don't own it physically.

 

[Spiceweasel]

If you wanted to be a sadist about it, you could invest one of your great generals to create a Medic III unit, and gift it to your target-practice civ.

 

[nightbringerggz]

That would be a waste of a Medic 3 wouldn't it? As I understand it the artillery pieces aren't going to kill him anyway.

But the post regarding Cultural Ownership rather than physical ownership certainatly makes this more feasable. What you'd need to do is:
1) Plant a city near the targets borders in advance of the war, letting it build up a significant amount of culture (maybe with an artist bomb or two?).
2) Begin the war with the target and leave your sacrificial city open. (The goal at this point would be to send some raiders in to cut of your opponents supply of strategic resources)
3) After the sacrificial city is taken, weaken/kill the units guarding until only one is left, then leave some forces around the city. This will make sure they keep the city, but aren't able to strike out from it.
4) Eliminate the threat. At this point we could begin experimenting. I'm pretty sure you can't capture a capital by having it's citizen's revolt, so you might want to completely wipe out the target civ, leaving them only your sacrificial city. On the other hand, if it is the capital, it'll be gaining culture at a quicker rate and that'll mean that tile ownership will flip alot faster.

I won't be able to experiment until tonight, but I think I'm going to use World Builder to try it out.

 

[IronCrown]

I'm pretty sure you can't capture a capital by having it's citizen's revolt,

You can. I've seen several times how civs were 'eliminated' without a war

 

[nightbringerggz]

I've done some play testing, and it's possible to do this. Of course, I used the world builder to set up a perfect scenario.

All in all, I have to say that this would be really tough to do naturally. It'd take a huge amount of pre-planning and micromanagement, and probably a significant tech lead against one of your neighbors. If anybody want's to try here's my advice:

1) Plant your sacrificial city early.
2) Stock-pile a significant amount of gold for running your economy.
3) Take out your target's military resources quickly, then target his highest production cities.
4) Make sure your sacrificial city has only 2 population when it's captured, and don't develop the area around it. For best results, plant it in the middle of a jungle.

Honestly, I'm playing at Monarch level and I don't really see an opportunity to do this effectively in any of my games. If I'm lucky enough to have a start where I can box somebody into useless territory I'll set them up as a farm. Otherwise, I'll wreck my economy and fall too far behind everybody else.

 

[ezwip]

What he is saying is true and does work. I clued into this while playing the other night, after my huge stack of trebuchets were generating gg left and right. The majority of my cities had the military academy and instructor.

I was just playing on normal. With a big stack of artillery I could juice them pretty well. I'd keep attacking the city, and they kept pouring in units. Then the next turn I'd just blast them too. When they ran out of new units in the area to put in the city I'd kill them all off and burn it to the ground. After that it was a cakewalk conquering everything else. The biggest problem I see with this strategy is not the war weariness, but capitulation to another faction. Screwing around like this can easily put a superpower in your backyard. Also a couple of turns later after I stopped screwing around the French won a cultural victory in 1976.

 

[Riker]

You can do this in Rhye's and fall with Independent cities, without incurring in the 10 xp cap (I think). That's a huge exploit

 

[alex sword]

Imagine what kind of civilization would develop in a city eternally surrounded by fierce enemies, where stone constantly rained from the sky. Dwellings must be under-ground, with people moving on the surface only occasionally.

Al Kaeda, why not. Instead of iron or pigs, they will export heroin and cocaine. And I would like to take a look when someone gift them a little nuke.

Terrorism has to be added into Civ. Terrorists networks may appear with Radio and strengthened by Internet. Postmodern barbs. They are not controlled by AIs or human, like barbs. But - unlike barbs - they do not have any cities, they live in your cities. So they can't be military destroyed. I like this idea. The open question is how they should prioritize their targets and what they are able to do.

Hmm... Possible option - terrorist network is a sort of destructive AI which do not have any cities but spies could negotiate with them.

1) Plant your sacrificial city early.
2) Stock-pile a significant amount of gold for running your economy.
3) Take out your target's military resources quickly, then target his highest production cities.
4) Make sure your sacrificial city has only 2 population when it's captured, and don't develop the area around it. For best results, plant it in the middle of a jungle.

Uh-oh. It looks like this tactical exploit could be a core element of some strategy. not sure though if this plan is feasible at all.

The biggest problem I see with this strategy is not the war weariness, but capitulation to another faction.

It did not happen in my game. But you are right, it could happen in another one. However, if war in your game has been already started, and now only a couple of enemy cities remains, why not to establish the military factory? Just check who his friends are and ensure you can stand a war with them.

 

[ezwip]

It did not happen in my game. But you are right, it could happen in another one. However, if war in your game has been already started, and now only a couple of enemy cities remains, why not to establish the military factory? Just check who his friends are and ensure you can stand a war with them.

While I was focused on creating gg points and upgrading my artillery... France cakewalked to that early cultural victory. Had Brennus declared himself a vassal to France my only option would have been to continue the war with not only Brennus, but now France and two or more other factions. Either way you look at this my stalling and prolonging this conflict handed the win to someone else. This strategy looks very solid for an early war, but using it after 1500 is probably not the best idea unless you are going for conquest.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

I dunno how necessary this sacrificial city line of thought is. You gain WW from launching attacks on squares that culturally belong to someone other than you, but the amount gained is really tiny unless the unit you attacked with got destroyed. Actually taking a city, for instance, hits you with 6 times as much WW as simply attacking one does.

 

[alex sword]

This strategy looks very solid for an early war, but using it after 1500 is probably not the best idea unless you are going for conquest.

Touche! Each action performed is performed not for the sake of action, but for the sake of goal. Conquest is always prioritized option in my games. After all, that's why I select maraphon and that's why a great general factory is needed. If you've different priorities, perhaps you don't need great generals at all.

 

[mnf]

I did sort of use this when I got involved in an BC war that stretched out to 1400AD. But I wasn't really aiming for the Great General points, just wanted to get some promotions.

But you could realistically use it if your victim is isolated and not coastal. You can confidently run this factory until you get visitors from other continents (i.e. after they get Astronomy).

War Weariness is the only real problem. But then unless you want Representation, you could just run Hereditary Rule and keep producing happiness. You even get to rotate your units to get them all promoted.

Imagine you say hello to civs on another continent with a fleet fully loaded with all level 5 and above units.

 

[alex sword]

I've reproduced this exploit and now have step-by-step plan.

Settings:
1. Level - Monarch, maraphon.
2. Map - large, hemisphere, 3 continents, low sea, the rest is standard
3. Nation - Incas.
4. There were two AIs on my continent. It does not matter who. I think it will work for anybody.

***********************************
Plan was:
1. Quecha rush.
2. find their capitals and see.
3. Wait when one of AI establishes second city.
4. Capture his capital (5 quechas are enough if the city is not placed on hill) and pillage the second. Put two queachas there so they will kill new archers AI built and won't allow him improve tiles).
5. Do the same with second AI.
6. By now I'd three very good cities (my capital and their), huge maintenance and war with two weak AIs. And two military factories.
7. My first great general had been generated somewhere in 500BC even before I had catapults. One of my queachas reached 6 level but unfortunately died when barbarian invasion started.
8. WW was not issue at all.
9. after I discovered Alphabet, I get all their technologies (not too many though but animal husbandry and such came just in time, so I should not spend money) for temporary peace. The war was restarted as soon as possible.
9. Barbarians was a real issue. I built Great Wall and they did not entry my country, however they raized one of my military points factory. So, put axeman just to protect your factory.
10. After I generated two another great generals with catapults, I got tired. Don't see any reasons why I can't generate ten of them.


so, guys, this exploit is reproducable without any problems.


That's all.

 

[alex sword]

P.S. One miay ask - what to do with huge maintenace? The main problem is that captured AI capitals are good but they are too far.

So research priorities:
- Pottery - cottege spam should be started ASAP.
- Bronze - your captured cities must be whipped always when possible (smaller the city = smaller its maintenance)
- Sailing - your empire must be connected
- Writing - to generate great scientists
- Code of Laws - to establish religy but main goal, of course, is *courthouse*.
- Alphabet - so you can get various usefull techs from your victims

Also I get Masonry from huts, and with industrial trait of Incas, was able to build Pyramids as well as Great Wall. Great Wall means that in approaching barbarian thousands of years, you could minimize your military spending. It matters a lot from financial and production standpoints. Great wonder when you and barbarians are the only power on the continent.

 

[mnf]

Capitals are usually good, and they can usually pay for themselves, once they grow back to a reasonable population, can't they? Or just farm the whole place and run merchants. After you build markets, you may even be able to use that money to subsidize global research and up the slider. Even better if you get the Pyramid, your merchants may even be worth more science than the scientists.

Isn't one military factory good enough? Leave one AI some room for development, and then when the time is right, bring your trained troops to take over their already developed cities.

As for war weariness, BC wars can stretch on non-stop into the thirteenth century before you start feeling its effect, it seems.

 

[alex sword]

Capitals are usually good, and they can usually pay for themselves, once they grow back to a reasonable population, can't they?

Right. But don't forget - my first loot capital was captured somewhen in 3???bc. I even had no worker when captured it. So markets is of course good option but unfortunately I did not research them yet in 3???bc. Cottage spam + sailing + courts allowed to let the captured cities grow but not before - and markets which came thousands of years later allowed a further continuation of expansion.

Leave one AI some room for development, and then when the time is right...

Did not like this option at all. My cities would be too distributed (hard to defend), and cottage-spammed (good booty if someone decide to pillage them). So, I decide to kill them both. Disadvantage - I was not able to trade techs for a long time. These two poors provided me with what they know but they were not too much succesfull in research anymore. Advantage - I did not need spend tons of shields on military and tons of gold on their upgrade.

bring your trained troops to take over their already developed cities.

I did not allow AI to start the expansion, but barbarians started. There was a great deal of well-developed barbarians cities in 1000ag. So, it makes no difference. Advantages and disadvantages are above. When I play Incas, I always try to kill anobody I meet in 3???bc (while quechas brand is not outdated) and capture their cities and workers. Check how much a settler/worker costs and compare it with cost of quechas. This will demonstrate you that actually such ancient age wars are very profitable affairs from cost & benefits analysis. Now I just improved a general strategy by introducing "great generals" factory in the concept.

Will try it on the emperor, monarch now is too easy.

Isn't one military factory good enough?

right you are! If I repeated the same game, I would not wait for when my first victim would establish a second city. I would capture its capital immediately and will go after the second civ following my plan. Actually one factory is enough. AI starts building archers like crazy using whipping as soon as the 'factory' reaches 2 population and he invents bronze. However, you pillaged him and he never will be able to build axeman or swords. Archers, tens of them, hundreds of them. Before catapults, 2-3 quechas fortified near city in forest and attacking each unit which came out - is enough. After you've catapults, you need 3-4 catapults/trebs and 2-3 quechas/axemans to make the factory work (4-5 points per turn). Maybe one catapults more, so they might heal after attacking of fresh archers without pause.

If you've two factories - it will generate more military points (advantage) but you will start paying a lot of for your military support. A lot means 5-6 of golds. In modern wars, this would be just nothing but in that time, 5-6 of golds means 10% of my total research!

So, I agree - the second factory was unnecessary.

 

[r_rolo1]

One thought:

Cats now can't kill anymore.... So a good way of getting XP for cats is finding a barb city with archers and attack it with cats ( bring a medic ). The first cats would ( with some luck... ) bring archers to 0.8 str. Next cats would most likely retreat ( the odds favour the cat, but it can't lower archer str below 0.8, so it retreats ) and gain their 1 XP. Rinse and repeat.... CR3 cats with no barracks
Not so strong as the described above strat, but a good way to get around the lack of heavy promoted siege in BTS....

 

[50_dollar_bag]

Wow.
I always use my siege to pound the enemy into the lowest possible hitpoints, not only to give my attacking units the best chances but also to milk the reasonably easy XP you can get from your retreating siege weapons, (This works really well on a city packed with defenders)
But you've taken it to the next level and that's when it borders on an exploit .
But I'm surprised you haven't mentioned the Great Wall more as being a must, not form the no barbs aspect but from the +100% GG points you get if you set up the sacrificial city within your cultural boundaries. (but then again even if you have cutural dominance on a tile but it's the city centre it's not your boundaries, right )