Minor flaws

[ScubaV]

I recently noticed a couple minor things in my game that may need to be cleaned up/adjusted, but they're not high priority issues.

Flint - A number of more modern units, like musketmen and riflemen can be built faster with flint, but the gatherer becomes obsolete with iron working and I don't see any other way to acquire it in the pedia. Even the other AI have progressed past it even though I'm way ahead technologically.

National Mint - Gives some gold, but increases maintenance cost and adds crime. Even though I have all the bonus resources, the maintenance means it's a net gold loss. There's basically no reason to build it as it only gives negatives.

 

[Thunderbrd]

National Mint - Gives some gold, but increases maintenance cost and adds crime. Even though I have all the bonus resources, the maintenance means it's a net gold loss. There's basically no reason to build it as it only gives negatives.

Maintenance is negative gold. So I'm wondering... is it giving COMMERCE and costing gold? That would mean you're able to convert the lost gold to research, culture, or espionage at a rate that's not as good as 1:1 but it's probably better than what a library or university is doing as far as conversion rate from gold to research is.

Flint... I agree something needs to still make that possible. Can we setup a flint mine maybe or flint quarry building to replace the gatherer?

 

[raxo2222]

Maintenance is negative gold. So I'm wondering... is it giving COMMERCE and costing gold? That would mean you're able to convert the lost gold to research, culture, or espionage at a rate that's not as good as 1:1 but it's probably better than what a library or university is doing as far as conversion rate from gold to research is.

Flint... I agree something needs to still make that possible. Can we setup a flint mine maybe or flint quarry building to replace the gatherer?

National Mint gives +2 flat gold and +1% to gold from Copper/Electrum/Gold/Platinum/Silver wares.

I guess maintenance cost is already very high in that city.

 

[Thunderbrd]

National Mint gives +2 flat gold and +1% to gold from Copper/Electrum/Gold/Platinum/Silver wares.

Where's the negative gold coming from? Are we using the old maintenance tag for that?

 

[raxo2222]

Where's the negative gold coming from? Are we using the old maintenance tag for that?

I think it is same tag as buildings that reduce maintenance, just has positive value.

Spoiler :

 

[tmv]

The Genealogy center (Renaissance) gives a bonus with tablets, but those are unavailable past Paper (Medieval).

 

[raxo2222]

I made sure, that most of manufactured resources are available continuously if you keep up with buildings.
I made list of resources that had too huge gaps to cover or were seemingly intentional to lose them.

Classical:
Flint producer is obsoleted at Iron Working - after that only natural wonder provides it
Stone Tools producer is obsoleted at Iron Working

Medieval:
Tablets producer is obsoleted at Paper

Renaissance:
Poison producer is obsoleted at Chemistry

Industrial:
Natron (map resource) is obsoleted at Refining

Atomic:
Charcoal producer is obsoleted at Advanced Metallurgy
Phonographs producer is obsoleted at Mass Media
Saddles producer is obsoleted at Vertical Flight
Scrolls producer is obsoleted at Personal Computers
Punch Cards producer is replaced by Diskette producer at Personal Computers (obsoletes at Flash Memory)
Typewriters producer is obsoleted at Computer Networks

Information:
Diskettes producer is obsoleted at Wearable Computers
Sails producer is obsoleted at Marine Architecture

Nanotech:
Kerosene producer is obsoleted at Fusion

Transhuman:
Fossils producer is obsoleted at Novo Palaeontology

 

[Yudishtira]

Headstones are tablets, so they are still being made and used, including by genealogists. Flint is probably still used in lighters.

What is the point of obsoleting bonuses (or their source buildings, for that matter, when they are without replacements)? Who goes around introducing these bugs, and why?

And now that they have been pointed out, why is it taking so long to fix them?

 

[raxo2222]

Headstones are tablets, so they are still being made and used, including by genealogists. Flint is probably still used in lighters.

What is the point of obsoleting bonuses (or their source buildings, for that matter, when they are without replacements)? Who goes around introducing these bugs, and why?

And now that they have been pointed out, why is it taking so long to fix them?

Bugs lol @Dancing Hoskuld wanted some resources to be obsoleted.
I guess he couldn't see, that some units/buildings require/get boost from some resources long after their producers are gone.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Headstones are tablets, so they are still being made and used, including by genealogists. Flint is probably still used in lighters.

What is the point of obsoleting bonuses (or their source buildings, for that matter, when they are without replacements)? Who goes around introducing these bugs, and why?

And now that they have been pointed out, why is it taking so long to fix them?

Bugs lol @Dancing Hoskuld wanted some resources to be obsoleted.
I guess he couldn't see, that some units/buildings require/get boost from some resources long after their producers are gone.

Nor can you have things that produce less , or whatever which would be more accurate because people call that a bug. There are very good reasons for having things go obsolete. Look at the crime buildings for instance.

With Flint as an example. It was going obsolete in the Stone Age before I added in the building that now makes it. Mind you at the time I did it we did not go as far as the Renaissance so any bugs introduced with the use of it came about by the people who added in the use and not changing the resource to match. Flint should have a big impact in the Stone to Iron age but it should get less and less as time goes on. Bronze is another example where it keeps getting better and better returns when it should become much less valuable with Iron and Glass which replace it for most uses.

 

[raxo2222]

Nor can you have things that produce less , or whatever which would be more accurate because people call that a bug. There are very good reasons for having things go obsolete. Look at the crime buildings for instance.

With Flint as an example. It was going obsolete in the Stone Age before I added in the building that now makes it. Mind you at the time I did it we did not go as far as the Renaissance so any bugs introduced with the use of it came about by the people who added in the use and not changing the resource to match. Flint should have a big impact in the Stone to Iron age but it should get less and less as time goes on. Bronze is another example where it keeps getting better and better returns when it should become much less valuable with Iron and Glass which replace it for most uses.

In case of Flint it is used to boost production rate of some early gunpowder units - you can see that in pedia.

So at end result it looks like no one watched what others do.

Also by that logic no regular building unlocked before Information era would survive Galactic era.
There are some Prehistoric - Atomic buildings, that never obsolete.

 

[Yudishtira]

Nor can you have things that produce less , or whatever which would be more accurate because people call that a bug. There are very good reasons for having things go obsolete. Look at the crime buildings for instance.

With Flint as an example. It was going obsolete in the Stone Age before I added in the building that now makes it. Mind you at the time I did it we did not go as far as the Renaissance so any bugs introduced with the use of it came about by the people who added in the use and not changing the resource to match. Flint should have a big impact in the Stone to Iron age but it should get less and less as time goes on. Bronze is another example where it keeps getting better and better returns when it should become much less valuable with Iron and Glass which replace it for most uses.

You can reduce yields based on tech. Isn't that what the Stone Tool Maker does when metalworking comes along? Who calls it a bug?

I wouldn't mind if all the yields reduce to zero, but the resource is still needed and therefore so is the source building.

 

[KaTiON_PT]

The Stone Tool Maker slowly loses its bonuses the closer it gets to Metalworking so it "softens the blow" to the economy once this building goes obsolete. Never found that a bug as it makes sense to me.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

You can reduce yields based on tech. Isn't that what the Stone Tool Maker does when metalworking comes along? Who calls it a bug?

I wouldn't mind if all the yields reduce to zero, but the resource is still needed and therefore so is the source building.

Players call it a bug. For example they don't like replacement buildings that get less than the old building. Such thinking extends to everything.

Isn't most of the flint used now made in a factory as by product of other processes? I know something similar happened in ancient Egypt when grass drills (for stone work) were replaced with copper ones. The waste (dust and grit with copper in it) from drilling was used for making jewellery rather than getting the minerals from mines. It just happened that it was basically "ready mixed" in the form necessary for the furnaces to make the "fake" gems.

 

[Yudishtira]

Players call it a bug. For example they don't like replacement buildings that get less than the old building. Such thinking extends to everything.

Since I regard obsoletions as generally bogus, if a replacement building gives less of a yield, it simply will never be worth building. Which yes, I would regard as a bug. The solution in that case would be to reduce the yields on the original building gradually by techs, until the new building is worthwhile.

Back to the current case: can these bugs now be fixed and the bonuses (Flint, Tablets) and their source buildings be unobsoleted?

 

[raxo2222]

Back to the current case: can these bugs now be fixed and the bonuses (Flint, Tablets) and their source buildings be unobsoleted?

I can remove obsoletes from those resource manufacturers (resources except Natron don't obsolete) - there is lot more buildings, that could be obsoleted sooner or later anyway.
Building new city or rebuilding buildings is messy from realism standpoint past Industrial era anyway.

Pepper changed Flint Quarry to obsolete at Iron Working - module overwrite.
Normally it didn't obsolete at all.

Stone Tools don't give boost to any other buildings/units except one building.
Stone Tools Workshop obsoletes at Iron Working in Classical, while that one building having any use of stone tools obsoletes at Humanism in Renaissance.
So there is -3% production change at Iron Working
It has its requirement obsoleteing at Iron Working, so presence of stone tools can be handwaved with archaeology
Similarly Scrolls and Tablets can be treated like that too - genealogy centre gets culture boosts from them.

Chemistry Lab can produce Poison - it is chemical lol.
There is Enclosure - Amphibian Pond that ensures continuity at Chemistry.

Pepper made Charcoal Burner obsolete at Advanced Metallurgy.
He forgot it is used for recreation - grilling and camping.

Phonographs, typewriters, diskettes and punchcards are probably used as novelty thing and for museums.
Or for institutions that don't want to upgrade (why upgrade if it works).
Saddles and sails are used recreationally.

Kerosene and fossils had obsoletions in future. Those got removed too.

Skis aren't produced but some buildings are affected by it. I guess I can add factory for it somewhere.

 

[raxo2222]

@Yudishtira now you can update.

Also who put Skis and never added factory for it? Most likely it was like this since forever.
Now you can build that factory, but it needs icon (now reuses Factory icon).

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Stone Tools, Bone Tools, Natural (Wood/Grass) Tools, Copper Tools, Bronze Tools, etc., etc. was a concept that was being discussed. It was multi faceted. Everything from equipment promotion for workers to requirements for buildings, including reductions in costs for buildings and units. It never got beyond the starting phase unfortunately. I think there was not enough time tom add in all the buildings and building upgrades needed as well as separate out effects from existing buildings and units; that is some buildings assumed the best tools were already available and had that built in to their yield rather than giving better yields with the various tools.

For example: If you have access to antlers and pronged or branched horns then you get access to picks (pick axes) earlier which makes building improvements faster and mines more productive. Otherwise you need to get bronze working to get the same benefit.