Modern ranged units (not modern siege)

[Akaoz]

Is crossbow the last "ranged" unit we get? I was kind of surprised when my crossbow could upgrade to rifles but lost their ranged attack ability.

I get that riflemen are now a melee unit, and that's fine. The problem is my imagination has to stretch quite a bit to deal with the fact that I keep crossbow men around to support rifles and later even infantry. They are a cheep and effective way of knocking down AI-cities. But it looks/feels idiotic.

So what would fill the same role for infantry that crossbows fill for swordmen? Only thing I can think of is mortars. So why aren't mortars in this game?

Mortars would be a good counter to longbowmen too

Seriously, has anybody made a mortar-mod yet?

 

[Ahriman]

In modern periods there are aircraft, which perform many of the same functions as ranged.

Also, rocket artillery doesn't require setup, so it functions like a ranged unit.

 

[Akaoz]

So the transition from Crossbow to Fighters/Rocket arty is just fine? I didn't realize riflemen were supported by crossbows during the the trench wars. Besides, I thought air power replaced artillery more then short ranged indirect fire.

 

[Scramble]

Aircraft, Rocket Artillery, 3 range Battleships, Paratroopers, Missiles.
All of these can arguably be compared to ranged units in some way or another.

There is a transitional period between the well developed diversity and tactics of the early game and the well developed diversity and tactics of the late game. This transitional period involves a sacrifice of some utility of the ancient era for the raw brute strength of the modern era. Without this transition, the first person to get a few riflemen would demolish everyone else.

 

[Lazy Knight]

I would say, crossbow for the swordsmen is replaced by the cannon for musketmen. At least that's what musketmen were supported from historically, and the chemistry tech is just one tier further than blackpowder.

 

[Akaoz]

I would say, crossbow for the swordsmen is replaced by the cannon for musketmen. At least that's what musketmen were supported from historically, and the chemistry tech is just one tier further than blackpowder.

Yes, but the Crossbowman is, in this game, in some ways better then the cannon. And a lot cheaper.

 

[ChaplainDMK]

In modern periods there are aircraft, which perform many of the same functions as ranged.

Also, rocket artillery doesn't require setup, so it functions like a ranged unit.

Yeah, but it seems that its bugged. I always have to set up my rocket artillery...
And thats annoying, I don't mind early gunpower units being considered melee (hell, 50 meters aint exactly long range) but Civil War era Rifles had a effective combat range of 300-400 meters. So I think that riflemen, infantry, mechenised infantry, tanks, modern armor and all those modern units should be ranged instead of melee.

 

[Qpla]

I found Anti-Tank guns not being ranged very strange. Perhaps I'll find a mod to change that some day.

 

[RagnorIronpants]

The range ability of archers doesn't represent how far they can shoot, but the fact they can barrage. Archers do not fire in straight lines - they form ranks and fire over the foot soldiers in front of them. In armies, the function of barrage was taken over by artillery once archers were obsolete. For instance, read this.

Muskets and rifles cannot do this because they firely directly, in a straight line. This means unlike archers they have to stand at the front to fire and stay at the front during a melee attack. Early muskets therefore needed pikemen to keep cavalry away and plug bayonets and swords to fight melee. This is true of riflemen (think of Napoleonic block formations) and infantry (the entire point of trenches being they prevented any direct line of sight, therefore making rifles difficult to use). I think this is fairly accurately represented in the game.

It would be better, of course, if archers could upgrade to either gunpowder units or seige weapons - it would make modernising the army a lot easier and be basically accurate. But I think it's basically correct to try and force you to build cannon for barrage - they were extremely important after all.

 

[Ykai]

I think the idea of a transition is ok. However, since all units have 10 HP and crossbowmen (or even worse: longbowmen) do damage to every unit in the game, it still takes only 4 archers to take out a Mech. Inf.

In my last game, I failed to keep my city states alive without going to war myself, simply because they could not deal with 6-7 longbowmen raining arrows on their Mech. Inf. and artillery. The longbowmen would do 1 or 2 damage, but with that many of them, it still kills units quickly.

So that's where I would put the problem. 10 HP for every unit is not right, especially if there is no difference between armored and unarmored units. Modern era units should do more damage, and have more hitpoints. It would balance out against other modern units, and it wouldn't make a difference when attacking much weaker units, because they die in 1 turn anyway. It just makes it harder for a stack of longbowmen to take down tanks.

Also: cities firing rockets still do only 2 or 3 damage to, say, pikemen. Aside from a visual upgrade, it would be nice if those rockets did a bit more damage as well.

 

[Johan de Witt]

The range ability of archers doesn't represent how far they can shoot, but the fact they can barrage. Archers do not fire in straight lines - they form ranks and fire over the foot soldiers in front of them.

While I agree with the rest of your post, I feel the need to point out that crossbows are not made for barrages either. Not that it changes a lot, I still think that it plays out well in Civ 5.

Since historicly cannon were invented before muskets, I would like to see crossbowmen upgraded to light cannon (mobile and doing less damage in siege) and trebuchets into Howitsers (need to set up and doing more damage against units).

The upgrade path would be:
Archer - Crossbow - Light Cannon - Field artillery - Rocket Artillery
Catapult - Trebuchet - Howitser - Artillery

That way, we still have two different types of artillery during the entire game.

 

[vusak]

It would be nice if all gunpowder units from rifle men onwards got an intrinsic promotion "return fire" that auto attacked any ranged non gunpowder non siege unit that attacks it. So musketmen still play as short range attackers, but after that the promotion represents the superior range of rifles and more modern firearms.

 

[mattpilot]

hmmm


Just had an awesome idea....


How about crossbowmen upgrade into mortar units, that become available with military science, that are weaker than cannons (that should require IRON), but also have the 'unique' ability of returning fire if range-attacked... or even better, if any unit adjacent to the mortar is ranged attacked and the enemy unit is within the range of the mortar (3 tiles). Counter-fire support baby!!!! Because of this ability, it shouldn't go obsolete. It should be relatively weak because of the range and its main benefit is to provide that 'counter-fire'. Would require to keep it grouped closely with an advancing army. If the AI is smart enough to handle this after seeing how poorly it manages great generals, i dunno ....

 

[Gaizokubanou]

Yeah, but it seems that its bugged. I always have to set up my rocket artillery...
And thats annoying, I don't mind early gunpower units being considered melee (hell, 50 meters aint exactly long range) but Civil War era Rifles had a effective combat range of 300-400 meters. So I think that riflemen, infantry, mechenised infantry, tanks, modern armor and all those modern units should be ranged instead of melee.

You have to setup your rocket artillery before firing because you upgraded them from regular artillery. I think it's a bug but whatever it is, your upgraded rocket artillery will carry on the "need setup before firing" feature from regular artillery.

To get a truly functional rocket artillery, you need to scratch build one.

 

[Akaoz]

I still say the mortar fills the same role in a modern army as a crossbow did in medieval ones. It's a short ranged indirect fire weapon.

 

[Etheric]

I still say the mortar fills the same role in a modern army as a crossbow did in medieval ones. It's a short ranged indirect fire weapon.

A crossbow is NOT an indirect fire weapon though, that is the whole point. The advantage of a crossbow is that is a heck of a lot easier to use than a bow as you can fire more or less straight as the bolts travel so fast, wheras with a bow you have to arc the arrow, which takes a lot more skill (and training).

The extra velocity means that it punched through armour as well.

 

[Akaoz]

I still say the mortar fills the same role in a modern army as a LONGBOW did in medieval ones. It's a short ranged indirect fire weapon.

Fixed. Happy now?

 

[teks]

They could add the following units. Grenadiers to compliment musketmen, Sharpshooters to compliment riflemen, and snipers to compliment infantry.

Crossbows out-ranged early muskets, but it gets ridiculous when rifles come around (they come too early imho). I beat a larger more advanced AI's riflemen with crossbows when outnumbered 3 to 1. It wasn't right (fun though)

 

[Lord Shadow]

Grenadiers have nothing to do with ranged combat: they throw hand grenades. And snipers (and earlier sharpshooters, which worked like scouts) operate in very small numbers. It'd be extremely odd to have entire sniper 'divisions' supporting a first line of riflemen.

In fact, it'd make my eyes burn.

Maybe crossbowmen would need to upgrade to light cannons, and those to mortar infantry/teams.

 

[nebux]

for me all the archer tree should be nerfed or nonexistent in civ 5.
maybe to improve the realism would do archers should only fire one tile when over water. so i don't get all that crap with an archer returning fire to my destroyer. GG good balance firaxis
a longbow fire like an artillery. what? when? how?