This is an impressive piece of work. In some ways, it looks like Age of Wonders modded onto the Civ platform. The tradeoffs are interesting - certainly as a custom design AOW can do the tactical battles, schools of magic and multilevel worlds seamlessly. On the other hand, FFH certainly brings in a much richer technology, civilization and economic model. Just wondering if there are other old AOW players out there who have experience and comparisons between the two games. Again, nice job.
[MOD] Fall from Heaven II
- Thread starter Kael
- Start date
Kael
Deity
adamant said:
I played a little Age of Wonders (the first version), but I never really liked it. The tactical combat always pulled me out of the large picture strategy which I wanted to get back to.
I did love Heroes of Might and Magic, Master of Magic and an old game called Fantasy General (and of course tons of roleplaying games).
But I always came back to Civ4 for gameplay. I loved the fantasy genre but Civ was the only game where I built an empire and I really felt like the empire was my creation. Not just a functional copy of the same empire I made the last time I played that faction.
As much as I loved Heroes of Might and Magic, I played each faction once (and loved it) but I had little desire to play again. The enemies were always at war with you so your goals were always the same. Build up your troops and push them back. There was no ability to design the layout of your empire or your city beside the very basic.
I think the ability to play without opponents (when you aren't at war) and choose the exact moment you want to dive into the competition (and the chance the computer will do the same to you) is the true magic of Civ4. TGA recently posted about how we wouldnt want the Civ4 AI to "play to win". The fact that the computer AI plays as a game entity instead of an opponent is what makes this game great.
So what doesn't Civ do well?
The one thing they have maintained from the begining is the fact that all of the civs basically play alike. Different civs may have some statistical differences (and the game is tuned to the point where those "minor" differences can have a major effect) but they all play the same. The challenges, strengths and weaknesses of each are bascially the same. I would love to see a version where the different civs actually played differently. Just my opinion.
You're right that having both balance and different playing styles for different 'teams' is a real goal. I thought AOW, especially,2, did a good job of this with the magic system - the different schools of magic could transform the world in very different ways and were exclusive. Starcraft, in the evil RTS world, also comes to mind.
It really wasn't fair to attribute these factors in FFH to AOW which just drew on the general fantasy tradition. I do long to build an elven civilization which lurks in the mists of the woods striving to renew the green world.... Civ's technology and culture mechanisms do give rich opportunities to differentiate.
Anyway, thanks for replying to my mostly vapid musings.
It really wasn't fair to attribute these factors in FFH to AOW which just drew on the general fantasy tradition. I do long to build an elven civilization which lurks in the mists of the woods striving to renew the green world.... Civ's technology and culture mechanisms do give rich opportunities to differentiate.
Anyway, thanks for replying to my mostly vapid musings.
Kael
Deity
adamant said:
No problem, I love chatting about game stuff. I wrote a design article (linked in my signature) that mentions the point you made about starcraft. It was awesome to see a strategy game where the factions are radically different. I am hoping to have some of the kind of distinctivness in FfH.
Kael said:
Sounds like a great plan, figuring out the tech tree was the most frustraiting part of the current version and having more obvious categories and good and evil paths should make for a better experience.
Oh and here's a new CTD, just hit end turn and enjoy:
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
I wanted to be the first one on here today (my Birthday), and say this is a great Mod, keep up the good work.
Also item 840?
Also item 840?
Hi Ppl 
1 graphic bug I found: the worriirs auf Blaseraph are switching the graphic of worrir and then back to special blaseraph worrior. Semms as you put the new graphic over the old and CivIV cant show it correctly. (but dont ask me, im absolutely no pro at this matter)
some other thought: Is there a short summary of the changes in the different Races from patch to patch ?
Means - Im allways anxious to try new things out, but if I dont know where to look for them its kind a difficult. (like hunter of Blaseraph can catch Slaves and so on) Just some short lines what is new
Kind regards
Bheleu
1 graphic bug I found: the worriirs auf Blaseraph are switching the graphic of worrir and then back to special blaseraph worrior. Semms as you put the new graphic over the old and CivIV cant show it correctly. (but dont ask me, im absolutely no pro at this matter)
some other thought: Is there a short summary of the changes in the different Races from patch to patch ?
Means - Im allways anxious to try new things out, but if I dont know where to look for them its kind a difficult. (like hunter of Blaseraph can catch Slaves and so on) Just some short lines what is new
Kind regards
Bheleu
Chalid
Black Dragon
Happy Bithday strategyonly!
Hian the Frog
TR Designer and XML
Hi,
1) @ Strategyonly : As we say in France, "Joyeux Anniversaire" (Happy Birthday)
2) @ Kael : I read your last posts with a great smile.
Tech changes would probably a good thing.
I agree with you about the fact there all civs follow the same way to build their empire and so. Making each civ very different from others would be fantastic.
3) @ Kael and the Team:
I don't know what you done with animals but it's now very very difficult to hunt them. Even with strong bonuses (Combat I, II, III + Animal Hu.) your scout often finish in the stomach of what was his prey.
The Frog.
1) @ Strategyonly : As we say in France, "Joyeux Anniversaire" (Happy Birthday)
2) @ Kael : I read your last posts with a great smile.
Tech changes would probably a good thing.
I agree with you about the fact there all civs follow the same way to build their empire and so. Making each civ very different from others would be fantastic.
3) @ Kael and the Team:
I don't know what you done with animals but it's now very very difficult to hunt them. Even with strong bonuses (Combat I, II, III + Animal Hu.) your scout often finish in the stomach of what was his prey.
The Frog.
Hian the Frog
TR Designer and XML
Chalid,
It seems thet you are working on the Beholder. Right?
A new barb monster ? A new civ unit ?
If right, it's a good thing. A fantasy world without Beholder is like a clean politician, impossible !
The Frog.
It seems thet you are working on the Beholder. Right?
A new barb monster ? A new civ unit ?
If right, it's a good thing. A fantasy world without Beholder is like a clean politician, impossible !
The Frog.
Chalid
Black Dragon
The Beholder is for TheLopez. Don't know if Kael will use it in FfH.
wazward
Chieftain
tilykke med fødselsdag strategyonly from sunny denmark
ive been thinking a little about the vampire race and in particular the blood pit that is all ready present. maybe the lords of the vampires could use their metamorphic skills to craft humen flesh into various hideous creations replacing a barracks. i also have an idea that individual vampires are full of pride and extremley territorial so can you write a small chance that a rival lord will declare independance for one of your cities increasing with distance from capital and therefore the ruling lord. the same blood pits could be the process for other diabolical creations how about instead of an aqueduct the vampire creates a canal of metamorphised human capilleries to carry water. if you like these ideas theres plenty more. for example an obvious scout for a vampire colony could be a bat.
ive been thinking a little about the vampire race and in particular the blood pit that is all ready present. maybe the lords of the vampires could use their metamorphic skills to craft humen flesh into various hideous creations replacing a barracks. i also have an idea that individual vampires are full of pride and extremley territorial so can you write a small chance that a rival lord will declare independance for one of your cities increasing with distance from capital and therefore the ruling lord. the same blood pits could be the process for other diabolical creations how about instead of an aqueduct the vampire creates a canal of metamorphised human capilleries to carry water. if you like these ideas theres plenty more. for example an obvious scout for a vampire colony could be a bat.
first thing first great mod thats eating my life... been playing it mainly as multiplayer hotseat and had very few problems with it but these are the points weve found -->
1) playing lurchip no one has ever been able to create dwarf warriors, if they get runes they dont show up on the build list, and obviously they cant get barracks to build them in the other way.
2) ai being a bit dumb, dont know if this is a feature of civ or the mod but a game was being palled where the ai had built a village in a square which upon bronze working was found to have copper (the only source that the calabim had access to in this game) and didnt then mine it, this maybe can be explained but its not the end of the story. the copper square came under the influence of a player (human) who minned it for the copper but was then re-tacken by the calabim, who even though she now had access to a roaded copper mine within her boarders, still showed up as not having copper... any ideas?
3) the 2 to many buildings fault has hit a bit
4) the grigori... there first adventure comes to early, allows for a mad rush game... but then they dont tend to get em any more. my friend found as soon as he built wonders in a city it would either a) if it was his caitol reduce his odds of getting a adventure in favour of other great people b) or if he built wonders in his other cities they would outstrip his capitol for great people production again leading to no new adventures (in fairness one did appear very late game)... perhapes allowing adveture guilds earlier but lose the basic great people gain? or again make adventure guilds (or equivilent maybe another wonder?) that converts either the odds of generating an adventure (ie fix it at 50-75%) or coverts the type of great people points made by other wonders to adventures (ie if someting creates 2 sage points it now creates 1 sage 1 advenutrer)
just our 2 cents
thanks for the mod!
1) playing lurchip no one has ever been able to create dwarf warriors, if they get runes they dont show up on the build list, and obviously they cant get barracks to build them in the other way.
2) ai being a bit dumb, dont know if this is a feature of civ or the mod but a game was being palled where the ai had built a village in a square which upon bronze working was found to have copper (the only source that the calabim had access to in this game) and didnt then mine it, this maybe can be explained but its not the end of the story. the copper square came under the influence of a player (human) who minned it for the copper but was then re-tacken by the calabim, who even though she now had access to a roaded copper mine within her boarders, still showed up as not having copper... any ideas?
3) the 2 to many buildings fault has hit a bit
4) the grigori... there first adventure comes to early, allows for a mad rush game... but then they dont tend to get em any more. my friend found as soon as he built wonders in a city it would either a) if it was his caitol reduce his odds of getting a adventure in favour of other great people b) or if he built wonders in his other cities they would outstrip his capitol for great people production again leading to no new adventures (in fairness one did appear very late game)... perhapes allowing adveture guilds earlier but lose the basic great people gain? or again make adventure guilds (or equivilent maybe another wonder?) that converts either the odds of generating an adventure (ie fix it at 50-75%) or coverts the type of great people points made by other wonders to adventures (ie if someting creates 2 sage points it now creates 1 sage 1 advenutrer)
just our 2 cents
thanks for the mod!
DREWid said:
I like the many buildings, it forces you to specialize your cities a lot more. Just wanted to post a bugi found:
When you found a new cities (if you are protective) Any units in the same square as the city is founded (And probably, tho i havnt confirmed this, all within your new culteral border) does not regain the Homeland promotions.
Nice mod otherwise.
Ennet said:
sorry didnt make myself clear! didnt mean there were to many new types of building... in fact i love them! ... i ment the previous reported fault that if you build too many buildings in a city the prority level doesnt remove the old ones from the graphic display and crashes the game!
Dragonlord
Fantasy Warlord
Kael said:
I couldn't agree more! I'm still waiting for someone to FINALLY redo Master of Magic... that was one great game! And I loved Fantasy General too - the game system of Panzer General with fantasy units, I loved it!
The problem with the tactical combat in AoW was: it simply took too long! I loved the tactical element in MoM, though - those battles were short and sweet. Ahhh, the nostalgia...
Back on topic: Love this mod even more than FFH1, and that's saying something! I've played several civs now and found no serious problems - but lots of fun stuff!
The only problem I have is the lacking documentation - it's often hard to figure out what effects buildings, spells and whatnot have. I understand, however, that you're concentrating on other things first.
Kael
Deity
Bheleu21 said:Hi Ppl
1 graphic bug I found: the worriirs auf Blaseraph are switching the graphic of worrir and then back to special blaseraph worrior. Semms as you put the new graphic over the old and CivIV cant show it correctly. (but dont ask me, im absolutely no pro at this matter)
some other thought: Is there a short summary of the changes in the different Races from patch to patch ?
Means - Im allways anxious to try new things out, but if I dont know where to look for them its kind a difficult. (like hunter of Blaseraph can catch Slaves and so on) Just some short lines what is new
Kind regards
Bheleu
The patch thread in the first post lists all fo the changes for the current version. The changelog thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=171497) lists the changes that are checked into the next version.
Kael
Deity
Hian the Frog said:Hi,
1) @ Strategyonly : As we say in France, "Joyeux Anniversaire" (Happy Birthday)
2) @ Kael : I read your last posts with a great smile.
Tech changes would probably a good thing.
I agree with you about the fact there all civs follow the same way to build their empire and so. Making each civ very different from others would be fantastic.
3) @ Kael and the Team:
I don't know what you done with animals but it's now very very difficult to hunt them. Even with strong bonuses (Combat I, II, III + Animal Hu.) your scout often finish in the stomach of what was his prey.
The Frog.
Many people noticed that all fo the animal units were getting really bad combat odds for their strength. This was because the handicap info applied a negative vs animals even at the highest difficulty. That penalty was removed, so now a 4 strength bear really is 4 strength (much to the dissapointment of your poor hunters).
Now that the odds are working correctly im probably going to reduce the strength of each of the animals a little so they are quite as intimidating.
