Mohammed and Makkah

R

Rod

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Joined
Sep 22, 2004
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There is something that is bothering me not from a gameplay perspective, but from a historical perspective.

The first Caliphate of Arabia was not starting when somebody founded Makkah, but when Muhammed conquered Makkah.

So I suggest following. Make Makkah an independent city in 600 AD start.
Make it islamic holy city.

Start the Arabs in 620. Give them the same starting units , but one settler less and one Great Prophet.

Start them 1 tile ahead of makkah, so that they can NOT found a city instantly (only one tile next to a city and thanks to the desert the settler should not be able to move and found as well.)

Make a test run to see whether the AI understands that they should conquer Makkah (replay the hrija) turn the pagan cult site into a temple to honor Allah (found the shrine) and not found their capital elsewhere.
 
Sounds a little drastic for such a minor point. If we were completely historically accurate then hardly any cities would be "founded", because almost all major cities in the old world grew out of smaller preexisting settlements dating from prehistory. I think these are little inaccuracies we just have to live with.
 
I kinda like Rod's idea. Except I don't think Arabia should have a great prophet as well as the pre-founded Islamic holy city. They would be able to conquer Mecca and build the shrine. That may be a good idea, but it may also give them an unfair advantage. How about having the independent Mecca as above, but not have it with the pre-founded Islamic holy city. Give Arabia a great prophet when they spawn, and when they conquer Mecca, they can discover Islam and found the holy city with the great prophet. That might be more historically accurate, since Muhammad founded Islam.
 
Yes, there isn't one capital that is pre-founded (unless the AI founded it) except for really few cities in the 3000 BC start (for european civs). This lets the players found the cities they want and not force them to stick with the historical capital.
 
That's a good point, BurnEmDown. But the player does have the option of not conquering Mecca and instead founding the capitol city elsewhere, just as they currently have the option of not founding Mecca as the capitol.
 
I agree with Úmarth. Paris, London, Beijing, Moscow, etc. were not founded by their civ. That would be remarkable in most cases - a civilisation existing before its own capital city! What we have works.
 
Paris, London, Beijing, Moscow, etc. were not founded by their civ.
Click to expand...

Can you elaborate on Beijing and Moscow? Do you mean that the time of their founding is wrong?

Agree with Úmarth, though.
 
^I don't know about Beijing, but there was a prehistoric settlement on the Moscow site.
 
Well Paris and London certainly did exist long before their respective civilizations were "created".
 
Lone Wolf said:
Can you elaborate on Beijing and Moscow? Do you mean that the time of their founding is wrong?

Agree with Úmarth, though.
Click to expand...

Sure. Beijing has been a city long before it was a capital of any civilisation ruling all of China. Moscow pre-dates the Grand Duchy of Moscow (I think it was during the Kievan Rus ascendancy?). Of course in both cases the culture itself was in place, unlike Paris and London - but they were different states.
 
I don't know, this sort of goes hand in hand with something I have been noticing. Mostly that, since you can not depend on the AI to switch capital cities, the capitals for some of the starting civilizations are wrong. Mainly I am referring to China and India. Just as Panopticon pointed out Beijing was not the capital of the Yellow River civilization, it was Yangcheng. While the placement in this case does not matter, since the city of Beijing easily encompasses the area of Yangcheng, it would be nice for a name change. This is more apparent when looking at India. The scripted capital is Dilli, where the AI settles. However since India spawns in 3000 B.C.E., which is the time of the Indus Valley Civilization, the capital should be Harappa. Harappa's location is roughly one square north of the marble. The city this location is currently is Takshashila. Also, just to point out, the Xia dynasty of China, the first dynasty, did not begin until roughly 2100 B.C.E. Babylonia as well did not start at 3000 B.C.E. Babylonia became an empire formed under Hammurabi in roughly 1700 B.C.E. However, I realize the naming of cities creates issues since you have to decide whether the city should have its ancient name or modern name. This is the same with capitals, ancient capitals or modern day capitals. Either way, I just thought I should mention it.
 
^Don't Leningrad and Stalingrad get automatically renamed? I thought they did. If so, it should be possible to rename Beijing.
 
Rod said:
There is something that is bothering me not from a gameplay perspective, but from a historical perspective.

The first Caliphate of Arabia was not starting when somebody founded Makkah, but when Muhammed conquered Makkah.

So I suggest following. Make Makkah an independent city in 600 AD start.
Make it islamic holy city.

Start the Arabs in 620. Give them the same starting units , but one settler less and one Great Prophet.

Start them 1 tile ahead of makkah, so that they can NOT found a city instantly (only one tile next to a city and thanks to the desert the settler should not be able to move and found as well.)

Make a test run to see whether the AI understands that they should conquer Makkah (replay the hrija) turn the pagan cult site into a temple to honor Allah (found the shrine) and not found their capital elsewhere.
Click to expand...

If you're going to be that precise, then Muhammad should start with (founding/conquering) Medina, 1 tile East + 1 tile North of Makkah), as that was his real starting point. (Makkah can stay as islamic Holy City.) But is it worth the change?
 
Zagoroth said:
I don't know, this sort of goes hand in hand with something I have been noticing. Mostly that, since you can not depend on the AI to switch capital cities, the capitals for some of the starting civilizations are wrong. Mainly I am referring to China and India. Just as Panopticon pointed out Beijing was not the capital of the Yellow River civilization, it was Yangcheng. While the placement in this case does not matter, since the city of Beijing easily encompasses the area of Yangcheng, it would be nice for a name change. This is more apparent when looking at India. The scripted capital is Dilli, where the AI settles. However since India spawns in 3000 B.C.E., which is the time of the Indus Valley Civilization, the capital should be Harappa. Harappa's location is roughly one square north of the marble. The city this location is currently is Takshashila. Also, just to point out, the Xia dynasty of China, the first dynasty, did not begin until roughly 2100 B.C.E. Babylonia as well did not start at 3000 B.C.E. Babylonia became an empire formed under Hammurabi in roughly 1700 B.C.E. However, I realize the naming of cities creates issues since you have to decide whether the city should have its ancient name or modern name. This is the same with capitals, ancient capitals or modern day capitals. Either way, I just thought I should mention it.
Click to expand...
As apenpaap mentioned, I'm sure it's possible to make it so a city is renamed after a certain date.
And if you look in Panopticon's signature, the Real Capitals change could be what you're looking for?
 
I guess that is sort of what I am getting at. But it would be a combination of changing starting cities of India and China, those are the two that the capitals are glaringly wrong for the time period, and Panopticons mod. However I would never modify the starting location of settlers since then I could not exactly participate in challenge threads. However if Rhye ever decides to change their starting locations and names... The location of Beijing is fine, as it is roughly where Yangcheng was, but Dilli is rather far from Harappa, and it is not such a bad city if you are going after the UHV.
 
Panopticon said:
Sure. Beijing has been a city long before it was a capital of any civilisation ruling all of China. Moscow pre-dates the Grand Duchy of Moscow (I think it was during the Kievan Rus ascendancy?). Of course in both cases the culture itself was in place, unlike Paris and London - but they were different states.
Click to expand...

In our case though (RFC), we talk more of civilizations (cultures) than states. Otherwise the birthdate of pretty much any medieval european state except the Vikings would be wrong.
 
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