Monarch frustrations.

[fugazi]

First off, AAARGH! Good, that's out of the way.

I'm a civ2 veteran and ever since I've gotten this game, I had to keep adjusting myself to stay away from the gaming pattern I'd follow with civ2. This I've done pretty succesfully but nowadays, I keep getting annihlated on monarch.

I play most leaders and usually pick one at random but this is usually to no avail. So what's the problem? I usually get overwhelmed by the early barbarians and if it's not that, it's by neighbouring civs who simply take all the land and choke me to death. In the games that I do somehow manage to overcome the barbarians and one or two neighbouring civs, I usually start running behind with techs.

My question to all of you is - how do you start and what resources do you prioritise straight from the start? I've got the feeling hooking up bronze to the capital is a must unless you want to go for a chariot defense and even that only becomes a possibility after having researched animal husbandry.

So far it seems that playing a creative civ is the easiest way to go but I don't want to rely on civ traits to be able to beat a difficulty level.

Any starting tips, etc that you could share? If you got any questions regarding my playstyle, just ask and I'll try to answer them as good as I can.

 

[Breunor]

Fugazi,

I'm at the state I usually win on Monarch, everyything random, but its still hard. Civ is a challenging game, that's why I love it!

I think you have a key point -- getting bronze or horses is really a big benefit. I think bronze is best dealing with enemy civilizations, while horses/chariots are the best for barbarians (where speed may be more important then strength.)

I think as people move up the difficulty level, getting these military techs becomes even more important. Bronze working ALSO gives the ability to chop forests, which makes it a key tech anyway.

I've started to research archery a little earlier than I used to, especially if I'm Protective. Archers can handle most of the early game stuff. On some maps, though, archery is 'wasted' as you are on the offenisve and barbarians aren't such a big deal.

Remember that animals won't go in your cultural borders.

I think the early techs are 'obvious'' which order you get is a function of your map and position. You want to work bonus resources as quickly as possible. I usually build a worker first to work key bonus resources. If your first city is coastal, and you have a fish resource, consider getting fishing and getting a work boat.

Agriculture is very useful. If you see cows or pigs, animal husbandry is good and you get to see if you have horses for chariots. Getting mining and bronze working should be high priorities.

At this point, you likely have a second military unit and maybe your second settler. You now settle a site that has access to bronze or horses. If barbarian activity is high, you may want to get archery early.

When you have a second city, try to get a second worker and build a road. You need the wheel, which you also get right away if you find horses so you can build chariots. Those roads are real helpful in defending; the more aggressive your neighbors and the barbarians, the sooner they should be prioritzed.

Finally, squeeze in mysticism as soon as you can, you will want to either build Stonehedge or get a monument in new cities to expand your culture. If you are creative, this can be delayed to last of the basic techs.

If, however, you start with mysticism, you may want to try to get a religion as the first tech (polytheism, for instance). On monarch with a normal sized map, you have a good chance especially if you start on a river and get the extra commerce.

So, the fast answer is that CIV IV is a rich, interesting game and there are a lot of ways to start.

Despite the critical advantage of cotteges, I tend to get pottery after the other basics if I have a lot of bonus resources since getting them worked is my highest priority.

For me, a common start may be agriculture, mining, bronze working, the wheel, mysticism, animal husbandry.

On a tough map, I may go agriculture, hunting, archery.

Anyway, I hope I helped more than confuse you!

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[fugazi]

I think my main problem is that I want to expand too much without taking the time to build up a proper military. The fact that I can play monarch games without barbarians way easier should be telling you enough.

I'm going to give it another try now and post a short report on my game soon. Perhaps with the knowledge and opinions of others can I improve 'my game'

The Super Thing

Standard Continents - Temperate - Medium Sea Level - Monarch - Epic.

Ah! The random machine blessed me with Ramesses II and blessed me with a-okay starting spot.

Lovely. I'm going to play a few turns and post the result here and see what I've done wrong and done right

 

[Leifmk]

Decent starting position to be sure. Your capital will have enormous potential for food and population growth, but be lacking in hammers; a born science city. At least there seem to be hills nearby for your next cities. Mind posting the 4000BC save?

 

[HiroHito]

send a warrior to scout and capture a worker asap, usually the AI cant fight you that early and will settle for peace shortly after.

That way your city can grow unhindered, and you can more or less time your improvement techs (farming etc) so you dont waste time and grab an early religion.

 

[fugazi]

That's the one.

I'm going to play some tomorrow morning and post what happened after. Sadly I got interrupted tonight, my excuses.

With that marble and being industrous, grabbing the oracle and a few other marble based wonders is a must.

 

[Leifmk]

send a warrior to scout and capture a worker asap, usually the AI cant fight you that early and will settle for peace shortly after.

Depends a bit on the leader's personality, I find that some are much slower to forgive than others. And on Monarch the other guys start with free archers, so getting in a really early war that lasts for any amount of time is a pain in the butt unless you're playing the Incas.

 

[Killroyan]

You call cows, wheat, marble, 2 sea food and a flood plain decent????? What does it take to make you happy?

 

[HiroHito]

Depends a bit on the leader's personality, I find that some are much slower to forgive than others. And on Monarch the other guys start with free archers, so getting in a really early war that lasts for any amount of time is a pain in the butt unless you're playing the Incas.

you just want the worker, forget about any extra archers he may have they wont budge unless you come really close and you should be already en route to your capital with your prized slave hehe.

 

[Leifmk]

you just want the worker, forget about any extra archers he may have they wont budge unless you come really close and you should be already en route to your capital with your prized slave hehe.

That assumes he actually settles for peace after a while and doesn't spend the next 100 turns building more archers and sending them to mess you up when you should be expanding your empire (and thereby stunting both your civilizations' growth while the others pull ahead). Because while most AIs will cool down and agree to a peace as soon as they're done "refusing to talk", there are some who can't be relied on to do that (Tokugawa comes to mind).

Anyway, this is a continents game which means you'll need some early expansion so your rivals don't grab all the sweet spots. Use the warrior to explore while you're working to get one or two food resources on line (fishing boats on that seafood, and/or a farm on the wheat (if you can steal a worker quickly), then spam a couple of settlers and claim the best spots you can. Make a choice between going for an early religion or prioritizing Bronze Working.

 

[Leifmk]

You call cows, wheat, marble, 2 sea food and a flood plain decent????? What does it take to make you happy?

One Bismarck start I had once where I had 8 specials including two seafood tiles and three gems. That was "happy".

 

[Killroyan]

OMG you are one spoiled kid I am normally happy when I start with 3 resources. Everything from 5 or more (especially with stone/marble and industrious) is a GREAT start.

One thing I have learned at Monarch is to priorize your army a lot more so your second or third city should at least get 1 strategic resource such as bronze or horses. Make sure you research the necessary techs for that first. Bring on the game as I am still struggling with Monarch too (win percentage is about 40&#37.

 

[Leifmk]

OMG you are one spoiled kid I am normally happy when I start with 3 resources. Everything from 5 or more (especially with stone/marble and industrious) is a GREAT start.

Well, so am I, really. That old 3-gems start was just an absurd case of good luck. This one is very good also. However, the game's apparent generosity with resources is also an indication that this may be a somewhat crowded start. I would take it as a cue to prioritize territorial expansion; you may have to race to get two more good city sites before the AIs take them all. (The final "fortunately" here is that if there are several AI civs nearby then at least the barbarian threat may be negligible.)

One thing I have learned at Monarch is to priorize your army a lot more so your second or third city should at least get 1 strategic resource such as bronze or horses. Make sure you research the necessary techs for that first.

On a continent map with a normal number of civs you may not have the luxury of deciding that; you may have to spam out a couple of settlers and claim good-looking spots before you have time to research the techs that reveal those resources. Hopefully you'll be able to secure at least one of copper, horses, iron or ivory -- with a bit of luck you can survive on archers for a while, beeline Construction, and then crank out a bunch of catapults (and elephants if you have ivory) if you need to conquer someone.

 

[Kev]

I've been more of a lurker here with CivIV - was a HUGE CivII guy back in the day but failed to really get into CivIII. I really like the CivIV game because it forces one to play to the strengths of a particular civ within a wide variety of circumstances.

I think this is especially true once one gets to Monarch and above. It is impossible to play the same cookie-cutter style with each civ and win consistently. One must really leverage a civ's specific traits and, if possible, their unique building and unit as well.

For example, it is a great stategy for Augustus (creative, organized) to beeline iron and landgrab/annex like crazy in the early game, but it certainly might not be the proper start (at least not to the same extent) for a leader such as Saladin (philo, spiritual).

You have, what I consider, a pretty great start for any civ, but with RamsesII it is particularly nice to have the marble. Being industrious and spiritual, this could very well let itself to a game that stresses religion and science.

Consider too that Stonehenge would provide every city Egypt's unique 'building' - the obelisk. With marble (and industrious), the Oracle is a definite if you want it, and with those two items (along with the possibilty of using two priest specialists with obelisk), I would think a great prophet could pop out fairly soon. Should you already have writing and monotheism, you could lightbulb Theology if I'm not mistaken.

Consider as well that the unique unit, the war chariot, could not only keep you safe with regard to barbs (they are great barb killers), but if your nearest neighbor cannot come up with metals right away they can be used to overrun cities that are protected by archers only.

You already start with the Wheel and Agriculture - two great techs (and 1/2 of the necessary items for chariots). I'd go for Animal husbandry first to be able to utilize the cow for some hammers and reveal horses. From there, mining and bronze working for the ability to chop, showing bronze, and switching (anarchy free) to slavery. With great food in the capital, you can likely use the whip well.

From there, I'd go for religious and science techs with masonry (for utilizing marble) in there somewhere. I'd try for some combination of mystic, poly, priest, mono, writing and then hit alphabet. I think that with some good science and perhaps a few huts with cash (seems you already have 92 gold - must have been a nice hut pop from settling), you'll be able to hit alphabet and trade for some tech fillers (archery, hunting, fishing) and possibly some good key techs (iron, monarchy). From there, I usually hit literature. I see that you have fishing set as your current tech. I am very much NOT an expert so keep that in mind, but even with a few crabs off shore I'd still hold off on that one. Perhaps that is a weak point in my own style and others will correct me, but 9 turns is a lot for fishing right now in my mind.

One other item is to consider pottery somewhere in the mix. It not only will give you access to granaries and cottages (should you decide on a cottage economy especially), but it opens up metal casting which is a great tech to take with the Oracle (forges, Colossus and a great trading chip).

Depending how much room you have, I'd try to chop/whip settlers for at least two more cities (along with some sort of escort), but if you feel that Stonehenge is in danger you can go for that in-between I guess. From there you can decide whether it would be better to continue expanding or look to expand by conquer.

With marble and industrious, wonders like the Great Library and the Parthenon also become quite viable depending on production, so keep those in mind.

With this type of start, you have some great options. You can look to run a speciality economy and try to get some great people into the mix. It's nice with few key wonders like the Library and Parthenon and being spiritual means you can dabble in the caste system and pacifism for periods of time without issues as well. Depending how the rest of the land looks, a cultural victory might not be out of the question as well, though you'd have to decide that pretty early.

I hope you keep us up to date. I've been getting much better on Monarch (about 80% wins) and now looking to move up, but I think games like these (and the others I see in these forums) are invaluable learning tools.

Sorry for being so long-winded.

 

[fugazi]

So I played some.

Anno 1810BC, I've researched Animal Husbandry, Mining, Bronzeworking, Mysticism and Masonry. I got fishing from a hut up north to my capital, lucky me.

I founded a second city to the west with sheep, bronze, an oasis and wine in it's fat cross. The obelisk has just been build and I got 15 turns to go till it 'pops'.

I met Augustus Caesar and he already found two cities, one ontop of the 2nd bronze vein that I know of and he basically left me without room to expand. Perhaps I should build a city 'beyond' his territory but I'm not sure if that's such a great move financially. Maybe I should simply build up an army and kick his teeth in.

 

[Kev]

Sounds like the theory of having great resources in your capial lends itself to a more crowded start is proving true here.

My experience is that Augustus is a major league land-grabber (creative and organized) and a pain as a close neighbor. Keep an eye out to see if he starts producing any iron units - you obviously won't be seeing any iron yourself until you research it, and if he has any that he gets online best to stay as peaceful as possible...

Did animal husbandry reveal any horses nearby? My first thought is to hook those up and tackle Augustus early with war chariots and a few axemen, but I'm not sure if it's even now too late to try that. Still would be handy to get some chariots around in any case.

It'd be helpful to see your current map and to know what you've been producing in your cities...

 

[fugazi]

I've played it till a pretty late age and I can't tell wether it's a lost case or not. How I've managed to stay ahead of the other civs with research is a miracle ..

I'll be posting some screenies later.

 

[fugazi]

I've made a few saves inbetween but this is where I 'stranded'. I built up an army of macemen and catapults since iron is just outside my reach and since Augustus so many cities, it may be best to simply give Brennus a headache first.

I should have tried warring earlier but I think an axeman war would have been futile. Tolose and Bibracta are nice targets, they're next to each other and are his biggest cities.

FYI - it seems that I got lucky with the resources because most of the land near me sucked and the AI's were closer to it and they took all of it before I had a chance to settle it. Augustus had about 4 cities before I knew it and Brennus kept the north shut simply because of his starting position. A lack of horses and quite some distance to the bronze caused me to skip the axeman axe of warfare.

Perhaps that has been a mistake but I'm still ahead with techs and I'm heading towards liberalism so I can get cavalry not much later. I got horses thanks to the silly city to the west.

 

[Softnum]

Post save For The Win.

 

[fugazi]

I made a really terrible mistake though, just look at the catapult promotions can't remember what the hell I was thinking.