[MOD] Planet Roanoke, a/k/a all SMAC'ed up
- Thread starter Padmewan
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Bastian-Bux
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Actually I think there is nothing wrong with "food line first".
Isn't it fairly natural for a robinson to first look for food, then for shelter and other production tools, and last for a "female friday" to produce some, erm settlers?
Only problem is teaching the AI that Roanoke starts a tad earlier then vanilla Civ (where the very basic food part is already taken care of).
Isn't it fairly natural for a robinson to first look for food, then for shelter and other production tools, and last for a "female friday" to produce some, erm settlers?
Only problem is teaching the AI that Roanoke starts a tad earlier then vanilla Civ (where the very basic food part is already taken care of).
Logically, there is no problem with food first, the problem is as a game mechanism, it takes away some of the elements of choice in the game. Unless we did something like have 3-5 initial "food" techs (and a defense tech, I guess), what other choices would you make?
Hmmm... well, here are some proposals for these:
1. A tech that enables a base facility for +1 food
2. A tech that enables hothouses
3. A tech that enables aerators (to irrigate hothouses)
4. A tech that reveals "food" resources
5. Defense tech
The nice thing is these are all existing techs, just some switcheroo necessary...
Thoughts?
Hmmm... well, here are some proposals for these:
1. A tech that enables a base facility for +1 food
2. A tech that enables hothouses
3. A tech that enables aerators (to irrigate hothouses)
4. A tech that reveals "food" resources
5. Defense tech
The nice thing is these are all existing techs, just some switcheroo necessary...
Thoughts?
Well, I tried redoing the entire XML node for the Pulse Dampener from scratch and it seems to be stable so far... It was a 2-limit nt'l unit, that could have been the problem, or it was the attack/defense bonus vs. Pulse. I'll try adding one of those back in and seeing if that causes instability. Sheesh...
Bastian-Bux
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I'd say you'll definitely need a "defense" tech aside the food techs, but yeah, "food" first should work fine. Though I'd count air into that food problem as well.
How about this:
new colonies do have a serious health problem (big enough to endanger food production of even a size 1-3 colony) until you research some air related techs.
Look at it this way:
the ship crashes and breaks up. Life support is running out. The first and foremost thing needed is carbon dioxid to oxygen recycling (or an oxygen source), or everyone will suffocate. Next comes drinkable water and its recycling, third food. Last shelter vs. cold and such, so energy production.
I don't know how much of that you want to "have under the hood". Like: any crashed ship that didn't manage to bring up minimal oxygen production in a matter of hours, wouldn't reach "year zero".
So maybe think along this lines: which "minimal life support" aspect will run out first, and must be replaced first? This should be the first tech to be researched. Its nothing wrong if there is one and JUST one optimal path through the first techs. Remember, floor 3 is off limits to everyone who doesn't want to die a most horrible and painfull death
.
PS: you might even let teh first colony start with more then 1 pop ... but limit health so much that a dieoff to 1 is almost inevitable. You know, the "epic struggle to save at least part of the people".
How about this:
new colonies do have a serious health problem (big enough to endanger food production of even a size 1-3 colony) until you research some air related techs.
Look at it this way:
the ship crashes and breaks up. Life support is running out. The first and foremost thing needed is carbon dioxid to oxygen recycling (or an oxygen source), or everyone will suffocate. Next comes drinkable water and its recycling, third food. Last shelter vs. cold and such, so energy production.
I don't know how much of that you want to "have under the hood". Like: any crashed ship that didn't manage to bring up minimal oxygen production in a matter of hours, wouldn't reach "year zero".
So maybe think along this lines: which "minimal life support" aspect will run out first, and must be replaced first? This should be the first tech to be researched. Its nothing wrong if there is one and JUST one optimal path through the first techs. Remember, floor 3 is off limits to everyone who doesn't want to die a most horrible and painfull death
.PS: you might even let teh first colony start with more then 1 pop ... but limit health so much that a dieoff to 1 is almost inevitable. You know, the "epic struggle to save at least part of the people".
Bastian-Bux
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No chance. I'm in the middle of my thesis AND starting my own mod (yeah, I'm crazy I know).
Though wont stop me from throwing in an idea here and there.
Though wont stop me from throwing in an idea here and there
.Well they are certainly good ideas even if you can't "join" the team. (What is your thesis on?)
Some previous suggestions have also run along the lines of starting in dire straits, but I like framing problem in terms of limitations rather than time limits. I had thought about starting out with something like Pop 3 and watching your pop plummet... definitely possible, tho we'd also have to give the base a full granary or else the pop will be 1 by Turn 3 and the dieoff will merely be for show (tho a popup or two about the dieoff might give the player some added incentives?)
I will try reworking the beginning of the tech tree today and tomorrow to focus on food in the beginning and post ideas for feedback...
Some previous suggestions have also run along the lines of starting in dire straits, but I like framing problem in terms of limitations rather than time limits. I had thought about starting out with something like Pop 3 and watching your pop plummet... definitely possible, tho we'd also have to give the base a full granary or else the pop will be 1 by Turn 3 and the dieoff will merely be for show (tho a popup or two about the dieoff might give the player some added incentives?)
I will try reworking the beginning of the tech tree today and tomorrow to focus on food in the beginning and post ideas for feedback...
Bastian-Bux
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My thesis will probably be on single-parent fathers. Its not quite sure yet. You know the usual process over here is that you have a lot of work already prior to starting the real thesis, by trying to find out which kind of thesis will work out. At the moment I'm still digging through sources to find out if I#ll get enough sources to answer a scientific question.
Sounds weird to look for the answers prior to the finalised question? Well, in my part of social sciences its just to usual to have tons of sources on the first glance, but once you realy get into, you find... rubbish. Had this problem already once and don't have to get it another time.
Sounds weird to look for the answers prior to the finalised question? Well, in my part of social sciences its just to usual to have tons of sources on the first glance, but once you realy get into, you find... rubbish. Had this problem already once and don't have to get it another time.
After much thought, below is a first proposal for how this could work. I recognize that it seems very ambitious, but I actually don't think that it is ridiculously hard to program. How well it plays out is another matter, so much feedback encouraged at this early stage!!!
(Note: the formatting of all this is screwed up. For the original, more readable post, see here.)
Starting Assumptions
Without Lattice, Roanoke would have the same climate as Venus due to its proximity to the sun. Thus, the game of terraforming is a delicate one: go too far and the planet becomes a living (or dead) hell.
* Terrain = average temperature.
* Features = climatic conditions.
* Bonsues = well, bonuses
Once per turn, a function sweeps through each tile in the game and runs the following calculations. (Preferably this is done in C++ or else I can imagine Python bogging down significantly):
1. Calculate the "temperature" of that tile.
2. Based on the temperature, calculate the chance of the tile changing.
3. Determine if the terrain does, in fact, change. (This should provide some stability to terrain, I hope).
4. Determine whether this change invalidates any features. If so, destroy or change them. (E.g. change CO2 gas to CO2 ice).
5. If features are removed, remove any bonuses that depend on them. (Cows cannot survive without O2)
6. Determine if any random bonuses appear.
I will get to the crucial calculation of Step 1 in a bit, but before doing that, it might make sense to go over what the results of that calculation would be.
Terrain
Temperature Terrain
< 0 Very Cold
1-5 Cold
6-10 Terran I
11-15 Terran II
16+ Hellish
Features
Feature Terrain
Lattice All but Hellish
CO2 All but Very Cold
O2 All
Lattice is a super-efficient absorber of energy from the sun (but not necessarily from ambient atmosphere, don't ask me why, I just made it up). However, O2 is "poisonous" to Lattice. The O2 feature provides "fresh water," so a tile that is adjacent to O2 and considered "irrigated" has a certain chance of killing any Lattice on it.
Both CO2 and O2 are shorthand for that gas being "present." The bulk of the atmosphere would remain some kind of buffer like N2. "O2" implies that "CO2" (and water, methane, etc.) is present and therefore "counts" as a greenhouse gas (see below). Later on we might consider adding a "Forest" feature that provides the human benefits of O2 but without generating greenhouse gases.
BTW, do I recognize that it's silly to have atmospheric gas localized like this? Well, I did a very quick read in Wikipedia on atmospheric dispersion modeling and answered, "yes," but decided, "To hell with science, this is what will make the game fun." If anyone has better ideas, please pipe up!
Bonuses
Bonuses are pretty much as they are in the game, but tied more directly to their "sponsoring" features. E.g. lattice resources will only appear in lattice and "die" if the lattice is removed; corn, rice, and wheat will only appear in CO2 or O2 and die if they are removed; etc. Mineral bonuses (iron or whatever) are unaffected by these changes.
Some bonuses in turn affect the chance of a feature appearing. Here is a fairly intuitive progression in the game:
Terrain terraformed up to "Terran I." The CO2 Feature appears, which enables the player to build an open-air farm. The farm has a chance of generating a wheat/corn/rice bonus (small food bonus). The farm+bonus has a chance of turning the CO2 Feature into an O2 Feature. The O2 Feature enables the player to build a pasture, which has a chance of generating a cow/pig/sheep/whatever bonus (big food bonus). Alternatively, the O2 bonus enables the player to build a Habitat for people to live, which will have a much more balanced yield benefit (mixed food/production/commerce bonus).
I've thought least about this aspect, so I particularly want feedback on this proposal.
The Climate Calculation
The climate calculation starts with the assumption that all tiles receive 10 "points" per turn from the sun. (Later we can get fancy and (a) adjust for lattitude, if this doesn't screw players that start near the poles; or (b) make the sun a variable star, etc.). It then adjusts that amount by local conditions (features, active terraforming) and global conditions to produce an integer value for "temperature" that influences the terrain value of that tile.
Global Calculation
The global calculation adds up all the Lattice (and fibersea) and imputed CO2 on the planet and adjusts accordingly, as follows:
Lattice adjuster: Total Lattice+Fibersea count / Total tiles * (-10)
Greenhouse adjuster: (Total CO2 + Total O2 + Total city unhealthiness) / Total tiles * 20
example: Assume a 50x100 map (5,000 total tiles). 3,000 tiles are lattice or fibersea. The lattice adjuster is -6. There are about 200 CO2+O2 features, plus another 20 cities with 5 unhealthy faces. The Greenhouse adjuster is (200+100)/3000, or +1.
Local Calculation
The local calculation adjusts for features, improvements, and "culture" on or adjacent to the tile as follows:
Lattice: +5 if this tile contains Lattice. +1 for each horizontal/vertical tile that contains Lattice (so, maximum total of 4 - diagonals don't count to save computing power).
Terran food improvement: +1 if this tile contains a Hothouse or other improvement that generates Terran food. This presumes that a Terran player would want to terraform towards Terran conditions.
Culture: +1 if this tile is controlled by a player with lifeform "Terran." +2 if player is "Mutagen." -2 if player is "Roan." 0 otherwise.
Calculation Result
All the numbers are added up and compared with the terrain table above. If the terrain is now "out of sync" with the temperature, there is a % chance that the tile will change based on (difference x 20%). For example, if the terrain is Very Cold but the temperature is 7, there is a (7-5) * 20%, or 40%, chance that it will change to "Cold."
Example 1: Total Lattice Coverage
Starting value 10
Lattice: on tile -5
Lattice: 4 adjacent -4
Global effect -6
Total -5
Result: 100% Very Cold
Example 2: Some Adjacent Lattice
Starting value 10
Lattice: on tile 0
Lattice: 2 adjacent -2
Global effect -6
Total 2
Result: Very Cold
(60% chance of change if current value = Cold)
Example 3: Human Base Tile, unimproved
Starting value 10
Improvement: None 0
Cultural effect 1
Global effect -6
Total 5
Result: Cold
(100% chance of change if current value = Very Cold)
Example 4: Mutagen Base Tile, improved; global warming + removal of Lattice underway
Starting value 10
Improvement: Hothouse 1
Cultural effect 2
Global effect -4
Total 9
Result: Terran I
(80% chance of change if current value = Cold)
(Note: the formatting of all this is screwed up. For the original, more readable post, see here.)
Starting Assumptions
Without Lattice, Roanoke would have the same climate as Venus due to its proximity to the sun. Thus, the game of terraforming is a delicate one: go too far and the planet becomes a living (or dead) hell.
* Terrain = average temperature.
* Features = climatic conditions.
* Bonsues = well, bonuses
Once per turn, a function sweeps through each tile in the game and runs the following calculations. (Preferably this is done in C++ or else I can imagine Python bogging down significantly):
1. Calculate the "temperature" of that tile.
2. Based on the temperature, calculate the chance of the tile changing.
3. Determine if the terrain does, in fact, change. (This should provide some stability to terrain, I hope).
4. Determine whether this change invalidates any features. If so, destroy or change them. (E.g. change CO2 gas to CO2 ice).
5. If features are removed, remove any bonuses that depend on them. (Cows cannot survive without O2)
6. Determine if any random bonuses appear.
I will get to the crucial calculation of Step 1 in a bit, but before doing that, it might make sense to go over what the results of that calculation would be.
Terrain
Temperature Terrain
< 0 Very Cold
1-5 Cold
6-10 Terran I
11-15 Terran II
16+ Hellish
Features
Feature Terrain
Lattice All but Hellish
CO2 All but Very Cold
O2 All
Lattice is a super-efficient absorber of energy from the sun (but not necessarily from ambient atmosphere, don't ask me why, I just made it up). However, O2 is "poisonous" to Lattice. The O2 feature provides "fresh water," so a tile that is adjacent to O2 and considered "irrigated" has a certain chance of killing any Lattice on it.
Both CO2 and O2 are shorthand for that gas being "present." The bulk of the atmosphere would remain some kind of buffer like N2. "O2" implies that "CO2" (and water, methane, etc.) is present and therefore "counts" as a greenhouse gas (see below). Later on we might consider adding a "Forest" feature that provides the human benefits of O2 but without generating greenhouse gases.
BTW, do I recognize that it's silly to have atmospheric gas localized like this? Well, I did a very quick read in Wikipedia on atmospheric dispersion modeling and answered, "yes," but decided, "To hell with science, this is what will make the game fun." If anyone has better ideas, please pipe up!
Bonuses
Bonuses are pretty much as they are in the game, but tied more directly to their "sponsoring" features. E.g. lattice resources will only appear in lattice and "die" if the lattice is removed; corn, rice, and wheat will only appear in CO2 or O2 and die if they are removed; etc. Mineral bonuses (iron or whatever) are unaffected by these changes.
Some bonuses in turn affect the chance of a feature appearing. Here is a fairly intuitive progression in the game:
Terrain terraformed up to "Terran I." The CO2 Feature appears, which enables the player to build an open-air farm. The farm has a chance of generating a wheat/corn/rice bonus (small food bonus). The farm+bonus has a chance of turning the CO2 Feature into an O2 Feature. The O2 Feature enables the player to build a pasture, which has a chance of generating a cow/pig/sheep/whatever bonus (big food bonus). Alternatively, the O2 bonus enables the player to build a Habitat for people to live, which will have a much more balanced yield benefit (mixed food/production/commerce bonus).
I've thought least about this aspect, so I particularly want feedback on this proposal.
The Climate Calculation
The climate calculation starts with the assumption that all tiles receive 10 "points" per turn from the sun. (Later we can get fancy and (a) adjust for lattitude, if this doesn't screw players that start near the poles; or (b) make the sun a variable star, etc.). It then adjusts that amount by local conditions (features, active terraforming) and global conditions to produce an integer value for "temperature" that influences the terrain value of that tile.
Global Calculation
The global calculation adds up all the Lattice (and fibersea) and imputed CO2 on the planet and adjusts accordingly, as follows:
Lattice adjuster: Total Lattice+Fibersea count / Total tiles * (-10)
Greenhouse adjuster: (Total CO2 + Total O2 + Total city unhealthiness) / Total tiles * 20
example: Assume a 50x100 map (5,000 total tiles). 3,000 tiles are lattice or fibersea. The lattice adjuster is -6. There are about 200 CO2+O2 features, plus another 20 cities with 5 unhealthy faces. The Greenhouse adjuster is (200+100)/3000, or +1.
Local Calculation
The local calculation adjusts for features, improvements, and "culture" on or adjacent to the tile as follows:
Lattice: +5 if this tile contains Lattice. +1 for each horizontal/vertical tile that contains Lattice (so, maximum total of 4 - diagonals don't count to save computing power).
Terran food improvement: +1 if this tile contains a Hothouse or other improvement that generates Terran food. This presumes that a Terran player would want to terraform towards Terran conditions.
Culture: +1 if this tile is controlled by a player with lifeform "Terran." +2 if player is "Mutagen." -2 if player is "Roan." 0 otherwise.
Calculation Result
All the numbers are added up and compared with the terrain table above. If the terrain is now "out of sync" with the temperature, there is a % chance that the tile will change based on (difference x 20%). For example, if the terrain is Very Cold but the temperature is 7, there is a (7-5) * 20%, or 40%, chance that it will change to "Cold."
Example 1: Total Lattice Coverage
Starting value 10
Lattice: on tile -5
Lattice: 4 adjacent -4
Global effect -6
Total -5
Result: 100% Very Cold
Example 2: Some Adjacent Lattice
Starting value 10
Lattice: on tile 0
Lattice: 2 adjacent -2
Global effect -6
Total 2
Result: Very Cold
(60% chance of change if current value = Cold)
Example 3: Human Base Tile, unimproved
Starting value 10
Improvement: None 0
Cultural effect 1
Global effect -6
Total 5
Result: Cold
(100% chance of change if current value = Very Cold)
Example 4: Mutagen Base Tile, improved; global warming + removal of Lattice underway
Starting value 10
Improvement: Hothouse 1
Cultural effect 2
Global effect -4
Total 9
Result: Terran I
(80% chance of change if current value = Cold)
Bastian-Bux
King
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You mixed up a zero somewhere on your way
. 300/3000 isn't 1.Actually this should be multiplied by 20 to produce +2.Bastian-Bux said:You mixed up a zero somewhere on your way
I'm glad you followed that through... thoughts on whether it makes sense, would be fun, etc...?
Latest update finally gets rid of the CTD due to the Pulse Dampener. A big thanks for those of you who were putting up with this thing. The answer turns out to be the fact that the default unit for UNITCLASS_PULSE was set to "NONE." (This was so civs could build them, by default, but was unnecessary as their build cost was -1).
The CTD caused by turning on map grids is NOT fixed.
Please see our discussion forum for the latest news, to-do list, and discussions. Lots of great stuff going on in there, and lots of opportunities to get involved!
The CTD caused by turning on map grids is NOT fixed.
Please see our discussion forum for the latest news, to-do list, and discussions. Lots of great stuff going on in there, and lots of opportunities to get involved!
jenks
Prince
Again, nice one nailing the dampener bug for GOOD (touch wood 
) hopefully now that roadblock is gone we'll get more people involved in development 
) hopefully now that roadblock is gone we'll get more people involved in development 
Bastian-Bux
King
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Would it be possible / are irregular militias upgradeable? Would increase their usefullness tremendously.
I played one of my longest games yet - this build is pretty stable!
My approach to this game was based on my leader. I was a Scientist, so I decided I'd science the hell out of it. I got Cyneids as my lifeform, and tore all up and down the tree. It was my first look at some of the later stuff in the first era, and it all looked good.
I did run into a CTD near the end. I've attached the save-game, and here's how you replicate the crash:
1.) Select the worker NE of Tech Yield
2.) Have him build a hothouse on the tile he's standing on
3.) Hit enter
Should crash you.
Also, I had two modding questions for you, Pad. It looked like one of the units got a bonus against barbarians (maybe one of the borg units? Can't remember). I just ask because in the tooltip it had +100% vs. ???, and a barbarian slaying combat mod would be super-useful for one of my units in a mod I'm doing.
The second question is - how'd you excise the unused religion slots? Did you just delete their information from the appropriate xml files?
My approach to this game was based on my leader. I was a Scientist, so I decided I'd science the hell out of it. I got Cyneids as my lifeform, and tore all up and down the tree. It was my first look at some of the later stuff in the first era, and it all looked good.
I did run into a CTD near the end. I've attached the save-game, and here's how you replicate the crash:
1.) Select the worker NE of Tech Yield
2.) Have him build a hothouse on the tile he's standing on
3.) Hit enter
Should crash you.
Also, I had two modding questions for you, Pad. It looked like one of the units got a bonus against barbarians (maybe one of the borg units? Can't remember). I just ask because in the tooltip it had +100% vs. ???, and a barbarian slaying combat mod would be super-useful for one of my units in a mod I'm doing.
The second question is - how'd you excise the unused religion slots? Did you just delete their information from the appropriate xml files?
