Jabie
Wanted in Monte Carlo...
What, if anything, is known about the minor leaders that appear in the scenarios?
Minor Leaders
- Thread starter Jabie
- Start date
Opera
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2008
- Messages
- 4,643
I would like to know the answers too, even a tiny bit like one sentence. For example, Volanna: how come she's a great adventurer (and thus from the Grigori if I understood it right)? Did she left the Svartalfar or something? As I said in some thread, I have my own idea but, well, any "canon" indication would be appreciated. Or maybe saying nothing is intended? 
Jabie
Wanted in Monte Carlo...
That would be the same Lazy Kael who spent over two years of his free time working on of the best mods on the Internet....
Luckmann
Esusian Epicure
Yes. 10chars
Tyrs
King
Eh, more likely Non-Lazy Kael would be a CEO of some company instead of designing free mods for games. So thank the One for laziness!
Lade
Prince
I thought that was Mulcarn's job? Isn't ice the sphere of laziness?
EDIT: Now that I think about it, doesn't that mean laziness INCREASES productivity? After all, the Illian's special "inscribe monument" event lets them get hammers for dedicating the monument to Mulcarn... Maybe being lazy increases effeciency?
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
One of the first things we were taught in AP computer science is that a good programmer/software engineer must be lazy. Only lazy people will look hard enough for ways to avoid doing too much coding, thus finding shortcuts and making the codes they do make more efficient. A similar sentiment was expressed in my freshman year CS class here at Georgia Tech.
Mulcarn isn't exactly laziness, he is a desire for things not to change or for them to return to "the good old days" (an idealized view of the past, not all that similar to how things ever really were). Laziness could also be expressed in Danalin's sphere, which is laregly about just going with the flow. It could also be Arawn's, which is mostly about resignation to just let things go on without you while you do nothing but rest. Last but not least, it is also tied to Tali's essence of going out and doing a lot of crazy and fun things while avoiding all actual responsibilities and productive work. Tali is the god of fun and of goofing off, so he is really important to good game design.
Mulcarn isn't exactly laziness, he is a desire for things not to change or for them to return to "the good old days" (an idealized view of the past, not all that similar to how things ever really were). Laziness could also be expressed in Danalin's sphere, which is laregly about just going with the flow. It could also be Arawn's, which is mostly about resignation to just let things go on without you while you do nothing but rest. Last but not least, it is also tied to Tali's essence of going out and doing a lot of crazy and fun things while avoiding all actual responsibilities and productive work. Tali is the god of fun and of goofing off, so he is really important to good game design.
Jabie
Wanted in Monte Carlo...
a.k.a. Efficiency is highly developped laziness.
Back on topic, is anything much known about the Minor Leaders, or are they a blank slate.
cIV_khanh93
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2008
- Messages
- 528
laziness=
efficiency=
non-laziness=
.... Agreed
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
Back to the original topic, how much is known of the minor leaders? Specifically, the minor Infernal leaders... Trying to make a leader-specific hero for each to go with the Minor Leaders aspect of my mod, but I'm having issues picking a unit to base each off of... This is what I have so far. It includes some non-cannon Mercurian leaders as well, but gotta have some balance. 
Infernals:
Infernals:
- Judecca - Death Knight. Defaulted to this, couldn't think of anything.
- Duke Sallos - Balor. He just looks like one to me.
- Ouzza - Ira. Again, looks like one.
- Meresin - Lich/Wraith. First thought was a wraith, but a lich is more powerful. Maybe just use the wraith art, but base it off a lich?
- Statius - Eater of Dreams? He looks like a caster, and this is the most demonic aside from a lich. All that's left, really.
- Lethe - Succubus. Only female demon, basically.
- Dauvum - Seraph. Seems to match the leader head pretty well.
- Bertus - Angel of Death.
- Ferthegis - Herald/Ophanim/Valkyrie. Haven't decided.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
I don't think any of the demon lords are undead creatures like Death Knights or Liches. I'm pretty sure they are all Demons, and from what I gather most if not all of them (excluding Hyborem, of course) were once mortals.
Judecca definitely doesn't look like a death knight. He is the most refined and intelligent looking of the demon lords. He is clearly a thinker, not a fighter, as shown both my his appearance and his Philosophical trait. His unit should not be physically strong, but should be a powerful caster, probably an Archmage or maybe High Priest(Profane) type hero. (Although I don't really have anything to base this on, I like to think that the Demon Lord Judecca was one of Kylorin students in his mortal life, probably Gastrius the undisputed master of Metamagic.)
Duke Sallos clearly is a demon of Lust in the service of Aeron, whereas Balors all true angels of Bhall who fell into Agares Vault with their mistress and now manifest his precept at least as much as hers. He looks nothing like a Balor, as he appears as a handsome winged human, not a hooved monstrosity. Sallos's demon type would certainly be an Incubus, a Male Succubus. I don't really think we have a good model for that. Eventually something based on the Angel of Death could be nice, but for now I'd recommend him looking like Mardero.
Ouzza actually looks a lot more like a Balor imho, but an Ira could work as he clearly seems associated with Camulos. Since he was forged in Camulos's hell, he certainly is not a true demon like a Balor would be.
There is nothing Wrath- or Lich-like about Meresin, he is a perfectly formed muscular titan with an enormous sword and shield. His description as glorious and his closing text about entropy make me think he is the closest tied to Agares. He needs to look imposing, muscular, and shirtless, not like a darkly robes decrepit skeleton. I'm thinking a wingless Angel of Death might be a good placeholder.
I get the impression that Statius is the most associated with Ceridwen, as he speaks of power a as a chain that bind. The connection to Ceridwen may make using the Sheaim unit for him more appropriate. Also he does look fairly arcane, and it looks like his profile pic contains many other souls who are terrified of him, some of whom look like they may be trying to escape being consumed. I think that an Eater of Dreams could work well for him, at least temporarily. (Looking past the arcane imagery, it looks to be like he may be wearing finely crafted battle armor. That, plus his defeat quote, plus the title "the redeemer" make me think he may very well have been a holy warrior once upon a time. I like to think that he was a righteous paladin who endured hardship nobly but that once he successfully vanquished a powerful demon or sorcerer and no longer had a clear enemy he lost his discipline. He had amassed a powerful army for himself in his quest to defeat this evil was not willing to give up this power or the greater power to be gleaned from his enemies arcane tomes once the threat was gone.)
Lethe is a female and the Succubus is the only female demon in the game, but she really doesn't strike me as a Succubus. For one thing, she clearly has no wings. She looks finely and fairly modestly dressed, and her tactics are far more subtle than exploiting man's lusts. She really looks more like a refined Satyr Druidess than a demon, perhaps indicating that that is what she was back in life (if so, it may help explain how she got the druidess Talia to speak to her instead of only to the normal druidic nature spirits and how she convinced her to kill herself). She seems most closely connected to Esus (obviously despair is a big part of suicide so she would be tied to Agares too, but she does trick people into despairing and Esus's vault is also designed to trick people into giving up on what they once believed in in order to make them accept the machine of hell), so maintaining the illusion of her former appearance rather than gaining a new form that manifests her deepest sins seems fitting. I would probably use something like a Svartalfar Mage.
Since the Infernal Worldspell can only be cast by the Hyborem unit, you should probably come up with different world spells for the other Infernal Leaders, perhaps based on their Lord of the Balor's temptation events.
Judecca definitely doesn't look like a death knight. He is the most refined and intelligent looking of the demon lords. He is clearly a thinker, not a fighter, as shown both my his appearance and his Philosophical trait. His unit should not be physically strong, but should be a powerful caster, probably an Archmage or maybe High Priest(Profane) type hero. (Although I don't really have anything to base this on, I like to think that the Demon Lord Judecca was one of Kylorin students in his mortal life, probably Gastrius the undisputed master of Metamagic.)
Duke Sallos clearly is a demon of Lust in the service of Aeron, whereas Balors all true angels of Bhall who fell into Agares Vault with their mistress and now manifest his precept at least as much as hers. He looks nothing like a Balor, as he appears as a handsome winged human, not a hooved monstrosity. Sallos's demon type would certainly be an Incubus, a Male Succubus. I don't really think we have a good model for that. Eventually something based on the Angel of Death could be nice, but for now I'd recommend him looking like Mardero.
Ouzza actually looks a lot more like a Balor imho, but an Ira could work as he clearly seems associated with Camulos. Since he was forged in Camulos's hell, he certainly is not a true demon like a Balor would be.
There is nothing Wrath- or Lich-like about Meresin, he is a perfectly formed muscular titan with an enormous sword and shield. His description as glorious and his closing text about entropy make me think he is the closest tied to Agares. He needs to look imposing, muscular, and shirtless, not like a darkly robes decrepit skeleton. I'm thinking a wingless Angel of Death might be a good placeholder.
I get the impression that Statius is the most associated with Ceridwen, as he speaks of power a as a chain that bind. The connection to Ceridwen may make using the Sheaim unit for him more appropriate. Also he does look fairly arcane, and it looks like his profile pic contains many other souls who are terrified of him, some of whom look like they may be trying to escape being consumed. I think that an Eater of Dreams could work well for him, at least temporarily. (Looking past the arcane imagery, it looks to be like he may be wearing finely crafted battle armor. That, plus his defeat quote, plus the title "the redeemer" make me think he may very well have been a holy warrior once upon a time. I like to think that he was a righteous paladin who endured hardship nobly but that once he successfully vanquished a powerful demon or sorcerer and no longer had a clear enemy he lost his discipline. He had amassed a powerful army for himself in his quest to defeat this evil was not willing to give up this power or the greater power to be gleaned from his enemies arcane tomes once the threat was gone.)
Lethe is a female and the Succubus is the only female demon in the game, but she really doesn't strike me as a Succubus. For one thing, she clearly has no wings. She looks finely and fairly modestly dressed, and her tactics are far more subtle than exploiting man's lusts. She really looks more like a refined Satyr Druidess than a demon, perhaps indicating that that is what she was back in life (if so, it may help explain how she got the druidess Talia to speak to her instead of only to the normal druidic nature spirits and how she convinced her to kill herself). She seems most closely connected to Esus (obviously despair is a big part of suicide so she would be tied to Agares too, but she does trick people into despairing and Esus's vault is also designed to trick people into giving up on what they once believed in in order to make them accept the machine of hell), so maintaining the illusion of her former appearance rather than gaining a new form that manifests her deepest sins seems fitting. I would probably use something like a Svartalfar Mage.
Since the Infernal Worldspell can only be cast by the Hyborem unit, you should probably come up with different world spells for the other Infernal Leaders, perhaps based on their Lord of the Balor's temptation events.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
I agree here. He was the last one I filled in, and I was really unsatisfied with the death knight pick.
I went with a balor because of the aura of flame, but I'd forgotten about the Mardero model... Don't much care for using a hero like that, but it'll work. Quite a bit closer to his leaderhead.
I went with a Wraith because of the black flames surrounding his body, as that's always how I picture a wraith.
A wingless angel of death could be interesting, although I doubt it's as simple as removing the wings in nifskope with the custom animation. A svart mage would work. I get the same feel, but the only female demon is the succubus.
What were those events?
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
CIV4GameText_FFH2 said:
Obviously their spells wouldn't be exactly like their temptation events, but it could give you a general idea of their character.
I'm curious to figure out what these events do, as perhaps they could play into the attitudes of the leaders when they're fleshed out to a greater extent. That, and I'm curious to figure out what the ingame effect of coupling with succubi or The Duke would entail (Especially if said event occured on the turn after the Nantosuelta Constollation event occurs. I believe that's the "Auspicious time to plan Marriages" one.)
As far as other Minor Leaders, we DO know that Kane was the former ruler of the Malakim Empire (Overthrown by Varn) and was a warlord-despot. He would also keep the Calabim "in their place", thereby pointing to the fact that his armies are able to keep the vamps in check, Pre-Empyrean, which indicates a large standing army or some special anti-vamp weapon, perhaps. Its also known that he prefers to solve problems with violence, and respects legendary accomplishments with a sense of fear, as seen in his reaction to the messenger's recounting of Varn's accomplishments at the end of Kane's pedia. He also collects trophies of his fallen foes, such as the Orc Cheiftan's skull, and sends other skulls and heads to other cities to show he means buisness. And yet, he states that he considers this to be uncivilized. Odd, how the man who wants to assassinate Varn would consider sending the heads of your foes back as uncivilized.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
The Judecca event makes you declare war on Basium, the Lethe event makes you loose 1 unit (the one the event happens to), Ouzza event costs you 1 pop in every city, the Statius event gives one city (the one where the event happened) to Statius, and the Sallos and Meresin events don't really do anything. However, the events that don't really demand anything from you don't give you peace with the Infernal leader for nearly as long as those that are more costly.
Basium never gets any of these events. Personally, I think that this scenario should give a diplomatic penalty with him each time you accept any deal with a devil. I also think it could be rather interesting if agreeing to the Sallos event had a small chance of introducing Averax the Cambion of the Sheaim into the game, perhaps as Sallos's vassal or permanent ally.
I'm not sure that Kane was really overthrown by Varn, as Varn was mostly a religious leader and Kane purely secular. I was under the impression that the Malakim were not a united people before Varn found them and that Kane was just the leader of one of the stronger desert tribes. I assumed that he was convinced to join a "permanent alliance" with the leaders of the other tribes and would continue to be a powerful voice on the council that was in charge of the secular government of the unified Malakim (I assume that the fact the sun sphere is about Medation would mean that their government would be some sort of republic). Also, Kane does not have a Pedia entry, at least not in the unmodded/unpatched FfH 0.41, so I don't know what Korias is talking about.
Basium never gets any of these events. Personally, I think that this scenario should give a diplomatic penalty with him each time you accept any deal with a devil. I also think it could be rather interesting if agreeing to the Sallos event had a small chance of introducing Averax the Cambion of the Sheaim into the game, perhaps as Sallos's vassal or permanent ally.
I'm not sure that Kane was really overthrown by Varn, as Varn was mostly a religious leader and Kane purely secular. I was under the impression that the Malakim were not a united people before Varn found them and that Kane was just the leader of one of the stronger desert tribes. I assumed that he was convinced to join a "permanent alliance" with the leaders of the other tribes and would continue to be a powerful voice on the council that was in charge of the secular government of the unified Malakim (I assume that the fact the sun sphere is about Medation would mean that their government would be some sort of republic). Also, Kane does not have a Pedia entry, at least not in the unmodded/unpatched FfH 0.41, so I don't know what Korias is talking about.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
It was written by Killer_Clowns and used in the Minor Leaders mod by Notque, so it's not actually cannon. Seems to fit his leaderhead though.
Spoiler :
