[MOD] Fall from Heaven II

[hawkeye72]

The readme file in the mod/Fall from Heaven 2 013/ directory has the version number in it.

From the readme file:
Fall from Heaven 2
Version 0.13d

 

[Broken Hawk]

Hi Kael,

Attached is a zip file containing the *.ico file using the title graphic and a desktop shortcut. I had hoped to make it one file that could be unzipped or executed directly to the desktop. However, that appears to be beyond my capabilities. I'm sure someone else can do it if they are interested.

Broken Hawk

 

[hawkeye72]

Yeap he cant attack, and when he gets to 100xp he wont level any more (there are a few ways to get him more xp, but all obscure things and nothing to useful).

It is possible that he will get an additional free xp for being an arcane unit, but that chance gets lower the more xp he gains so its unlikely (i think it bottoms out at about a 2% chance per turn).

hey, right after you said 2% chance he leveled while he was crossing the sea in a boat. He's now got 101 pts. He has been at 100 for a while now though so it's mostly just the timing from when you said it.

 

[hawkeye72]

I was curious about how far you could push the domination spell:

I couldn't even select Acheron to try to cast it on him.

I cast it on Rosier the Fallen. Being that he's a hero for a different religion I didn't know if I could do it. Instead I discovered that Corlindale is now working for the other team.

Nice twist.

Some additional text about the spell failing... "and <caster's name> has been twisted and warped into aligning himself with <target nation's name>." Or something like that.

Good thing I was saving often to try to repeat that druid disappearance... no luck on that so far, but I still need another treant.

 

[hawkeye72]

If I sail Corlindale up to a city in a caravel (so no open border agreement) and cast a domination spell, then if it is successful I now have two units in the space with my caravel (which only holds one unit.)

I sailed away and the converted assassin was standing on the water (without the water walking promotion.)

At the beginning of the next round she was booted from their borders. I'm not sure how to make it more realistic because the caster should be able to cast it, but maybe the converted unit should die from drowning? I don't think it should be the caster since they're already on the boat, right?

 

[Duane_Loone]

I've been enjoying your mod for some time now, thanks to mr. thealien_83. Now, I'm no Civ ace or anything. But playing as the Elohim got me thinking. They're supposed to be very defensive and all, good for peaceful players. But the Homeland promotion... It's ok I guess. But what about some attrition damage to enemy units entering their lands, Rise of Nations style? It could be an infinitesimal amount of damage that really wouldn't slow down a large army, but it would at least deter the occasional raider from pillaging their countryside. Of course, an Open Borders agreement wouldn't cause attrition damage. Now, I'm not sure it's even doable, but wouldn't it be cool? Cheers

 

[eldooardoe]

HEY Kael, Team!

Like "my" new Infernal Flag, LOL

That's a cool flag!

 

[Kael]

I've been enjoying your mod for some time now, thanks to mr. thealien_83. Now, I'm no Civ ace or anything. But playing as the Elohim got me thinking. They're supposed to be very defensive and all, good for peaceful players. But the Homeland promotion... It's ok I guess. But what about some attrition damage to enemy units entering their lands, Rise of Nations style? It could be an infinitesimal amount of damage that really wouldn't slow down a large army, but it would at least deter the occasional raider from pillaging their countryside. Of course, an Open Borders agreement wouldn't cause attrition damage. Now, I'm not sure it's even doable, but wouldn't it be cool? Cheers

Its very easy to do, the problem is getting the AI to understand it. Right now the AI is all programmed to invade your lands, fortify by your cities and pillage your improvements. If we added attrition damage the AI wouldn't understand where it was coming from and would become extremly vulnerable to it (killing off its own units).

 

[Kael]

I was curious about how far you could push the domination spell:

I couldn't even select Acheron to try to cast it on him.

All of the dragons are immune to spells.

I cast it on Rosier the Fallen. Being that he's a hero for a different religion I didn't know if I could do it. Instead I discovered that Corlindale is now working for the other team.

Nice twist.

Some additional text about the spell failing... "and <caster's name> has been twisted and warped into aligning himself with <target nation's name>." Or something like that.

Good thing I was saving often to try to repeat that druid disappearance... no luck on that so far, but I still need another treant.

Yeah, creature stealing is a really hard ability to balance in any game because you significantly weaken your opponent at the same time as you strengthen yourself. There are a few ways to work around it. Most commonly you will see games add a fairly easy counter mechanism, allow it only to effect significantly weaker creatures, or grant it only as a doublewin^1 condition. But I really like the idea of domination being a mental battle between the caster and victim, and whichever one wins gets both units.

It is a bit chancy^2 but it keeps players from being able to spam dominate effectivly.


Translation from Kaelspeak:

^1 Doublewin: A condition that allows players who have already effectivly won significantly greater position. They often appear overpowered but they are really the designers way of letting winning players finish up their win without the tedium of grinding through opponents. The avatars, and to a lesser extent the Pit Beast and the Hosts of the Einherjar are intentional doublewin mechanics.

^2 Chancy: Mechanics that relly to heavily on random components. They tend to encourage players to reload until they get the desired result.

 

[TheJopa]

I dont like chancey
Duane Loone are you that guy who couldn't see resources?

 

[chocmushroom]

^2 Chancy: Mechanics that relly to heavily on random components. They tend to encourage players to reload until they get the desired result.

hehehehehe Like it.

I must admit, i've been known to play like this........ but only on the harder levels & only at the start (I think that if the AI gets extra units & free worker 2 start, I need some help from them goody huts)
After a few turns (once i've got 3-4 cities) I don't do it. (OK, i admitt it, i did it yesterday, but seeing as I had 3 attackers who had at least a 97% chance to win a battle, ALL 3 of them died trying to attack one city, I thought the AI had cheated, so I did the same )

 

[thealien_83]

I dont like chancey
Duane Loone are you that guy who couldn't see resources?

Me either, anytime I commit a hero to battle with less than 100% chance of victory I feel nervous. Mostly because I know Civ likes to equate "small chance of loss" to "you're most likely getting smoked".

And no, that's not him. *s* He's just another one of my hapless friends whom I've inducted.

Cheers!

ps. We managed to solve that issue after a good deal of fiddling around.

ps#2. Speaking of Domination, do you know your chance of success when casting it? I've never tried myself, but I would be very dubious of doing it if I had no idea of how big a risk I ran of losing my precious precious caster. And anyway, what determines the % of success?

 

[Duane_Loone]

Duane Loone are you that guy who couldn't see resources?

Whaat? No, no, no. Don't confuse me with that amateur ;P I know exactly where all my resources are.

Resources exist to be consumed. And consumed they will be, if not by this generation then by some future. By what right does this forgotten future seek to deny us our birthright? None I say! Let us take what is ours, chew and eat our fill.

 

[Kael]

ps#2. Speaking of Domination, do you know your chance of success when casting it? I've never tried myself, but I would be very dubious of doing it if I had no idea of how big a risk I ran of losing my precious precious caster. And anyway, what determines the % of success?

def isResisted(target,caster,iModify):
	iResist = gc.getDefineINT('SPELL_RESIST_CHANCE_BASE') + iModify
	iResist = iResist + (target.getLevel() * 5)
	if target.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_MAGIC_RESISTANCE')):
		iResist = iResist * 2
	if target.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_HERO')):
		iResist = iResist * 2
	iResist = iResist - (caster.getLevel() * 2)
	if caster.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_CHANNELING2')):
		iResist = iResist - 10
	if caster.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_CHANNELING3')):
		iResist = iResist - 20
	if cf.FFHHasBuilding(gc.getPlayer(caster.getOwner()), gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_TOWER_OF_ALTERATION')):
		iResist = iResist - 10
	if iResist >= gc.getDefineINT('SPELL_RESIST_CHANCE_MAX'):
		iResist = gc.getDefineINT('SPELL_RESIST_CHANCE_MAX')
	if iResist <= gc.getDefineINT('SPELL_RESIST_CHANCE_MIN'):
		iResist = gc.getDefineINT('SPELL_RESIST_CHANCE_MIN')
	if (CyGame().getSorenRandNum(100, "Bob") <= iResist or target.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_MAGIC_IMMUNE'))):
		CyInterface().addMessage(target.getOwner(),True,25,'Spell resisted.','AS2D_DISCOVERBONUS',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Promotions/Magicresistance.dds',ColorTypes(8),target.getX(),target.getY(),True,True)
		CyInterface().addMessage(caster.getOwner(),True,25,'Spell resisted.','AS2D_DISCOVERBONUS',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Promotions/Magicresistance.dds',ColorTypes(8),target.getX(),target.getY(),True,True)
		return True
	return False

This is the function that is used to determine if a target resists a spell. Its KaelCode, so it probably kinda works, kinda... probably.

So lets see what we have, iModify is a spells change to the base odds. Domination passes in a +30 (it is one of the easiest spells to resist). The SPELL_RESIST_BASE_CHANCE is set in your global defines and can be adjusted with the editor. It is a base 10%. So we start off with a base 40% chance the target will resist the spell.

Additionaly the target gets +5% to his resist chance per level. Lets assume he is 4th level, so thats +20% and we are up to a 60% to resist the spell.

If the target has the magic resistence promotion his resist chance is doubled, if he has the hero promotion his resist chance is doubled.

Then the caster begins to effect the odds. We lower the resist chance by 2% per level of the caster. Lets assume its a level 8 archmage casting the spell (you have to be an archmage to cast it). So thats -16% to the odds and we are down to 44%.

Next if the caster has channeling2 (is a t3 caster mage/conjurer/priest or higher) the resist chance is lowered 10%. If the caster has channeling3 (is a t4 caster archmage/summoner/high priest) the resist chance is lowered by 20%. An archmage is both so this takes our odds down 30% to 14%.

If the casters owner has a Tower of Alteration the odds are reduced by 10%.

Then we make sure the chance is no less than a certain amount and no more than a certain amount. We never want a target to be completly immune to a spell (unless it has the magic immune promotion) and we always want them to have some chance to resist (all setable with the editor).

So thats it, with our 8th level archmage caster our 4th level target has a 14% chance to resist the spell.

 

[hawkeye72]

I was using Corindale to cast domination. Not sure how that figures into the mage/archmage equation... It seemed like a 50/50 chance of turning a level 3 assassin, but if I stayed in the same city I lost Corlindale every time on the second cast for another assassin. If I went up the coast to the next city, then I could get another catch. (Back and forth, but it seemed if I stayed in one city I would lose my caster. From what Kael is saying this seems like complete coincidence. Interesting how the brain creates patterns.)

 

[Teg_Navanis]

I was using Corindale to cast domination. Not sure how that figures into the mage/archmage equation... It seemed like a 50/50 chance of turning a level 3 assassin, but if I stayed in the same city I lost Corlindale every time on the second cast for another assassin. If I went up the coast to the next city, then I could get another catch. (Back and forth, but it seemed if I stayed in one city I would lose my caster. From what Kael is saying this seems like complete coincidence. Interesting how the brain creates patterns.)

Do you mean you reloaded and tried the same thing over and over again? If so, the explanation is rather simple: Civ4 isn't completely random. All random numbers that will be drawn are in a sense pre-determined and non-random, but you as a human usually won't notice this. If you want other results every time you reload a game, select "new random seed on reload" in the custom game screen or do some other things after reloading, like moving units around or attacking other units.

 

[thealien_83]

I see, I see. That certainly sheds some light on the likely outcomes of using said spell. Much obliged.
But, just to be precise, the game itself won't go ahead and show you these odds outright, comparative to for example how it shows you clearly what odds you have to win a fight. So in order to assess said odds, I would either have to make a vague estimate on my own or sit down and calculate the odds based on the numbers provided. If possible to add, it might not be a bad thing. But hardly vital.
I am decidedly more inclined to start using the spell now, anyhow.

Cheers!

Oh yeah, almost forgot. What is this 'Tower of Alteration' mentioned? I don't believe I've run across any such building/wonder, and I tend to have a decently good memory of such stuff. Something yet to be implemented, or just something I've managed to miss?

 

[hawkeye72]

Altar of Luonnotar: It seems that the blessed promotion applies to all units built on the continent (or every where?), but the definition says it should only apply to units built within the city.

 

[Kael]

Altar of Luonnotar: It seems that the blessed promotion applies to all units built on the continent (or every where?), but the definition says it should only apply to units built within the city.

That changed recently, I'll update the pedia entry.

 

[Kael]

I see, I see. That certainly sheds some light on the likely outcomes of using said spell. Much obliged.
But, just to be precise, the game itself won't go ahead and show you these odds outright, comparative to for example how it shows you clearly what odds you have to win a fight. So in order to assess said odds, I would either have to make a vague estimate on my own or sit down and calculate the odds based on the numbers provided. If possible to add, it might not be a bad thing. But hardly vital.
I am decidedly more inclined to start using the spell now, anyhow.

Cheers!

Oh yeah, almost forgot. What is this 'Tower of Alteration' mentioned? I don't believe I've run across any such building/wonder, and I tend to have a decently good memory of such stuff. Something yet to be implemented, or just something I've managed to miss?

Its new in 0.14.