Minor (I hope) Module Request

Cyrusfan

King
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Jul 18, 2009
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I suggested this to Valkrionn a week or two ago and he thought it was moderately interesting/doable. However, he has a lot on his plate before the next update, and rather than beg for one minor convenience, I think it might be easier to toss it to the masses and see if anyone thinks its worth doing. I'm just too impatient for my own good, but it'd also be easier on him to include it officially, if it's already lying around.

I find I am a glutton for the mana from other people's palaces. It doesn't always do a lot of good, but it's enough to want to vassalize them at their last city. That is a pain for any number of reasons. The idea here is that you would sack the capitol (only when it is also their only city) and carry off whatever artifacts produce the resources provided by their palace. Specifically because the Bezeri cannot capture another civ's cities, Valkrionn felt it was best, if this is done, that the capability be mobile. He suggested a supplies unit.

What I would like is a piece of equipment, like Sylviens Perfect Lyre, that is given to the unit that takes a civ's final city (since the city itself may be destroyed) and when dropped in another city produces the palace resources of the lost civ. The blunt force way to do this is to make 33 or so pieces of equipment named for each civ that give the appropriate resources. This could be interesting, especially if the items also have some property of the civ they represent so they have some use in hand rather than in a city (for example the 'Hippus Heart' in a city gives horses and a couple of mana, or when equipped gives a single unit the horselord promotion). However in this method, no items would have to be made each time a new civ was made available.

I don't know if it's possible, but I wonder if we could tie each piece of equipment to the player position that had been eliminated. If players just hold the numerical designation they have on the custom game screen throughout the game, this should be possible. Basically you'd have a generic piece of equipment (the treasure chest graphic would do) that refers to a particular player position and then incorporates that player's name (or his tribe's name) in its name, and checks the file for his palace to find the resources it should produce. I don't know if this would have to be done every turn or just when the item is created. [Valkrionn mentioned at some point he might include Revolutions and it has a habit of spitting back leaders that you've beaten repeatedly-we wouldn't want duplicate 'Hearts' being formed every time a revolutionary leader stepped forward unless he's actually new to a particular game.] I think in this method, no updates would be needed for new civs. I think one of the palaces only gives two resources and does something else funny, but I don't know which one off the top of my head. That may cause a wrinkle.

There are some issues to be finessed. If you get the extra resources from this method before you have the option to vassalize, you've gotten a significant, possibly unbalancing advantage that you couldn't have otherwise (even if its fair by virtue of being available to everyone). But I don't want folks feeling they have to wait to pick up the tech that allows vassals (I want to say Code of Laws, but I think its a couple of steps later, whatever allows Hall of Kings) before taking a civ's last city. Instead, I'd like the resources to be unavailable until the appropriate tech would uncover them (or allow their node to be formed). If this creates too many moving parts, I would hold back their resources until Sorcery (which I think is at roughly the same depth as the tech for vassals).

The Mechanos don't use typed mana, instead they convert it all to refined mana. I think it makes sense to tie their use of the mana to the tech that allows them to build their node replacement (refinery?), if the array of prerequisite techs is used. Otherwise, they should wait until Sorcery like everyone else.

If barbarians wipe someone out, the palace heart is likely to be lost, though I like the mental image of some orc making a necklace out of it. This would be more interesting if the items did something as equipment. There's also the question of what happens to these things when the city they're in is razed by other players. Again, I don't know off the top of my head, but I assume equipment drops on the tile its unit/city was in (like Orthus' axe).
 
I'd suggest just to utilize the current Dragon Hoard mechanic but check if the city is the last. There're a few situations you want to consider (like Require Total Kills option).
 
Going about it in a different way, how about some improvements built over city ruins.

Two (available at divination and necromancy, maybe with some divine techs requirements as well) would allow you to turn the city ruin into a mana node. If you can track the civ whose city was razed, you could limit the mana node to converted to one of the civ's mana types. The necromancy one would also add hammers or maybe aid in summoning undead in some fashion, while the divination one would add gold.

The third would be more of an archeological dig requiring, say, Engineering, and producing an "artifacts" happiness resource, gold and maybe a hammer.

In all cases, being able to track the size of the city that was razed could be put into the equation, with bigger cities providing more bonuses/maybe a faster or more certain conversion to mana.

Finally, in a conquered city, you might add buildings that effectively add the Tolerant trait for that city only, at some happiness/culture cost. If the city is eligible for a palace production, you might allow conquered civ-palace production, for huge happiness/culture cost.
 
Kraydak, my first idea was some kind of monument in that last city, swapped out for the palace as its captured. Which I felt continued the situation where you'd still have the burden of protecting the city, just not protecting the thoroughly neutered AI vassal. Unfortunately the improvements you suggest have the same geographic issue as my monuments ran into. Valkrionn's big thing at the moment is the Bezeri, who aren't generally going to use land territory and could not make use of the improvements you describe.

Deon, I think there'll have to be a check if a civ with no cities somehow gets a city again and therefore a free palace. The easiest thing would just be to negate the equipment/structure and give its temporary owner a message that it disappeared in the night (and, by the way, such and such a civ has re-established their throne (but only if it is the exact same player). That covers Require Complete Kills and any Revolutions eventuality.
 
Kraydak, my first idea was some kind of monument in that last city, swapped out for the palace as its captured. Which I felt continued the situation where you'd still have the burden of protecting the city, just not protecting the thoroughly neutered AI vassal. Unfortunately the improvements you suggest have the same geographic issue as my monuments ran into. Valkrionn's big thing at the moment is the Bezeri, who aren't generally going to use land territory and could not make use of the improvements you describe.

Deon, I think there'll have to be a check if a civ with no cities somehow gets a city again and therefore a free palace. The easiest thing would just be to negate the equipment/structure and give its temporary owner a message that it disappeared in the night (and, by the way, such and such a civ has re-established their throne (but only if it is the exact same player). That covers Require Complete Kills and any Revolutions eventuality.

Actually, not entirely true... They've been pushed back a bit for a different project. Not a civ, but something that could lead to a massive redesign... Blame Opera for inspiring it. :lol: Honestly, right now we have myself, Opera, and Grey Fox planning this, Xienwolf giving advice, and we're all excited. :mischief:
 
Is this a new different project, or one that we've possibly heard dribs and drabs about already?

And would the potential "massive redesign" be before or after the next patch (which was to include the Bezeri the last I heard). Not to complain *too much* I know you guys will announce what you're up to when it's ready for presentation. Just need to log the concern.
 
Valkrionn, while you're here, did you have any further thoughts on what it would take to do my module request here? Is this a weekend project or more than that? And might you throw it together if no one else has picked it up by the time you're ready to release 1.2?
 
It really depends on how you do it. To do it right, you'd likely want to tie it to a game option... Which means a minimal bit of DLL work.

Not sure if I'll ever get around to adding this, but if I do each civ's building would provide only ONE resource type, which is most associated with that civ. Keeps Vassalage as a better option if you can get it, as you get all the manas instead of just the one.
 
It's worth the delay IMO. Especially seeing as you know what I'm talking about. :lol:

If I might be so bold, Valk. What is this hypothetical "thing" involving a "massive redesgin?" Is it the second alignment axis? Or is it something else?
 
Is there any way we could get a game option to disable defensive vassals but allow capitulation? I'd still prefer the palace-heart-as-equipment option (though it doesn't seem worth the effort for one mana), but if I could at least avoid defensive vassals, I'd be willing to call it a day.
 
Probably not no. I haven't looked at the code, have no idea how involved it would be to do, and don't have the time to do it... Currently working on finishing up 1.12, then quite a bit of DLL work for Vermicious's project, then the New Feature, then the Bezeri.... Lots to do. ;)

Also, why does it not seem worth the effort? To do anymore than just the one removes any reason to have them capitulate, so basically throws the balance out the window. :lol:

I may end up doing something similar, tied into the New Feature.... Would be fitting.
 
I know, you add another counter, like AC.

Spoiler :
It's called HC, Hamster Counter, and it will spam hamster events and hamster units all over the place. At 30 HC you will get a hamster blight where all you warriors start to eat food from your cities and turn into hamsters, and all your rangers grab a hamster and start to act as morons, calling them Big Space Hamsters.
At 100 HC all the Erebus turns to Hamster and eats compact.

Sorry for spoilering it to others.
 
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