[MOD] More Naval AI

[Fafnir13]

Yes, and here it is. Loaded it up and went past turn 3 and they didn't die this time. Random seed is enabled.
I'd check around their territory to see what was up, but I don't want any spoilers.

Also: It's very nice to see the Luchiurp retrieving Barnaxus, although I saw them do something rather silly with him. Marched out alone to a lizard ruins at the edge of their territory and died attacking.

 

[Fikmeister]

Hi there.

I can't seem to access unit promotions in the Worldbuilder. I can change unit names and experience, but the promotions tab isn't there. Anybody else have this problem?

Using the freshly installed 1.8 beta2.

 

[Tholal]

I can't seem to access unit promotions in the Worldbuilder. I can change unit names and experience, but the promotions tab isn't there. Anybody else have this problem?

Yep. Looks like a bug. I'll try to figure that one out. Thanks for the report!

 

[Darkling]

I've been using this mod for some time now and it's great. Working though a game at the moment where I'm playing on a huge tectonics map, with 60% ocean and have an observations.

After I'd consolidated my self on my own small continent (alas poor sidar). Tasunke who was on the nearby continent DoW'd me. Looking at the power graph he had a large advantage over me. I was on the buildup for war myself and my current goal was to produce enough galleons to carry my SoD over the oceans all at once, (ideally a half dozen or so galleons and some frigates for defence). Tasunke on the other hand launched four or five separate invasions where he landed one boat load worth of troops in my lands each time. On the plus side looking at the galleys they did have two cargo promotions. Still, it was maybe five troops at a time (armed with bronze to my iron). He pillaged a few improvements, but that was the worst that I faced.

Interestingly, once I had the galleons to launch my invasion, (for some reason Tasunke had moved himself to the top of my hit list) I found his SoD in the first city of his that I targeted. If he'd been able to get the transports together to move it in one go then my life would have been much more interesting. I'd seen this in a previous version as well where the AI would drop individual boatloads of troops of, but no mass landings. I don't know if difficulty would effect this, I'm playing on emperor at the moment.

He did manage a good counter attack with another large stack of troops much later on after maybe half of his empire had fallen to me. Using area effect spells from his mages, which was annoying (but good annoying), but it was too late (iron chariots vs mithral vampires).

About half the AIs died in the early game (first several hundred turns, playing on marathon) and I was only guilty of one. Haven't finished the game yet, so not sure what happened to the others. I did notice that the sidar were, over-eager perhaps, to explore lairs. I think I got one on the continent that I was on. When I rushed them, fairly early on, they had two cities with not many defenders, (2 and 1). Although they did produce enough warriors for it to not be completely one sided. The two defenders at their capital grew to five fairly quickly, so perhaps they were just out looking at the scenery. I do wonder if the spawns from early exploration could be having to detrimental an effect. Shades seem to be one of the more common bad spawns or the random named badness.

Religion wise, it seemed that the world was dominated by the overlords (all running overcouncil!) with two holdouts (me being order, and Tasunke being runes). Once the overlords and runes were founded (and I think that the sheaim founded the Veil, but then lost the city to barbarians), they didn't go for the other religions. I picked up the others as after thoughts later on.

It also occurs to me that there should be some diplomatic repercussions to the world spells. Hannah cast raging sees at one poit, and I lost a couple of troops, workers and improvements. It annoyed me enough that she was going to be my first target. Later on I also cast the Calabrim world spell. The Ai's should not be happy to suddenly lose a couple of population from every city, and as I'm the only vampire civilization in the game it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to work out who's responsible.

 

[Tholal]

Yes, and here it is. Loaded it up and went past turn 3 and they didn't die this time.

Looks like the elves decided to settle their first city right next to a Ruins. My guess is that they got an unlucky early lizardman spawn that assaulted the city before they could build their first worker. Improving the AI choice of city sites is on my todo list.

I can't seem to access unit promotions in the Worldbuilder. I can change unit names and experience, but the promotions tab isn't there. Anybody else have this problem?

Found the problem. It will be fixed in the next release. If you want it fixed before that and are willing to edit some XML, add the following code to the end of the Civ4UnitAIInfos.xml

		<UnitAIInfo>
			<Type>UNITAI_LAIRGUARDIAN</Type>
			<Description>UNITAI_LAIRGUARDIAN</Description>
		</UnitAIInfo>

 

[Tholal]

Hey Darkling. Thanks for the feedback!

I'd seen this in a previous version as well where the AI would drop individual boatloads of troops of, but no mass landings.

I've noticed this as well. The AI isn't very good at coordinating a large scale naval assault. I'll see if I can't try out a few tweaks before the next release.

It also occurs to me that there should be some diplomatic repercussions to the world spells.

Interesting idea. I suspect it might actually cause more problems than its worth, but I'll make a note and keep it in mind for future enhancements.

 

[scutarii]

I dunno why but autoproductuion tab inside city panel is not working as intended - in pure autoproduction - production is set as "Great Person"by default. I was playing with ljofo and I always had manually to move citizens to cottages from "GP "

now that is interesting - I summoned basium and basium cites kept correct autoproduction on cottages/towns

Meanwhile - AI ljofo (ex me) - destroyed cottages and clearly preferred farms and mines. WTH? in short - there is a serious problem with ljofo AI. Atleast ljofo AI bloomed forest everywhere - that was good.

 

[Fafnir13]

AI don't like huts or something? Turn 321 and there's a hut about six squares away from the clan. Uploading the save for perusal, hut is by an active ranger.

On the subject of world spells, they need a bit more than diplo effects. They feel out of place to me, like an early idea that hasn't really kept pace with the mod. I'd love to see them taken out and replaced with a similar but weaker "built-in" effect for each civ.
But this mod mod isn't about gameplay changes, so that's all I'll say. I just play with no World Spells.
And no Acheron. Got too annoying with the addition of those special followers of his.

 

[Tasunke]

Well, the Clan worldspell certainly needs to be reworked. (perhaps all recruits are spawned on the caster's tile)

Also, I feel that perhaps Rantine could "persuade" Orthus to join the cause of the orcs, if they are both alive at the same time of course (and right next to each other) -> heck, maybe Rantine could even persuade regular orc barbarians to join the cause ... at perhaps a 30% chance spell tied to a non-removable promotion.


Other than those things though, I would recommend a considerable boost to the Sidar worldspell, Svartalphar worldspell, and Doviello worldspell.

Other than that though, I'd say the worldspells are more or less fine.

 

[Horatius]

Tholal, could you tell how to make the Hawks work like they used to?

Also, I played a game where I had 15 axes and six catapults next to the last Doviello city that was defended by four axes. But next to the same city and my stack they also had 12 axes - and they refused to defend the city. So I feel that this issue still continues.


Regarding the world spells, I feel that if the calabim world spell is supposed to trigger a diplomacy penatly then every world spell should get a penalty (a waste of time) - Why would the vampires get a penalty and not the elves that can get them an instantaneously and enormous tree army To capture every border city,etc?
The world spell is just a free shot at the opponent. Some are better than others, though, for sure.

Well, the Clan worldspell certainly needs to be reworked. (perhaps all recruits are spawned on the caster's tile)

Would not that be overpowered in large maps? Perhaps that idea with an 100% chance of converting a barbarian close to the caster's tile and that chance progressively diminishing with distance? Probably too hard to program?

Other than those things though, I would recommend a considerable boost to the Sidar worldspell, Svartalphar worldspell, and Doviello worldspell.

Maybe the Sidar worldspell should have a time limit like stasis, meaning that you could attack several times during the period without losing invisibility.

I think that the Svartalphar worldspell is fine against the AI but kind of useless in MP.

I think that the Wolfpack ability should get a boost but that's pretty much it, I think.

 

[Aline]

I would like to see a timer added to the Elohim worldspell like it exists for Stasis or the Amurite worldspell.

 

[Fafnir13]

Couple odd things. They most likely exist in main game, but would be happy to see them quashed.

Knights obsolete royal guards. That shouldn't be happening.
Capturing a Luchiurp settler gives a mud golem. Nice, but shouldn't work that way.

Ai related: what does the AI think of distance? Playing on Monarch difficulty (something I've tried only once or twice with little success) and had three Civs declare war on me simultaneously. Two were my neighbors, made perfect sense. The other was the Clan, about a continent away. Did eventually manage to get some impressive stacks in my area, but what a time waster. Especially given their close proximity to the elves who they eventually went to war with. Would have made much more sense to attack the elves and then merrily expand into the great void between us.
I'm also playing with aggressive AI. Not sure what that does to their decision making. Perhaps they are forced to declare war on someone and I was just too tempting?

 

[Tholal]

I dunno why but autoproductuion tab inside city panel is not working as intended - in pure autoproduction - production is set as "Great Person"by default. I was playing with ljofo and I always had manually to move citizens to cottages from "GP "

OK. I suspect I know what's causing this issue.

AI don't like huts or something? Turn 321 and there's a hut about six squares away from the clan. Uploading the save for perusal, hut is by an active ranger.

Turns out that they haven't removed the fog from that plot yet. That, and the Oasis two south are the only still-fogged spots for the clan on that island. Looks like they had a major war with the Calabim, so I guess they got distracted and never got around to exposing those two plots.

Tholal, could you tell how to make the Hawks work like they used to?

It's a DLL change. You can try setting the iAirUnitCap XML tag for ships to 1. I think that will let them act as carriers. Was an option I was considering when you brought up the issue with hawks but I haven't tested that it works.

Also, I played a game where I had 15 axes and six catapults next to the last Doviello city that was defended by four axes. But next to the same city and my stack they also had 12 axes - and they refused to defend the city. So I feel that this issue still continues.

Hmmm. OK.

I would like to see a timer added to the Elohim worldspell like it exists for Stasis or the Amurite worldspell.

That's probably doable. I'll add it to the list.

Knights obsolete royal guards.

Interesting. Should be an easy fix.

Capturing a Luchiurp settler gives a mud golem. Nice, but shouldn't work that way.

Makes sense to me. You get racial workers from other civs. Why not Mud Golems? A Settler unit represents the start of a whole community, amongst which there would be worker-types, some of whom choose/are coerced into working for you after the battle. In this case, it's a golem rather than living beings, because that's how the Luchiurp roll, but the effect is the same.

Ai related: what does the AI think of distance?

The AI does seem to declare long-range war too early.

I'm also playing with aggressive AI.

I would recommend against using this option at the moment. It mostly just forces the AI to over-extend its economy by building lots and lots of troops.

 

[Horatius]

Also: Loller Elves just died on turn 3. A new Record (for me)!

A curious coincidence - I saw the same exact thing happening recently. Save below.

Needless to say, I retired from the game since when another AI has double room to expand the game just becomes a silly grind.

Tholal, if you want to insist on your tweak, can't you at least make the AI not explore lairs until a certain turn or certain units?

I must say also that seeing AIs consistently start wars below turn 50 (that's what I'm seeing) with just warriors is tiring to see. Not only it restricts the game (war,war,war, even the Elohim are bloodthirsty) but if the attrition last for too long it just hurts them. I just had a game where I saw the Khazad with just warriors and thanes on turn 210 because of having started a war too early (they won though).

The barbs are working much better but they still tend to hesitate to attack when the odds are way far from being on their favor.

 

[Tholal]

A curious coincidence - I saw the same exact thing happening recently. Save below.

The elves have two spectres at their former capitol. The AI shouldnt be exploring lairs that early. Do you have an earlier save I can look at to figure out where they came from?

EDIT: I bet I know what's happening. It's not the new exploration code. It's the old AI that simply explores lairs when it happens to be on top of them. Guess I'll need to add a check or two in there.

 

[Fafnir13]

Makes sense to me. You get racial workers from other civs. Why not Mud Golems?

Would make more sense to me to see dwarven workers, but your explanation works well enough.

I would recommend against using this option at the moment. It mostly just forces the AI to over-extend its economy by building lots and lots of troops.

[/QUOTE]

Does it also increase the number of cities they raze? The clan and elves have been razing every city they capture. Or is that because they have too many units and the extra cost of the city makes them not want it?
Uplading save so you can see the general carnage on that end of things.

Also seeing an over reliance on religious units by the clan (and other AI's). They've got bronze working, but no a single axeman? SoK have dwarven, but the extra production cost never seems to justify it.
Same thing with the elves. They had a huge stack of archers and fawns a while back. Swordsmen instead of fawns would have worked wonders there. Perhaps neither side is building a training yard because aggressive AI is telling them to build units?

 

[Aline]

The Ai loves those religious units, even on not aggressive AI, especaly mass fawns tend to screw them over.

 

[Horatius]

It's a DLL change. You can try setting the iAirUnitCap XML tag for ships to 1. I think that will let them act as carriers. Was an option I was considering when you brought up the issue with hawks but I haven't tested that it works.

Forgive my complete programming noobness, but exactly in what file should I search for that tag?


- Also, I was kind of wondering if people are finding that the AI is now quite unfair doing trades with this new patch.

I'm consistently trading two resources for one, and it's not only that but the AI is canceling the trades quite often and then only renegotiates if I give them three resources for one. This happened even with civilizations that were pleased, with the same religion and the same alignment.
In technology trading the AI always get the better of the deals, but now I'm having a hard time getting at least half the beakers that I'm giving.


- Also, below is a save state where you can see that the barbarians just will not attack my double shock promoted warrior. Not Orc behavior.


- Finally, in the same game, the Sheaim got zombies at around turn 75 (what the...).
That sounds good for the AI, right? unfortunately for her I didn't have that much trouble conquering her with horses (well, she didn't have copper). She just didn't like defending her cities properly. Lure out, attack in.

But what I really wanted to say is that this was another game where most AIs just had to start early warrior wars once again. They only managed to tech something because of the deity bonuses.
I joined in the fun and just decided to play kind of like the AI. Two cities and scout spamming with mass pillaging to upgrade was all it took to win the game at turn 188.

I didn't tech anything simply because most AI's only had warriors.
The obvious point is: premature wars bad, teching good.

Check out the statistics of units killed. They speak for themselves. Where were those T2 units (note that the 9 archers and 10 axemen killed were just barbarians - they teched much better than Clan, which is kind of funny)?

Spoiler :

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This game also kind of reminded me why I rarely play Tasunke.

 

[Jusos2108]

I encountered a weird situation where an enemy blockade never disappeared. Not even after the blockading nation itself was destroyed.

Spoiler :

Anyways, good job with this modmod!

 

[BvBPL]

Are you using the most up-to-date version? This occurred w/ some fair regularity in previous versions, apparently because of privateers announcing their nationality while on blockade.