[MOD] More Naval AI
- Thread starter Tholal
- Start date
Fafnir13
King
On the subject of Goblin Fort defenders: Why is it a 4/6??? I know that's base FFH 2, but it really bugs me, especially on the odd times one has wandered into my territory. It just seems unreasonably strong for the early game.
On archery in general, the comps need to layoff having so many archer type units in attack stacks. A few for defense is good and you certainly want them in your towns, but stacks of 8 running around thinking they're good for assaulting places? Maybe if you're the elves....but certainly not the Kahzad.
It certainly gave my heavily shock equipped army pause, but that was more incidental then anything else.
On archery in general, the comps need to layoff having so many archer type units in attack stacks. A few for defense is good and you certainly want them in your towns, but stacks of 8 running around thinking they're good for assaulting places? Maybe if you're the elves....but certainly not the Kahzad.
It certainly gave my heavily shock equipped army pause, but that was more incidental then anything else.
ChrisAdams3997
Prince
I just looked into this, it's already tied to difficulty level
After starting my first game with the new patch I have to ask: why are barbarian poison goblins casting a spell inside my borders that transforms them into poison archers?
Also, the Clan just ripped apart three civilizations before turn 133. Nothing wrong with that, I guess. But I just retired from the game seeing at turn 131 both Alexis and Cardith moving out with a 15 unit stack (Cardith with about 10 scouts...) from out their last city leaving only four weak defenders against about 10 axes with bronze. At turn 132 they both fell to the same civilization and that's the first time I ever saw something like that.
They died not because they were really being that overwhelmed but because they were not finding the right balance between offense and defense. It was just too bad for words.
Also, the Clan just ripped apart three civilizations before turn 133. Nothing wrong with that, I guess. But I just retired from the game seeing at turn 131 both Alexis and Cardith moving out with a 15 unit stack (Cardith with about 10 scouts...) from out their last city leaving only four weak defenders against about 10 axes with bronze. At turn 132 they both fell to the same civilization and that's the first time I ever saw something like that.
They died not because they were really being that overwhelmed but because they were not finding the right balance between offense and defense. It was just too bad for words.
mountain_man
Chieftain
First off, thanks Tholal for taking the time to keep improving the AI, it has really made FFH better!
Quick bug report for the 1.8beta version, when an AI player acquires a treasure chest (the pirate treasure chest event), but fails to open the chest, that AI player will remain in play during the game even after losing its final city...Was weird talking to the ghost of malhala... (after checking, the error can be reproduced for any AI player)
Quick bug report for the 1.8beta version, when an AI player acquires a treasure chest (the pirate treasure chest event), but fails to open the chest, that AI player will remain in play during the game even after losing its final city...Was weird talking to the ghost of malhala... (after checking, the error can be reproduced for any AI player)
Fafnir13
King
The AI really shouldn't be attacking units that will despawn in a turn. Of course, I'm not sure if the AI will ever learn how to deal with summon heavy army, especially the classic Specter+Lots of Death Mana.
Also in the game, had some Luchiurp mages suicide on the tail end of an attack. I know the odds couldn't have been good. The Amurite world spell was in effect at the time.
Incidentally, the Amurite world spell blocks hiring Mercenaries. Probably does in the base game too, but seems like a bug.
Also in the game, had some Luchiurp mages suicide on the tail end of an attack. I know the odds couldn't have been good. The Amurite world spell was in effect at the time.
Incidentally, the Amurite world spell blocks hiring Mercenaries. Probably does in the base game too, but seems like a bug.
Hey Chris, I would really like to congratulate you on your work regarding the barbarian AI. It is really an improvement. the thing is I think that the impact on the gameplay should be discussed. they are just out of character now. I like the fact that they are more active pillagers but not the fact that they tend make moves like a normal civilization.
Now they consistently tend to group themselves together and can even create groups of 10 or more. I had five barb units making the two tile dance around my capital without attacking and eventually that group grew to 15 units and would still continue to grow until they had enough to crack my capital if I didn't attack myself. If I'm losing more units than I'm killing barbarians something is not right.
On the other hand sometimes barbarian units back off if they feel they are no match for my warriors (returning with a larger group) -they are not supposed to do that. I'm also seeing barbarian cities creating warriors every three turns...
I even saw a diety AI losing a city to barbarians - you know that something is wrong if you see that.
even just a group of four lizard men is a real threat early on. and how about If I spawn in the middle of two barbarian (trait) civilizations? Or if I want to play with raging barbarians?
If they are going to move like a normal civilization then I want to have diplomacy with them. But the barbarians are not a normal civilization; they're just supposed to entertain and put the player in check during the expansion phase -they are not meant to be a real threat. there is a reason why I play this mod and not Rife and such. is this the direction that things are going?
also, is the fact that goblins are capable of transforming themselves into archers anywhere a fluke bug or something that was added?
finally, I also wanted to add that even with all the victory options enabled the AIs are even more aggressive (even more?). They start wars too early, civs fall too fast, I'm still to see a city being kept - they raze everything, literally everything. the balance is falling to one way too much.
I believe Xalien was complaining about this in previous patches. I thought that he was exaggerating before but that is what I'm seeing now.
There's more to the game than wars. A more aggressive AI does not necessarily mean a better AI (and they suck at defending cities now, btw, no joke) and early aggression only helps civilizations more apt to early warmongering - all the other ones are scratching their heads now.
I had to go back to the previous patch, the overall behavior is just too silly.
Now they consistently tend to group themselves together and can even create groups of 10 or more. I had five barb units making the two tile dance around my capital without attacking and eventually that group grew to 15 units and would still continue to grow until they had enough to crack my capital if I didn't attack myself. If I'm losing more units than I'm killing barbarians something is not right.
On the other hand sometimes barbarian units back off if they feel they are no match for my warriors (returning with a larger group) -they are not supposed to do that. I'm also seeing barbarian cities creating warriors every three turns...
I even saw a diety AI losing a city to barbarians - you know that something is wrong if you see that.
even just a group of four lizard men is a real threat early on. and how about If I spawn in the middle of two barbarian (trait) civilizations? Or if I want to play with raging barbarians?
If they are going to move like a normal civilization then I want to have diplomacy with them. But the barbarians are not a normal civilization; they're just supposed to entertain and put the player in check during the expansion phase -they are not meant to be a real threat. there is a reason why I play this mod and not Rife and such. is this the direction that things are going?
also, is the fact that goblins are capable of transforming themselves into archers anywhere a fluke bug or something that was added?
finally, I also wanted to add that even with all the victory options enabled the AIs are even more aggressive (even more?). They start wars too early, civs fall too fast, I'm still to see a city being kept - they raze everything, literally everything. the balance is falling to one way too much.
I believe Xalien was complaining about this in previous patches. I thought that he was exaggerating before but that is what I'm seeing now.
There's more to the game than wars. A more aggressive AI does not necessarily mean a better AI (and they suck at defending cities now, btw, no joke) and early aggression only helps civilizations more apt to early warmongering - all the other ones are scratching their heads now.
I had to go back to the previous patch, the overall behavior is just too silly.
This is part of base FFH. Goblins can upgrade to Archers when the Barbs get the Archery tech. It's probably just seen more often now since the goblins don't just automatically suicide into the nearest city.
It's very difficult to fix an issue that I can't replicate myself. Do you have a save game where I can see the AI razing every city?
Thanks for the report! I'll try to fix this for the next version.
Fafnir13
King
I'm seeing plenty of suicidal barbs, but then I'm also being more active in going against them. Perhaps the barbs are weighted against town suicides but perfectly happy to suicide against units outside of one?
I'm playing the 1.8 beta which does mention a new barb AI, so that also might be why.
Also: I really need to rush for Mines of Galdur now. AI's are just crazy for that wonder.
I'm playing the 1.8 beta which does mention a new barb AI, so that also might be why.
Also: I really need to rush for Mines of Galdur now. AI's are just crazy for that wonder.
I thought it was just on goblin forts not inside my borders?
Not as far as I can tell from looking at the XML. The only Prerequisites are that it be a Scorpion clan goblin and that they have the Archery tech.
Okay, I only had seen this before in goblin forts, never inside our borders. I guess it is from the fact that they don't suicide as much... Weird, and brutal.
Seriously, how often did one see a goblin transform into an archer before while coming after you? I saw five goblins transforming themselves on the same turn...
Regarding the razing, I don't know what to tell you since I changed patches. I just assumed that it would be the same for everyone. Maybe it is just on my computer... but it was unplayable.
ChrisAdams3997
Prince
Hmm, I didn't have that much trouble fending them off when testing...? In fact in testing Tholal and I found them too docile until I tweaked it a bit.
They also shouldn't be forming groups of 15 that's for sure. The code shouldn't even allow that, nor did I see anything of the sort in test games, so I'm at a bit of a loss as to how you've had such large groups. They shouldn't be getting above 5 or 6, and that should be very rare, most should group 2 or three, if any.
I'm going to run some more test games and take another look at the code and tune them back a bit I suppose, and see if I find any loopholes that could allow such large groups. I'll probably also limit grouping a bit more in the early game and allow them to get a bit more organized as it goes on (after civs are more built up).
They also shouldn't be forming groups of 15 that's for sure. The code shouldn't even allow that, nor did I see anything of the sort in test games, so I'm at a bit of a loss as to how you've had such large groups. They shouldn't be getting above 5 or 6, and that should be very rare, most should group 2 or three, if any.
I'm going to run some more test games and take another look at the code and tune them back a bit I suppose, and see if I find any loopholes that could allow such large groups. I'll probably also limit grouping a bit more in the early game and allow them to get a bit more organized as it goes on (after civs are more built up).
one thing I think would be interesting is to give the Barbarian team a base of +100% military production ... BUT!!! warriors can't be built till Mining/Bronzworking ... and Axemen can't be built till Smelting, and goblins can't be upgraded to archers till Bowyers. (archers being built restricted in similar fashion as well)
and perhaps double spawn rates of goblins from the fog.
Perhaps a bit too much, but might be interesting to at least test. Certainly I think it'd be fun for a game or two ... or for those giant maps with TONS of barbs.
and perhaps double spawn rates of goblins from the fog.
Perhaps a bit too much, but might be interesting to at least test. Certainly I think it'd be fun for a game or two ... or for those giant maps with TONS of barbs.
This is good.
About the groups: I play on diety and they kept increasing the numbers on the group near my capital bc i had a very big nr of units myself. That is: they were trying to gather a good enough group to crack me like a normal civ. Grouping is fine - but they must suicide, that's all.
Lizardmen should not group. That's insane for the first turns.
ChrisAdams3997
Prince
There is no code for the Barbarain AI grouping that looks at the size of your forces. Rather each barbarian unit is given an 'inherent' ability to group other barbs under them, up to 5 units (which should be quite rare). There shouldn't be any way for more barbarian units to group together than that, but I'll be keeping an eye out. I've looked at the code again and don't see any bad math.
I can think of a possible loophole where one group is following another group to merge with who in turn is also moving to merge to another group. But even if that is even a possibility to happen (and I'm not sure it is), it would be god-awfully rare by my guess. If I see it actually happening, I've got some options to stop it.
I agree about the lizardmen, I'll take care of that. Might allow it somewhat later in the game though (gotta keep it interesting
)
And the new code will keep groups smaller in the early game until there are a significant number of cities built.
Oh, and if anyone sees barbs doing something like grouping too big, or never wanting to attack a city, etc., post a save game for me to look at. That'll be the best way to possibly track down any odd behavior, as it's often difficult to replicate the same issue.
I can think of a possible loophole where one group is following another group to merge with who in turn is also moving to merge to another group. But even if that is even a possibility to happen (and I'm not sure it is), it would be god-awfully rare by my guess. If I see it actually happening, I've got some options to stop it.
I agree about the lizardmen, I'll take care of that. Might allow it somewhat later in the game though (gotta keep it interesting
)And the new code will keep groups smaller in the early game until there are a significant number of cities built.
Oh, and if anyone sees barbs doing something like grouping too big, or never wanting to attack a city, etc., post a save game for me to look at. That'll be the best way to possibly track down any odd behavior, as it's often difficult to replicate the same issue.
I garantee that happened. Maybe it was different groups on same tile? They arrived in different groups. I wish I had saved but was really suprised. Maybe a fluke influenced by my 24 units as well (early diety war with the hippus...)
Btw, is the production in barb cities augmented as well, or am I seeing things (a possibility...).?
Btw, is the production in barb cities augmented as well, or am I seeing things (a possibility...).?
