Late game siege rework discussion

[Arthur Jama]

PD's Change the Field Gun Unit's Art proposal got me thinking about how the current field gun spans over the industrial and the modern era breaking the tech tree sequence as well as having us playing with either early howitzers or fighting WWI with napoleonic field guns.

First, let's take a look at the siege tiers unlock timing:

Catapult - Early Classical
Trebuchet - Early Medieval
Cannon - Early Renaissance
Field Gun - Early Industrial
Artillery - Late Modern
Rocket Artillery - Early Information

The issue here is that we don't get an atomic era (WWII/cold war) siege unit. Siege, more specifically artillery, had a much more important role in the batteflied during the industrial and modern era which I feel is not very well represented in game.

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So here's what I suggest:

• Field Gun
  • Model replaced with EE's civil war field gun as proposed by PD / rifled field gun as proposed by rekk
  • Unlock tech: Rifling (Early industrial)
  • Cost: 900
    
  • RCS: 40 38 2 To compensate the lost indirect fire malus
  • CS: 17
  • Air Strike Defense: 1
  • Requires Iron
  • Loses Terrain Difficulties promo (half movement in enemy territory) This represents the higher mobility these siege weapons had compared to earliers tiers, this also means that it can move and attack in the same turn like ranged units
  • Loses Indirect Fire promo (can attack over obstacles; -10% ) Napoleonic and civil war era field guns were incapable of effective indirect fire

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• Howitzer - New Tier
  • Uses current field gun model or even the French 155mm Heavy Artillery from snafusmith's artillery pack as suggested by rekk
  • Unlock tech: Replaceable Parts (Early Modern)
  • Cost: 1100
  • RCS: 532 Effectively 48 due to indirect fire malus
  • CS: 30 Howitzers often had protective plates and could better hold their positions
  • Air Strike Defense: 2
  • Requires Iron
  • No Terrain Difficulties promo (half movement in enemy territory) This means that it can move and attack in the same turn like ranged units
  • Indirect Fire promo (can attack over obstacles; -10% )
  • Has all other siege promos

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• Artillery
  • Uses current artillery model
  • Unlock tech: Atomic Theory (Early Atomic)
  • Cost: 1300 1800
  • RCS: 50 62 3 Effectively 56 due to indirect fire malus
  • CS: 27 33
  • Air Strike Defense: 3
  • Requires Iron
  • Loses Terrain Difficulties promo (half movement in enemy territory) This means that it can move and attack in the same turn like ranged units
  • Indirect Fire promo (can attack over obstacles; -10% )

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3/4 UC UU Changes:

Spoiler :

• Krupp Gun (Germany) - Replaces Artillery Howitzer
  • Unlock tech: Repleaceable Parts (Early Modern)
  • Cost: 1300 1100
  • RCS: 55 573 2 Effectively 52 due to indirect fire malus
  • CS: 27 31
  • Air Strike Defense: 0 3 This might currently be an oversight
  • Requires Iron
  • Loses Terrain Difficulties promo (half movement in enemy territory) This means that it can move and attack in the same turn like ranged units
  • Indirect Fire promo (can attack over obstacles; -10% )

• Licorne (Russia)- Replaces Field Gun
  • Unlock tech: Metallurgy (Late Renaissance)
  • Cost: 700
  • RCS: 392 Effectively a buff compared to normal field gun
  • CS: 17
  • Air Strike Defense: 0 1 This might currently be an oversight
  • Requires Iron
  • No Terrain Difficulties promo (half movement in enemy territory) This means that it can move and attack in the same turn like ranged units
  • Loses Indirect Fire promo (can attack over obstacles; -10%)

• Seir Morb (Siam) - Replaces Field Gun Howitzer More in line with the Franco-Siamese war of 1893
  • Unlock tech: Rifling Replaceable Parts (Early Modern)
  • Cost: 900 1100
  • RCS: 40 552 Effectively 50 due to indirect fire malus
  • CS: 19 30
  • Air Strike Defense: 0 2 This might currently be an oversight
  • Requires Iron
  • No Terrain Difficulties promo (half movement in enemy territory) This means that it can move and attack in the same turn like ranged units
  • Indirect Fire promo (can attack over obstacles; -10% )
  • I would consider changing this UU to elephant-mounted artillery, which would essentially be an anti-unit field gun with double movement in jungle/forest.

Please let me know your thoughts about these changes.

Notes:

• costs adjusted for standard game speed
• Buffed up proposed siege RCS to better match contemporary unit CS and to smoothen the power curve towards information era siege
• I will also propose to move Bazookas from mobile tactics (early information) to radar (late atomic) as bazookas were invented in 1942 so they have no business in information era

 

[azum4roll]

So why does Artillery (2700) cost more than Rocket Artillery (2250)?
Oh wait, you're using Epic costs.

 

[Rekk]

Your Howitzer model/portrait is wrong. That's a WW1-era field gun that is incapable of indirect fire (and was mainly used as an anti-personnel piece). If you want a howitzer, I would suggest incorporating the French 155mm Howitzer from snafusmith's artillery pack (named Heavy Artillery). I don't know where you would get the portrait from.

The Artillery's model is based on the M2 (redesignated M101) 105mm howitzer, used extensively by U.S. and later NATO forces from 1941 up until the 1970s.

 

[pineappledan]

Personally, I like the metagame that is formed around range 3 artillery with their big power spike in late modern. I don't think that's worth giving up just because some slightly outdated equipment models "look weird" for 1 tech level if you didn't prioritize that tech.

You still have full plate mail knights running around until late renaissance, or even into industrial if you avoided metallurgy. How is this any different?

 

[FinMc]

Personally, I like the metagame that is formed around range 3 artillery with their big power spike in late modern. I don't think that's worth giving up just because some slightly outdated equipment models "look weird" for 1 tech level if you didn't prioritize that tech.

You still have full plate mail knights running around until late renaissance. How is this any different?

I agree.

Gameplay design should absolutely trump aesthetic concerns, even if those are mildly annoying.

Also if we're fixing aesthetic concerns the fact that the tech tree rapidly outpaces the date (heavier than air flight in the 1700s) is the worst offender.

 

[Arthur Jama]

Your Howitzer model/portrait is wrong. That's a WW1-era field gun that is incapable of indirect fire (and was mainly used as an anti-personnel piece). If you want a howitzer, I would suggest incorporating the French 155mm Howitzer from snafusmith's artillery pack (named Heavy Artillery). I don't know where you would get the portrait from.

The Artillery's model is based on the M2 (redesignated M101) 105mm howitzer, used extensively by U.S. and later NATO forces from 1941 up until the 1970s.

The French 155 mm is a great suggestion, thanks!

Yes, the current artillery model does fit better into the atomic era. I'm still unsure to use the name howitzer because it has been used from early modern to present day to describe different types of artillery more often associated with long range angled fire. Maybe we can rename the modern era siege unit to "artillery" and the atomic era unit to "howitzer", I'm open to suggestions.

 

[Arthur Jama]

Personally, I like the metagame that is formed around range 3 artillery with their big power spike in late modern. I don't think that's worth giving up just because some slightly outdated equipment models "look weird" for 1 tech level if you didn't prioritize that tech.

You still have full plate mail knights running around until late renaissance, or even into industrial if you avoided metallurgy. How is this any different?

I don't think there is something necessarily wrong with the current gameplay but I do think it can be improved by smoothing out the power curve of siege units.

Mounted units follow that pattern, skipping two eras:

Horseman - Late Ancient
Knight - Early Medieval
Lancer - Late Renaissance
Landship - Early Modern

They do not feel obsolete at any point as they are usually a power spike in CS relative to their era and their high mobility helps break the enemy flanks. Siege, more specifically artillery, had a much more important role in the batteflied during the industrial and modern era which I feel is not very well represented in game.

 

[Arthur Jama]

Also if we're fixing aesthetic concerns the fact that the tech tree rapidly outpaces the date (heavier than air flight in the 1700s) is the worst offender.

Yeah, this one I suspect is a lot harder to fix. Some games I reach information era by 1960's, some games I am stuck at modern by the same date.