Mod-Modders Guide to Fall Further

[MagisterCultuum]

XML is not a programming language at all, just a markup language. (Well, I think there may be some stuff that XML can do that counts as real programing, like the ls system for building graphics, but that is some of the hardest stuff to mod.) XML just stores data for the DLL to read. The code that actually does stuff is the SDK, written in C++, a tougher language than python. (Although I believe Xienwolf claims it is actually easier and a lot more powerful, and that people are just scared of it because there are so many interconnected files and because they must all be compiled into a single dll before you can test any changes.)

 

[2Hydroclopse]

Oddly, of the languages mentioned, C++ is the only one I've really dabbled in -if in fact what little I know even qualifies as such-.

I suppose the first thing I would like to tackle, if I were to start modding, is the tech tree -I rather like the beyond the swords tech tree; so I would basically be removing coal and oil components from the BTS tech tree to adapt it to the lore location of FF/FFH; then, finding clone-techs from FF/FFH-tree to replace the BTS techs where applicable; then, adding on the FF/FFH exclusive techs where no similar BTS techs exists-.

What would it take -knowledge/access wise- to accomplish that? -other than more time than I have?-




-I post here because, this modification is intended to be a direct deviation from FF-

 

[MagisterCultuum]

For the most part that would only involve changing the XML (mostly C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Fall from Heaven 2\Assets\XML\Technologies\CIV4TechInfos.xml, but also other files that reference these techs), but if you want the arrows to line up with your tech tree at all I think you'll need a bit of python (just C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Fall from Heaven 2\Assets\python\Screens\CvTechChooser, I think, but I never really bother to change the arrows when I change the tech tree) too.

 

[2Hydroclopse]

Thanks a million Magister.
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Looking at the BTS version of CIV4TechInfos.xml and comparing with FF there seems to be much more info in the BTS. Were those data entries moved elsewhere for FF? Or were they just extraneous?

 

[2Hydroclopse]

-I dislike double posting, but this is slightly off-topic of my other post.-

I had been making plans to attempt modding FF for a while. One of the hardest features, to determine whether or not it was possible, was an idea of having just a handful of civilizations, that through racial specific researching could turn into one of the many diverse civilizations- that at this moment are selectable from start-.

A few moments ago when working on a personalized version of FF's tech tree I was reminded of how some civs start with rare and spicy techs that no-one else can get, I was also reminded of the Strength of Will vs Pass Through the Ether techs and how they conflict each other.

With these two working concepts, do you think that it would be possible to create a goliath tech tree with many of the techs where they are, but alongside the normal tree have a diversification path accessible from a vanilla civ starting tech.

For instance, say Human is one of the vanilla civs: Down the line they could access techs that would determine which lore civilization they became, and have these techs also be one way; imagine said human civ being able to become bannor, archos, etc etc each race type having its own vanilla civ -I think scions would qualify as humans, at least before they go zombie-.

This is a rather obscenely big idea -resource wise- and I question whether it is even mod possible -without having to seriously rewrite the sdk and such-.

 

[xienwolf]

For the Technologies: With Fall Further we removed some of the XML tags where they weren't actually saying anything, they used the default numbers. So ours looks quite a bit different from base Civ4 BtS files. They have a TON of entries with >0< values, those we remove. Also anything with /> is blank, and we remove that as well. You can put all of it back in if you want to though.


For the second post:

How do Strength of Will and Pass Through the Ether conflict?

You could create a larger tech tree easily, and you can make it have as many pathways as you desire. I think you are asking if it is possible to prevent a Civilization from going down 2 "Lore Civ" pathways, that is possible to do for the most part. We don't have it set up so that you can completely block access to a tech (that I recall) based on knowing another one, but you could make the other techs so expensive they would never be realistically gained. Though that doesn't keep you from trading for them.... hrm.

It would be a fairly simple SDK rewrite to allow the TechCostShift/Mod fields to make another tech impossible to gain, even through trading. But I am reasonably certain that isn't possible just yet.

 

[2Hydroclopse]

Hm, what makes the special starting techs un-trade-able? The fact that they can't be researched? Perhaps a special unit called a cultural adviser or something could teach the flavor/lore techs.

-Ah, and as for the Will vs Ether, for some reason I had thought researching one got rid of the other, I just checked it with an advanced start and this doesn't seem to be the case >.<.-

 

[xienwolf]

Starting techs cannot be researched because they have a negative cost. So you should be able to block the ability to research TechB after gaining TechA by having TechA apply a -999999999 TechCostMod to TechB. But this leaves the techs able to be traded to you still. You have to disable the boolean <bTrade> to stop trade right now, though we COULD make it respond with a claim to be untradeable when the cost is negative, that would allow the CostShift/Mod fields to block technologies completely.

 

[2Hydroclopse]

In this instance, I think trading of these techs should be blocked from the start, otherwise the multiple AI would technology trade the night away and end up being the same as each other without the preferred possibility of significant diversity; that, and if some of the techs were meant to be racial specific, then it might be awkward for some races to walk down the lore path not meant for them -though i still need to look over the lore docs to get the specs more in line-, ex. an elf to start becoming Khazad or something.

-Thanks for the 2 methods of controlling tech though, wasn't yet sure on the tags.-

 

[xienwolf]

If the intro of each pathway is untradeable, that should work well then. Once you are IN the path you can trade with others who are also in that pathway, but you can't force anyone down your path by giving away your intro tech. Could work well.

 

[2Hydroclopse]

Is it possible to have a resource give a bonus to an improvement's yield? Or is resource handling to weird for that? Example for first question: Having the corn resource allows all farms to have a small boost in food production.

 

[xienwolf]

Resources already work that way. Though IIRC it happens through the improvement itself gaining a bonus based on resources on the tile.

 

[hbar]

I think he was asking about a global boost - for example, having one source of air mana increase the yield of all windmills.

 

[xienwolf]

Ah, that would certainly require DLL work to accomplish. But as with most things, it is possible.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Could you make it so that improvements (my which I pretty much mean Unique Features) can have a minimum and maximum number of tiles in their ares, so they can be limited to only appearing on large continents, tiny islands, small lakes or large seas? I find it really annoying when unique features that grant a free resource appear on single tile islands and so the resource can never be gathered, and there are some unique features I'd like to add that thematically should only occur on small islands.


Also, I think that the Flavor Mod end of winter code messes up the resources granted by unique features, and so should probably be set to ignore tiles with improvements, or at least unique ones.

 

[xienwolf]

Probably easier accomplished within a mapscript. But I could add such a function to the wishlist. Should get around to it in a couple of years

 

[Omegon3]

OK... I've reviewed Xienwolf's list of objects within Fall Further and I'm having difficulty determing where to make a certain change so I'm hoping somone (?) can point me in the right direction.

Having played a couple of FF games one thing I've really noticed is that disciple units (priests and missionaries) really gain XP at a LOT slower rate than in the standard FfH game (in the case of missionaries, the XP gain is non-existent!!). This is an improvement I noticed in FfH when #2 was released and I REALLY liked it.

Question: Let's say I wanted to make the same change in FF... What would I need to modify in order to accomplish this?

Thanks.

 

[xienwolf]

To increase the rate of free XP you add some <fCasterXPRate> to a promotion on the unit, that makes them gain XP quicker.

Main reason XP is slower is because you are encouraged to find buildings which enhance this attribute for your units, and because we moved from a chance per turn to a flat "You get some every turn" to allow players to predict precisely when their units will attain each landmark. The formula may be slightly flawed in making things go TOO slow eventually, or capping out too early.

 

[Omegon3]

To increase the rate of free XP you add some <fCasterXPRate> to a promotion on the unit, that makes them gain XP quicker.

Main reason XP is slower is because you are encouraged to find buildings which enhance this attribute for your units, and because we moved from a chance per turn to a flat "You get some every turn" to allow players to predict precisely when their units will attain each landmark. The formula may be slightly flawed in making things go TOO slow eventually, or capping out too early.

So every civilization has such a building (to increase rate gain)? I saw one for the Elohim (though it didn't APPEAR to speed up the XP gain a lot for them...), but didn't notice one for the other civs (Calabim, Kahdi, Sheaim, Mazatl, and the Austerin). However, if they existed I probably built them... However, I was up to turn 350 (before my game finally crashed due to a Calabim problem I reported) and only had a couple of civilizations with even one priest that had reached the "high priest" level (with the change in FfH, I would have had the full complement -- 4 -- and enough left over for Paladdins and Eiodins -- or whatever you call the evil version). I only had a few that had even reached level "5".

Any advice?? Thanks Xienwolf!!!

 

[xienwolf]

Each religion should have modifiers on their temple IIRC. I think Holy Shrines have an even larger one, and the Altar probably has a pretty hefty one as well. But largely Priests are designed now to require some combat to make ends meet. Whether that is a good design or not is the crux of the discussion I imagine. Same with Casters getting to Archmage, though they have the option to gain that XP through their summons, albeit very slowly.