Psycadelic_Magi
Hippie/Philosopher/Peanut
Huntable animals would probably be the main reason to move, and tribes would have to follow the migrating herds... A modification of the live animals mod would suit this
[MOD] Stone Ages: Alpha Revival
- Thread starter curtadams
- Start date
i dont understand what u mean.
sorry i am an dutch boy 15 yrs and not goo at english.
i can tell u only about the game no inner programming things or u need to tell me were to look cus i dont understand that stuff.
feel free to ask i will tell u wat i know but be a bit spicific
sorry i am an dutch boy 15 yrs and not goo at english.
i can tell u only about the game no inner programming things or u need to tell me were to look cus i dont understand that stuff.
feel free to ask i will tell u wat i know but be a bit spicific
Naokaukodem
Millenary King
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Psycadelic_Magi said:
Eusebius' Live Animal mod is for Warlords, I have plenty errors running it and it won't launch.
By the way, I would say that european animals are not really the kind that migrate as far as I know.
maxbjr
Warlord
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At the time we're talking about, the stone ages, hunters in Europe followed reindeer, wild oxen, most likely mamoths in north Russia/Urals/Sibeira, & wild horses in migration routes. Also there were those who followed fish patterns up and down the coasts & rivers.
Nomads aren't *necessary* to a stone age mod. There were many settled stone agers. People think of stone agers as nomadic because agriculturalists have driven them off the best land and only nomads are left. But in the jungle, they settle.
I don't have Warlords. How is the mobile camp accomplished? Can it be readily ported (XML and Python only) to Vanilla?
Now that I think about it, you could kludge it. Python in the game engine could add gold or science based on the existence of certain units. Units could have fake improvements that signal the python engine to create certain units. However, the game would probably have to be done as AI-less solitaire. I have no idea how to program the AI to do that.
I don't have Warlords. How is the mobile camp accomplished? Can it be readily ported (XML and Python only) to Vanilla?
Now that I think about it, you could kludge it. Python in the game engine could add gold or science based on the existence of certain units. Units could have fake improvements that signal the python engine to create certain units. However, the game would probably have to be done as AI-less solitaire. I have no idea how to program the AI to do that.
Psycadelic_Magi
Hippie/Philosopher/Peanut
The camp is just a unit that randomly creates military units when settled on a tile for a cartain length of time, and the probablity of which unit is affected by the type of tile
Bastian-Bux
King
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Curtadams, actually thats wrong. There is nothing like a "settled stone age tribe". There are more or less nomadic tribes, but during the stone age no tribe could afford to be completely non-nomadic. What you are talking about in the djungle are semi-nomadic forest-burning agricultists. And if we are talking about "the Stone Age", then we are talking of pre-agricultist times.
Basically all tribes are half nomadic during the stone age. The more the tribe depends on hunting, the more nomadic they are. If a tribe depends more on gathering, they can stay a bit longer in a region, till they have depleted the ressources. Its easier to overhunt an region then to gather all its plant ressources.
In Europe most tribes did have generation old routes though. Many of them would reuse the same camp each year, for severall months (especially during the winter).
Only with the neolithic revolution (11.000 BC till 5.500 BC, depending on region) it became possible to store food, to tame animals and to use agriculture. But thats already the end of the stone age, the beginning of the metal age.
If you know german I suggest: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steinzeit
Its a much better read then the english wikipedia entry.
Basically we can break it down to: the first few tribes where highly nomadic (using camps for weeks only). On their way through time they picked up more and more technologies that allowed them to use more and more plant materials and stay at places for longer times. With the neolithic revolution they could finaly afford to settle down completely, due to agriculture.
Basically all tribes are half nomadic during the stone age. The more the tribe depends on hunting, the more nomadic they are. If a tribe depends more on gathering, they can stay a bit longer in a region, till they have depleted the ressources. Its easier to overhunt an region then to gather all its plant ressources.
In Europe most tribes did have generation old routes though. Many of them would reuse the same camp each year, for severall months (especially during the winter).
Only with the neolithic revolution (11.000 BC till 5.500 BC, depending on region) it became possible to store food, to tame animals and to use agriculture. But thats already the end of the stone age, the beginning of the metal age.
If you know german I suggest: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steinzeit
Its a much better read then the english wikipedia entry.
Basically we can break it down to: the first few tribes where highly nomadic (using camps for weeks only). On their way through time they picked up more and more technologies that allowed them to use more and more plant materials and stay at places for longer times. With the neolithic revolution they could finaly afford to settle down completely, due to agriculture.
The camp in Warlords - Barbarian scenario
However, in Warlords - Barbarian scenario the camp works differently (better, and more suited to the purpose of this pre-agri mod, perhaps).
The camp is a normal moving unit -- needs protection from others -- from which you buy the units you wish (there is a nice screen to select them, which allows to provide them with promotions). No time is needed to build them, only gold.
In the Barbarian scenario gold is obtained by killing units from normal civs, and by destroying improvements and cities.
Maybe, you could implement this with food and/or shields, and requiring access to specific resources for various unit-types.
Psycadelic_Magi said:
However, in Warlords - Barbarian scenario the camp works differently (better, and more suited to the purpose of this pre-agri mod, perhaps).
The camp is a normal moving unit -- needs protection from others -- from which you buy the units you wish (there is a nice screen to select them, which allows to provide them with promotions). No time is needed to build them, only gold.
In the Barbarian scenario gold is obtained by killing units from normal civs, and by destroying improvements and cities.
Maybe, you could implement this with food and/or shields, and requiring access to specific resources for various unit-types.
There were indeed permanent settlements in the Stone Age. Here's a mesolithic one: http://www.english.lejre-center.dk/837.0.html Here's a Saharan cemetary, which basically requires a settlement: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/10/1021_051021_sahara_artifacts.html
The easiest way to implement camps would be just to have them automatically produce units. A popup screen isn't so easy.
Can somebody design at least a rough scheme for how a nomadic mod would work? I mean have some techs, some units, some effects, how they interact, and how the AI will cope with it. How should it integrate with "standard" mechanics? Nomads, then settle? Both systems coexisting? Nomad only?
Can somebody design at least a rough scheme for how a nomadic mod would work? I mean have some techs, some units, some effects, how they interact, and how the AI will cope with it. How should it integrate with "standard" mechanics? Nomads, then settle? Both systems coexisting? Nomad only?
Naokaukodem
Millenary King
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It all depends on if you want to put agriculture and animal husbandry in. The other way, units would be roughly the stone age ones (you have the choice), as well as the techs and everything else.
So I would say to introduce settles the time you introduces agriculture OR breeding. But this could be done by the player itself. For example, the player would always have the possibility to move his camp, but it would become totally useless with animal husbandery + agriculture.
I mean, the player would have to NEED to move his cities. I don't like the idea to add this feature only "for the style". One want to make him feel the necessity, one want him to feel like in those ages.
So he would have the possibility to move his cities: because of drying up ressources. I think they are more easy to do that migrating animals.
So the system would be composed of drying up ressources and moving cities. The cities would be movable at any time.
Ideally, for a role playing game, the player would have only one camp to move. But we are in "Civilization", so it would have to work the way several camps/cities could be created, and kept small. (around 5 people max) Use the happiness limit here. (a little more severe than normal Civ4)
The ressources would have to deplete quicker than their growth, at least. So that they would truly decrease with time when harvested. Now I don't know how many times quicker, maybe 2, maybe 3, depending on how we need in order to make the player move his city even if it is only 5 people size. (considering he could only change their squares and keep the same city location)
The moving city would act the same way a standard city, except that production would not be affected by buildings.
Buildings could be built, but they would remain in the same location (not move with the city) = creation of a small camp icon on the map.
At the scale of Civ, a city would move all the time. So maybe ressources would have to be made the way they deplete pretty fast (some turns in the best case).
Caves could be found while moving, giving a high defensive bonus against animals and hapiness bonuses. There would be a very low chance to find a cave in a plain or grassland, a much higher one to find a cave in a hill, and a high chance to find one near a mountain. Caves would be ideal locations to build buildings, that could be re-used for several passages.
Now, the camp reproduction. Of course, creating several camps would be useless for Science, as camps in those ages are not federalized. They are separated entities that evolves on their own. So why to create other camps? In a first time, it would be usefull to fight against the beasts all over the map. I'm even thinking by replacing usual units by those camps.
Camps would be usefull to give a Science boost as well. But any one of two meeting camps could decide to fight for the ressources/surviving. Ideally, a unit could not be separated from his camp. Maybe a system of equipment instead of bare units could be created. Maybe the cities/camps would be units with several lives (=number of citizens), losing any when a battle is lost.
The goal of the game would be:
-Surviving.
-reach the better ressources in order to progress in Science.
Victory Conditions:
- Science: Settle down for 20 turns. (with animal husbandry and agriculture + enough strenght to survive animal and other tribes)
- Production: Construction of the first culture achievement. (example: 1 Stonedge, or 20 obelisks over the land)
- Diplomatic: federate at least two cities. (first nation)
Etc... ??
Those are only random thoughts and examples, feel free to keep those you like.
So I would say to introduce settles the time you introduces agriculture OR breeding. But this could be done by the player itself. For example, the player would always have the possibility to move his camp, but it would become totally useless with animal husbandery + agriculture.
I mean, the player would have to NEED to move his cities. I don't like the idea to add this feature only "for the style". One want to make him feel the necessity, one want him to feel like in those ages.
So he would have the possibility to move his cities: because of drying up ressources. I think they are more easy to do that migrating animals.
So the system would be composed of drying up ressources and moving cities. The cities would be movable at any time.
Ideally, for a role playing game, the player would have only one camp to move. But we are in "Civilization", so it would have to work the way several camps/cities could be created, and kept small. (around 5 people max) Use the happiness limit here. (a little more severe than normal Civ4)
The ressources would have to deplete quicker than their growth, at least. So that they would truly decrease with time when harvested. Now I don't know how many times quicker, maybe 2, maybe 3, depending on how we need in order to make the player move his city even if it is only 5 people size. (considering he could only change their squares and keep the same city location)
The moving city would act the same way a standard city, except that production would not be affected by buildings.
Buildings could be built, but they would remain in the same location (not move with the city) = creation of a small camp icon on the map.
At the scale of Civ, a city would move all the time. So maybe ressources would have to be made the way they deplete pretty fast (some turns in the best case).
Caves could be found while moving, giving a high defensive bonus against animals and hapiness bonuses. There would be a very low chance to find a cave in a plain or grassland, a much higher one to find a cave in a hill, and a high chance to find one near a mountain. Caves would be ideal locations to build buildings, that could be re-used for several passages.
Now, the camp reproduction. Of course, creating several camps would be useless for Science, as camps in those ages are not federalized. They are separated entities that evolves on their own. So why to create other camps? In a first time, it would be usefull to fight against the beasts all over the map. I'm even thinking by replacing usual units by those camps.
Camps would be usefull to give a Science boost as well. But any one of two meeting camps could decide to fight for the ressources/surviving. Ideally, a unit could not be separated from his camp. Maybe a system of equipment instead of bare units could be created. Maybe the cities/camps would be units with several lives (=number of citizens), losing any when a battle is lost.
The goal of the game would be:
-Surviving.
-reach the better ressources in order to progress in Science.
Victory Conditions:
- Science: Settle down for 20 turns. (with animal husbandry and agriculture + enough strenght to survive animal and other tribes)
- Production: Construction of the first culture achievement. (example: 1 Stonedge, or 20 obelisks over the land)
- Diplomatic: federate at least two cities. (first nation)
Etc... ??
Those are only random thoughts and examples, feel free to keep those you like.
Mobile camps can't be mobile cities. They'll be units that create other units either automatically or as improvement-like actions. I don't know if it's possible to kludge the program so that cities can be temporarily "packed into" unit that can move and then convert back to cities, but I doubt there's any way for the AI to understand that. Ditto for a kludge where nearby fisher/hunters/whatever deliver resources to tribe units. For that drastic a remodel only solitaire play (no AI) is possible.
For a mobile Civ the only way I see to do it is with a bunch of workeresque units that can manufacture each other. So tribes would make gatherers and gatherers would make tribes. Military units could be non-reproducing units made by the workers or the various workeresque units could also be the military units (you see this in the hunters in 0.41). You would probably have to abandon upkeep for logistical reasons and adopt a system more like Rise of Nations where the more units you have, the more they cost to build.
For a mobile Civ the only way I see to do it is with a bunch of workeresque units that can manufacture each other. So tribes would make gatherers and gatherers would make tribes. Military units could be non-reproducing units made by the workers or the various workeresque units could also be the military units (you see this in the hunters in 0.41). You would probably have to abandon upkeep for logistical reasons and adopt a system more like Rise of Nations where the more units you have, the more they cost to build.
Naokaukodem
Millenary King
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How the land could be worked, then? I think is is too bad if the main characteristic of Civ (worked land) can't be used here. Why would one be supposed to move?
It would be cool that you can pack a city into a unit, but you would have to save the city characteristics somewhere, like the number of citizens, the production queue, the number of shields, the storaged food... (not the buildings however)
Or maybe you could give the settler some city abilities? (redesign the city around a unit)
Or give some movement point to a city?
It would be cool that you can pack a city into a unit, but you would have to save the city characteristics somewhere, like the number of citizens, the production queue, the number of shields, the storaged food... (not the buildings however)
Or maybe you could give the settler some city abilities? (redesign the city around a unit)
Or give some movement point to a city?
Land would be worked by a process like building upgrades. Unit sits there building the "upgrade" - when it's done the effect happens (gain to research or gold, another unit appears, whatever)
As I said, there's probably some way to hack the system to "store" a city somehow. No specific ideas, but there's probably some python niche you could stick it in. The very difficult part is making the AI move cities intelligently. There are no hooks I can use to add a new behavior to the AI - I can't use SDK. (Even if I could, AI modifications look scary)
If you want nomadic behavior it's easier to adapt something like goody huts, barb cities, resources, or animals into things that move around and the player will want to chase. Some of the options will have odd game effects - for example you could make plant resources as cities that gatherers woul have a super-bonus to attack. Would be odd for a hunter to be killed by a flax field, though.
As I said, there's probably some way to hack the system to "store" a city somehow. No specific ideas, but there's probably some python niche you could stick it in. The very difficult part is making the AI move cities intelligently. There are no hooks I can use to add a new behavior to the AI - I can't use SDK. (Even if I could, AI modifications look scary)
If you want nomadic behavior it's easier to adapt something like goody huts, barb cities, resources, or animals into things that move around and the player will want to chase. Some of the options will have odd game effects - for example you could make plant resources as cities that gatherers woul have a super-bonus to attack. Would be odd for a hunter to be killed by a flax field, though.
Naokaukodem
Millenary King
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What about to have some "obelisk of fate" that would act as goody huts?
"As the sun follows its path, you are approaching more yet the revolution" or something like that. (translate it in good english please.
)
The Gold would be renamed into "Food". Each unit would cost some Gold (Food) maintenance.
Various ressources would be on random areas on the map, under the form of Towns. (Cottages fully grown)
Now to harverst Gold (Food), just pillage the Ressources (Cottages) instantaneously.
Rename Science into Love.
Give the units the ability to build a Science (Love) upgrade.
Gameplay: you have to survive and find sources of abundance in order to make your people think in peace and love, so that, with the help of the sun, they will figure out the operation of the things.
Several races at start, from which the Neanderthals who have 2 movement point instead of 1.
"As the sun follows its path, you are approaching more yet the revolution" or something like that. (translate it in good english please.
)The Gold would be renamed into "Food". Each unit would cost some Gold (Food) maintenance.
Various ressources would be on random areas on the map, under the form of Towns. (Cottages fully grown)
Now to harverst Gold (Food), just pillage the Ressources (Cottages) instantaneously.
Rename Science into Love.
Give the units the ability to build a Science (Love) upgrade.
Gameplay: you have to survive and find sources of abundance in order to make your people think in peace and love, so that, with the help of the sun, they will figure out the operation of the things.
Several races at start, from which the Neanderthals who have 2 movement point instead of 1.
Naokaukodem
Millenary King
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I think I misunderstood myself about the Science upgrade, lol. Probably I meant Reproduction upgrade that would create another unit, as I decided to allow to move the Science (Love) slider as usual. (I wanted it locked first) Unless you prefer research to be enhanced by upgrades as well, or even only, by making those upgrades with a cost? This changes pretty nothing to my reasonning: I just want that a fair amount of food to represent abundance times thus creativity ones.
This way, another use of food could be offerings to gods, once the appropriated religious technology found, through unit upgrades, sign of a world interpretation, which is good for "Science". Those offerings would be more efficient than bare "research", but only doable on the top of a clear hill.
Random ideas:
Caves that would give say +50% defence against animals.
As to strategic ressources as flint, they could be both Ressources + empty Cities with no adjacent squares. Units weapon upgrades could be made freely only on these spots.
Jungles would be very abundant in ressources, but would prevent an efficient thinking, due to the lack of sun. So they would allow a lot of units, (maybe it would be wise to think about an auto-pillaging) but it would minimize the Science output. (like a Science Dark Age)
There could be chiefs. If another chief is created, that's another civ. (can one player control several civs?) Chiefs would give 100% combat bonus to the units in the same stack. Plus they would have the ability to bombard. Chiefs and their abilities would represent the fact that two separated groups can't live on the same Food (Gold) basis, and would truly been remain united. (Without a chief, the odd of surviving are weak)
This way, another use of food could be offerings to gods, once the appropriated religious technology found, through unit upgrades, sign of a world interpretation, which is good for "Science". Those offerings would be more efficient than bare "research", but only doable on the top of a clear hill.
Random ideas:
Caves that would give say +50% defence against animals.
As to strategic ressources as flint, they could be both Ressources + empty Cities with no adjacent squares. Units weapon upgrades could be made freely only on these spots.
Jungles would be very abundant in ressources, but would prevent an efficient thinking, due to the lack of sun. So they would allow a lot of units, (maybe it would be wise to think about an auto-pillaging) but it would minimize the Science output. (like a Science Dark Age)
There could be chiefs. If another chief is created, that's another civ. (can one player control several civs?) Chiefs would give 100% combat bonus to the units in the same stack. Plus they would have the ability to bombard. Chiefs and their abilities would represent the fact that two separated groups can't live on the same Food (Gold) basis, and would truly been remain united. (Without a chief, the odd of surviving are weak)
Naokaukodem
Millenary King
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mike6426 said:
But there is no reference to the sun, I want it to make a pun with "revolution": it is the revolution of the society, but also the revolution of the sun. This pun would make sense as looking at the first, the sun revolution, the second happened, the human revolution. Indeed, everything in the world evolves in circles (it appears, disappears and reappears), like the sun: the reproduction (of human, animal and plants) is one of them, which leads to agriculture, the revolution.
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