Military Units, Corps and Armies

historix69

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Sep 30, 2008
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Is anybody worried about the realism of "Machine-Gun"- and "AT-Crew" - armies in Civ 6?

Modern military units are usually organized in combined arms formations :
X : Brigade
XX : Division
XXX : Corps
XXXX : Army
XXXXX : Army Group

A division usually has between 10-20.000 men (depending on national specifications.)
see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_organization#Commands.2C_formations_and_units

A standard Infantry Division usually consist of several Infantry Regiments which are supported by Machine Gun Battalions, Mortar, Field Artillery, AT and AA Batteries and Divisional Troops (HQ) and Train (Supply) etc.

Spoiler :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Infantry_Division_(Wehrmacht)
Germany : 1st Infantry Division (Wehrmacht) WW2

The 1st Infantry Division was a "Wave 1" division, meaning it existed prior to the outbreak of the war. It was equipped and organized along standard lines for a German infantry division. Its original form in 1934 consisted of two infantry regiments, an artillery regiment, a pioneer battalion, and a signals unit.

1st Infantry Regiment
22nd Infantry Regiment
43rd Infantry Regiment
1st Artillery Regiment
37th Artillery Regiment
31st Machine-gun Battalion
1st Anti-tank Battalion
1st Reconnaissance Battalion
1st Engineer Battalion
1st Signals Battalion
1st Medical Battalion



Spoiler :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Infantry_Division_(United_States)
"Big Red One"
WW1 :
1st_US_Infantry_Division_WWI.png


WW2 :
1st_US_Infantry_Division_WWII.png


 
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Interesting observation! Actually, no I'm not worried. But how would you change it? (And should this go in Ideas and Suggestions?)
 
I think it was Civ 3 that you could use Generals to form an Army where you could combine a number of different unit together to cover all strengths and weaknesses. I think you could do the same with naval units. not sure why they did not continue with this would make great Generals and Admirals more useful.
 
you could use Generals to form an Army where you could combine a number of different units [...] not sure why they did not continue with this would make great Generals and Admirals more useful.
Afair it was gorgeous fun, but way too strong in the hands of the human player. And the AI players didn't use this feature.
 
it would be nice to add another layer here. so for example, 3 identical units (say, anti-cav) become a hyper-specialised army, great at doing one thing very well... but also brittle. mixed armies (say, melee-ranged-cav) have a higher overall combat strength, reflecting a combined arms approach, but lose out on versatility. theyre just a big, slow, spongy, heavy unit.

blitzkreig vs combined arms, basically. do you specialise your armies or diversify?
 
I'd think such level of detail is more of the Hearts of Iron territory. What worries me more in Civ 6 concerning this bit of realism is that usually AT crews start running around centuries before first tanks can be spotted. That's hell of a foresight.
 
I liked the armies in Civ 3 but it was some work to earn the Great General units you needed to create an army. So it wasn't a feature for peaceful players.

Looking at the Promotions in Civ 4 and Civ 5, some actually have the similar effect like attaching a specialised battalion to a standard regiment, e.g. have an infantry regiment and add a MG-Battalion for a high bonus when defending against soft attackers (Infantry, Cavalry) or add an Engineer Battalion to allow River Crossing, etc.
 
The problem with military units in Both Civ V and Civ VI is that they are stuffed into artificial 'Categories' that, especially after the invention of gunpowder, have no basis in historical reality. Thus, every unit must be Either Melee, Ranged, Siege, etc. In fact, once they fitted the socket bayonet to a flintlock musket (between 1690 and 1710 CE) virtually Every infantry unit had both Melee and Ranged capability (albeit, very Short Range!). The only distinction between cannon used as Siege Weapons and on the battlefield was the size of the gun: 24 lbers and up for battering down walls, 12 lbers and less (so they were light enough to be moved) to dismember enemy troops.

So, along about the Industrial Era, Civ has to divide the units in artificial Ranged and Melee types, resulting in Infantry Support weapons found down to platoon level (rocket launchers, 'bazookas') or company level (machine-guns) as separate units. To get your mind around this, you have to assume the average Melee unit went from a 5000 man Roman Legion in the Classical Era to a 10 man squad in the Modern Era, and the overall size of your army dropped from 100,000 men + before Gunpowder to about 1000 men afterwards. WTH?!

IF specialized effects of Support Weapons (Antitank, Antiaircraft) have to be modeled, then, since the weapons themselves were integrated into larger 'melee' (and Ranged) units, they should be represented by Specialized Promotions/Upgrades. Technically, I suppose they would be Upgrades, since they would require Resources and Technology (Gold or possibly Production Points) to accomplish. BUT they would not change the basic factors and category of the Unit: I would opt for a slight Graphic Change and a change in the way the Combat (or Movement) Factors are applied.

Assuming the basic Infantry/Melee unit throughout the game represents a group numbering between 5,000 men (the late-Republic, early-Imperial Roman Legion) and 15,000 men (the average for a twentieth century Division - Soviet and German infantry/rifle divisions in WWII had official strengths of as low as 10,000 to 12,500, US Divisions averaged about 16,000, some German Panzer and Panzer-Grenadier Divisions had over 22,000. Modern 'divisions' on the battlefield have largely been replaced by Brigades of 5 - 8,000 men, so in the 21st century, we're almost back down to Roman Legion size!)
the possible 'Internal Upgrades' could be:
Light Antitank Weapons (Modern Era, right after the first tanks appear)
Antitank Missiles (Atomic Era) - would give an Anti-Mounted increase and a general Combat Factor increase - rocket launchers are generally handy as explosive firepower
Light Antiaircraft Guns (Modern Era)
Light SAMs (Atomic Era)

Note that an Antiaircraft Unit could still be a separate Support unit in the Modern Era, representing the heavier ('88' anyone?) antiaircraft guns that were frequently concentrated for city defense, but also had both an Anti-Air and Anti-Mounted (antitank - '88's anyone? - but also in WWII, the British 3.7", Soviet 85mm and 100mm, and US 90mm AA guns)

And, alone among the powers in the WWII (Modern-Atomic Era) the Soviet Army fielded Antitank Artillery Brigades, specialized antitank cannon units that concentrated 60 - 92 45mm, 57mm, 76mm and 100mm towed guns with both a ferocious Anti-Mounted/Anti-Tank effect but also a pretty fair Artillery Support (short-ranged) capability. I would make these Support Units, because without infantry or other support they were pretty 'easy meat' - with infantry support, one brigade could pretty nearly remove all the tanks from a Panzer Division, which is significant 'Anti-Mounted' capability.
I would be tempted to use this unit only as a Unique Unit peculiar to a Soviet-Era Alternate Leader for Russia, or we will see anomalous Antitank Artillery Brigades being fielded by anyone when faced with tanks...

Now, to solve the Melee-Ranged problem for Gunpowder Units, that's actually quite easy: use the Ranged Attack Before Melee mechanism used (historically inaccurately) for the Zulu Impi in Civ V. With this, ALL Firearm-equipped units would have a Ranged Attack before entering Melee. IF the ranged attack destroys the enemy, there is NO Melee, and the Firearm Unit takes no casualties ("shot them spearmen to pieces before they got close enough to stab me"). The Range Factor would always be less than the Melee Factor of the unit, so that Players and AIs would continue to use Melee units as Melee units. This also coincides neatly with the Basic Objective of the US Army's Infantry Arm for most of the 20th century: "To Close With and Destroy the Enemy". The fact that, increasingly, airpower, artillery, heavy infantry weapons, machine-guns et al have already destroyed him is irrelevant to the Melee Unit's mission.
Keep the range of this 'internal Ranged Factor' at 1 - this is certainly not entirely accurate, but it avoids messy complications in the game - you want longer-ranged support, do as the historical armies did from 1700 on and bring up the artillery - Frederick the Great's 'Dogs of War'.

So, all Melee Units after the Musketman - Infantry, Mechanized Infantry, and the UUs Redcoat, Garde Imperiale
Also the 'Firearm' equipped Mounted Units: Cavalry, Helicopter, Tank, Modern Armor and UUs Rough Rider, Cossack - all have a significant Ranged Factor that is part of their Combat Factor.

Provide the specialized effects of the artificial separate AT/AA units as Upgrades, add a (limited) Range Capability to the Melee/Mounted units that historically had it, and I think you will solve most of the current problems with the inane set of late-game units in Civ VI.

The other problems with the Inane Promotion Paths and Missing Units will be for another Thread...
 
I think it was Civ 3 that you could use Generals to form an Army where you could combine a number of different unit together to cover all strengths and weaknesses. I think you could do the same with naval units. not sure why they did not continue with this would make great Generals and Admirals more useful.

Actually in Civ3 / Civ4 it was the "stack of Doom" where "you could combine a number of different unit together to cover all strengths and weaknesses" including ranged weapons. The game used the concept of the "best" defender for stacks. So in Civ3 attacking a stack was usually a suicide mission for the first units due to defender bonus, additional ranged defensive fire (when artillery was in the stack) and "best defender". Creating armies allowed units with high health which could survive such a suicide attack. I can't remember if the armies also profited from "all strengths and weaknesses", since I usually created Cavalry/Tank armies with high movement points.
 
The reduction in number of troops is due to the speed of warfare increasing and the size of battlefields increasing. Decisions now need to be made on the platoon or even squad level. Waiting for orders on high can put a squad in a very precarious position.
 
The reduction in number of troops is due to the speed of warfare increasing and the size of battlefields increasing. Decisions now need to be made on the platoon or even squad level. Waiting for orders on high can put a squad in a very precarious position.

The 'reduction' is only at the Sharp End where people are actually in combat. Because of the increased lethality of weapons since gunpowder, then rifling, then high explosive long-range artillery, the density of troops Up Front has steadily declined. Dupuy's Numbers, Predictions & War has a considerable discussion of this, but basically, where a Roman 5000 man legion might cover a frontage of about 400 meters (density = 20,000 men per mile) today that same frontage would be covered by a reinforced company of maybe 200 men (density = 800 men per mile). BUT, because those 200 men have indirect fire support and heavy weapons support, air power, recon drones, and continuous supplies of ammunition and fuel being piped to them, the number of men in the entire army has increased enormously. At its height, the entire Roman Empire may have had 500,000 men under arms. At the beginning of WWI, the much smaller-area country of France put 3,000,000 armed men into the field - not counting her navy, which was substantial, and her colonial forces in Africa and the Far East.
In 1709, France and her enemies put over 220,000 armed men onto the battlefield at Malplaquet, and it was the largest battle in Europe for 100 years, until the Napoleonic/French Revolution Wars started - and the entire battlefield was less than 10 km wide!
In 1941, Germany and the Soviet Union put over 3,000,000 men into the start of the Battle of Moscow, but the 'battlefield' had a width over over 400 km, and quickly expanded to over 600 km!
The difference is, in 1941 the forces were only a fraction of the total available to either side, but in 1709 the Entire French Army, by far the largest in Europe, amounted to less than 1,000,000 men, and keeping that up nearly bankrupted the French economy.
To give a reasonable representation of historical realty, armies in Civ should get larger and much more expensive, but also spread over far more territory, and far more of the military should be 'off the battlefield' - long range artillery, air power, Information Era drones and satellites, missiles, etc.
 
Some ideas how a more realistic formation system could look like :

The formation system would range from Battalion/Battery (single unit) to Regiment/Brigade (limited stacks) to Division / Corps (Great General Area Formation Bonus).
Cities, Military districts (Encampments) and Forts would allow unlimited stacking of units and would allow to regroup current formations/stacks. (However only a single unit/formation would be allowed to defend a city/camp/fort at a time. Switching defenders would cost a turn. Loosing a city/camp/fort would give the victorious side control on the captured military assets.)


1. Battalions and Batteries would be the basic unit size from ancient times on until renaissance.
Units gain experience from combat. If a unit gains a new experience level, it gets an efficiency bonus to Combat Strength, Movement Speed, etc., e.g.
Level 0 : 100%
Level 1 : 110%
Level 2 : 120%
Level 3 : 130%
Level 4 : 140%
Level 5 : 150%


2. Regiments :
Once the player discovers "regiments" (or gets a Great General) he can form a regiment out of 2-4 battalions of one unit type and (with Military Academy) he can produce units in battalion or regiment strength (e.g. 1 regiment = 3 battalions as default).
To form a regiment, a General should either be not necessary or the player should get the possibility to earn/build/recruit more Generals (besides the Great Generals from Great Persons).
The regiment has higher combat value, more hitpoints and it can fight longer at 100% combat strength due to its reserves, but it is also more expensive than a single battalion, e.g. a regiment of 4 battalions will cost upkeep for 4 battalions.
A General/Great General can be attached to a regiment to provide additional combat bonus.
Combat grants experience points to the General and all battalions. A more experienced battalion will give additional experience bonus to less experienced battalions in the same regiment.


3. Generals and Great Generals
Generals start with a level "0 stars" (= Colonel) and can gain level through combat.
Level 0 : +5% Bonus, can lead Regiment (III)
Level 1 : +10% Bonus, allows Brigade (X)
Level 2 : +15% Bonus, allows Division-HQ (XX)
Level 3 : +20% Bonus, allows Corps-HQ (XXX)
Level 4 : +25% Bonus (XXXX)
Level 5 : +30% Bonus (XXXXX)
Great Generals (= Great Persons) from advanced eras can start with a higher level ...
Maybe the player can recruit "0 star" Generals from a Military Academy or earn them by combat experience.
Maybe the player can use an experienced General to found a Military Academy in one of his cities / camps when the Tech for Military Academy is not yet researched and build more Generals there.


4. Brigades
A Level 1 General (= Brigade General / 1-star-general) (or higher) may form a (Combat-)Brigade, which may include up to 1-2 regiments (2-6 battallions) of base unit type and 0-4 supporting units.
The Brigade is a combat stack unit. Combat grants experience points to the General and all battalions.
Base unit types might be infantry (melee), cavalry/tanks, artillery.


5. Division
A Level 2 General (= Division General / 2-star-general) (or higher) may form a Division (HQ), which is a special stack unit which includes a Division HQ modul, some combat battalions (for self defense), supporting units, Supply, Maintenance, Medic, etc.
1-5 Battalions / Regiments / Brigades can be assigned to a Division.
The Division HQ works like a Great General in Civ 5 / Civ 6 and provides boni to its assigned Regiments/Brigades in a 2-tiles-radius.
The Division Bonus is based on the Level of its General as well as the type of supporting units, e.g. Medic = increased Healing Rate, Supply = more ammo = more Artillery Damage, Maintenance = increased Repair rate for vehicles, - Artillery = Bonus Damage for Attack / Defense in 1-tile-radius, AA = Bonus Air Defense in 1-tile-radius, etc.
Regiments / Brigades belonging to the same Division get an improved flanking bonus when fighting next to each other.
The General receives a fraction of the Combat experience of its assigned Regiments/Brigades in 2-tiles-radius.

Note : If you have only one Great General and he has Level 2, you can still form a Division with up to 5 regiments and give them all the Division bonus.


6. Corps
A Level 3 General (= Corps General / 3-star-general) (or higher) may form a Corps HQ, which is a special stack unit which includes an (expensive) Corps HQ modul and some combat battalions (for self defense) and supporting units.
1-5 Divisions can be assigned to a Corps.
The Corps HQ works like a Great General in Civ 5 / Civ 6 and provides an additional bonus to its assigned Division HQs in a 6-tiles-radius.
The Corps Bonus is based on the Level of its General.
All Regiments / Brigades of assigned Divisions get an improved flanking bonus like if they belonged to the same division.
The General receives a (small) fraction of the Combat experience of the Regiments/Brigades assigned to the Corps in 5-tiles-radius.

So units in a Corps may receive stacking combat boni from Brigade, Division and Corps Generals and support boni from Brigade and Division Level.


7. Supporting Units

Supporting units (battalions) might be
- embedded Recon (Sight increased to 2 tiles)
- Siege units / Combat Engineer = Bonus damage against fortified units
- Artillery = Bonus Damage for Attack / Defense
- Machine Gun = Bonus Defense against soft targets (Infantry, Cavalry)
- AT = Bonus Defense against hard targets like Tanks (or ships in coastal water)
- AA = Bonus Air Defense (For German 88 also Bonus Defense against hard targets like Tanks)
- Medic = increased Healing Rate for Melee/Cavalry
- Supply = more ammo = more (Artillery) Damage
- Maintenance = increased Repair rate for vehicles, artillery.
- Engineer = reduced movement penalties from terrain, rivers
- Mot. / Mech. Transport (raises Movement Points per turn to 4 depending on terrain.)
- Amphibian Equipment (for Marines, Amphibian Assault, Attack across River)
- Mountain/Desert/Arctic/Jungle Equipment = reduced penalties from terrain
...

Support units cost upkeep (Gold per turn) like normal combat units.

8. Stack Movement
As common a stack (regiment/brigade/HQ) moves at the movement speed of its slowest member.
Special support units like a Mot. Transport Battalion may increase movement speed of the whole stack.


9. Stack combat
The units in a stack are distinguished between 1st line (front, combat), 2nd line (ranged, combat support) and rear (supply, etc.) units. In special situations, a unit may be moved manually from 1st to 2nd line by the player, e.g. a tank unit when attacking a strong AT defensive position or an exhausted unit to recover.

Depending on attack / defense situation, some 2nd line units may defend in 1st line (e.g. AA / AT against tanks)

All units (battalions) have hitpoints. The hitpoints of the stack for direct combat are calculated by adding up hitpoints of 1st line units.
Special support units allow faster regeneration of stacks and heal some hitpoints even when attacking during a turn.

Combat strength is averaged over the 1st line units and receives bonus from 2nd line units, e.g. ranged units firing rounds at the enemy front lines in combat support.
The frontline of a stack for direct combat might be 3 battalions. That means that a stack can field a maximum of an equivalent of 3 battalions. If the stack has more than 3 combat battalions, all combat battalions above 3 count as "combat reserve". Losses in combat rounds are directly replaced from reserve, so allowing a stack to maintain 100% combat efficiency as long as it has reserves. Losses are spread between 1st line units with experienced units having a higher chance to avoid casualties than unexperienced units until the unexperienced units are down to a minimum. Stacks with reserves should last much longer in combat than single battalions.

As usual, combat per turn is limited to a certain number of rounds dealing/receiving damage.
An attacking stack will automatically abort its attack when casualties reach a certain threshold, e.g. when front line hitpoints are down to 25% of total front line hitpoints.

A stack with ranged units (artillery) may bombard enemy units (ranged attack) but then cannot do a melee attack in the same turn (since Movement Points are exhausted).
If a stack is bombarded, the damage is spread between all units. The boni from support units may be lowered when the support unit is damaged. (Artillery with points left may automatically return the fire (artillery duell).)

If the 1st line units of a defending stack are all destroyed in combat, 2nd line units with melee capability will try to defend. If there are no such units or these units are destroyed, too, the stack is overrun by the attacker. The Great General, support units like artillery, AT Guns, etc. as well as train units (Supply, Maintenance) can be captured by the attacker.
Captured Great Generals can be kept hostage and can be traded since they are rare units. (Maybe Mercenary Great Generals may switch sides for Gold?) Captured support units may be directly used by brigades nearby (Cost : 1 turn for regrouping) or may be moved manually to a nearby fort/camp/city for further usage similar to captured workers.
Great Generals and support units may be captured back if the defender has more units around and successfully counterattacks (similar to captured workers).
 
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