Monarchy as a research target?

[gavenkoa]

I played so many games with Charismatic or Gold/Silver/Gems/Ivory (+Industrious!) nearby or with Pyramids on Emperor that I just ignored Monarchy. I only was curious why people bother.

Now I tried Immortal game (which is with +4 Happy limit) without any above benefits and tried to incorporate Monarchy into the gameplay: Starting from T60-70 I felt happy caps constrains explosive growth and exhausts whip/angry capacity.

My starting position encouraged me to failgold on Mable so I tried Oracle and it is a prerequisite for Monarchy ))

I delayed Writing to max failgold from Temple of Artemis and succeeded with Oracle (T65). The most costly tech is Metal Casting. Unfortunately I feel it is a wrong choice as it gave no immediate benefits (nor through trades as Alphabet is 20-30T in the future).

Could you give general advice regarding Monarchy as a research target? When to approach? Why people prefer Code of Law instead or wait for trade instead of early self research...

 

[Gumbolt]

Trade for it. Ai always trade it even at cautious. Unless your beelining with Oracle for happiness. Just like IW ai don't seem to value it. No wonders attached?

On my current game i self teched MC as excellent trade tech. No ai had it. Stored up 300+ gold and completed in 5-6 turns (Huge map). So don't knock MC. Traded for monarchy 4 turns later. Plus 3-4 other techs like alphabet, maths and IW.

 

[Heathcliff]

In Isolation Monarchy is the first big tech you should reasearch.
But because it is so popular among the AI you might as well trade for it.

 

[gavenkoa]

I collected comments from the last year on Civ4 Strategy&Tips, they discuss pros&cons of Monarchy:

Monarchy could be good since there is wine, but CHA+ivory might be enough happines too.

you can always gift him Monarchy for diplo bonus for sharing discoveries and another diplo bonus for favourite civic.

Both currency and monarchy are needed, currency is even more awesome on difficulties where you have time to sell the AIs alot of the small stuff like poly/medi/priesthood etc.

Probably valuing monarchy higher than alpha (unless someone has monarchy) and definitely way higher than currency, which is a tech that let's your tech rate explode assuming you have an empire with strong cities already.

I agree that Monarchy would've been a good play, but I'd advise against switching to it now that you have access to no less than four (!) Calendar ressources.

I’d oracle monarchy. Happiness situation makes monarchy essential whereas COL is just a nice option. I’d also prefer not to found a religion because it means everyone hates you when you meet them and it prevents religion autospreads from giving you diplomatic options down the line.

I think Monarchy is the play for diplo reasons, but I dont hate CoL > Philo bulb > Pacifism. You can get by in Iso with size 5 cities and a size 6 cap, especially when you dont have a really strong commerce cap.

You lack happiness resources too. Aztecs have ivory but would never trade it to you. You needed monarchy or mids. That or calendar.

I did the same mistake, went to monarchy through meditation because it's cheaper.
Had I not done that, getting out the astro guys with CoL would have been much easier!

Once I get monarchy, I can grow my cities big to work quite a lot of riverside cottages, wine, and scientists.

Currency after HBR is certainly a choice. Another choice is Monarchy, for the extra happiness under
HR and for the Wines resource. But I'm not sure if it's worth teching Monarchy in your game, because
AI Catherine likes HR so she might get early Monarchy, which means you may get Monarchy from Cathy.
IIRC, Monarchy is usually very easy to get through tech trading.

Given the shortage of commerce and relative abundance of production it was quicker to get HR happiness via building Pyramids rather than researching monarchy.

This iso map is abit of an odd case due to the silver, two happines from forges makes much heavier emphasis on forges and makes it possible to ignore monarchy.
But ignoring monarchy is probably dumb now since rushing optics isn't as important as I'm used to.

The two techs that I would love to get, but are not required to get before astro is monarchy and currency.
Monarchy I have an normal intuition for when to get since it's so common. But I can't recal a single Iso game where I have ever gone currency.

Big decision here is if you want to go for monarchy before the optics beeline. There is wine which speaks for monarchy, but OTOH your first 3 cities doesn't really benefit that much from a higher happycap (working more flatland cottages isn't exacly woo-hoo when you have to pay upkeep for each warrior providing another population).

Not a monarchy map now imo, Forges are easy builds with IND so you are getting +2 happy from your gems in the future.

Monarchy is good for the happy surplus. CoL is good for the specialist bulbs options. Monarchy is probably the safest, more linear option. CoL needs a lot of food surplus, which you seem to lack.

NB : note that the trouble with Monarchy (or Hereditary Rule) is that you don't need the extra happiness if you lack the food surplus to take advantage of it.
Edit : Am I contradicting myself ? Yes, both CoL and Monarchy need food surplus to yield great results.

 

[Gumbolt]

I would play the map.You need warriors to really make happiness work with monarchy or your spending 25H on archers or 35 on axes. It means avoiding hunting or not connecting metal in 1-2 cities. I mostly go rep if I build mids. +3 happiness in largest 6 cities.

I play too war like to make diplomacy work. Assuming Monarchy and COL were only options. You certainly want COL before any golden age. Apart from that who builds CH's and runs caste early game? Generally whipping early on should be stronger. Growing into unhappiness is not a bad thing in the BC era. Beelining Priesthood every game is not a strong play. Oracle not guaranteed on higher levels.

Not sure how much this thread will help your game as every map is different.

Are you struggling early game or just looking to improve? I assume your trying deity or at least beating immortal?

 

[gavenkoa]

Not sure how much this thread will help your game as every map is different.

I don't know either...

During the search I was impressed by suggestion to research & gift Monarchy for relation bonus both from the gift and from running Heredity Rule (favorite AI civic). It is situational but cannot imaging how many games I need to play to deduce it myself...

 

[sampsa]

Biggest reasons NOT to tech monarchy:

• you've built the Mids
• you can get it easily via trade
• you are CHA or otherwise have a high -cap

Having wine might push you towards monarchy, too. Hard to give any specific advice to such an unspecific question, but I'd say HR is a strong civic in general.

 

[Gumbolt]

I don't know either...

During the search I was impressed by suggestion to research & gift Monarchy for relation bonus both from the gift and from running Heredity Rule (favorite AI civic). It is situational but cannot imaging how many games I need to play to deduce it myself...

Downside is you speed up the ai getting feudalism. If you are planning any sort of war that could be a bad thing. Also risk your attack target vassals to another ai as they have feudalism.

If the ai love HR as fav civic and you want a happy neighbour by all means. Ai like Cathy can attack at pleased anyway. I prefer gifting resources or a less valued tech. I rarely do this. Guess i need to try deity more.

 

[gavenkoa]

Downside is you speed up the ai getting feudalism. If you are planning any sort of war that could be a bad thing. Also risk your attack target vassals to another ai as they have feudalism.

You described all nasty things might happen with Feudalism. Starting from Longbow and ending with vassalage.

I cannot wage early war (due to irrational love to build some wonders), I used to big Catapult stacks because at the time Longbows are everywhere... In a way I don't afraid Feudalism, but I'm not a Deity player to worry about opportunity time frame ))

 

[Gumbolt]

You described all nasty things might happen with Feudalism. Starting from Longbow and ending with vassalage.

I cannot wage early war (due to irrational love to build some wonders), I used to big Catapult stacks because at the time Longbows are everywhere... In a way I don't afraid Feudalism, but I'm not a Deity player to worry about opportunity time frame ))

On immortal and below, you should have time frame for catapult/axe/phant before longbow arrive. Even then catapults and phants can beat xbow/longbow. Albeit hill cities can be a pain. I suspect the wonders hugely slow down your empire. Hence monarchy dilema.

I find wonder spamming a bad thing unless mids or GLH. Even then it will depend on techs, location and resources. On huge maps it punishes tech diversions. Then the debate is capture/ build. Let the nearby ai build wonders and capture them when and if you have the military. I tried wonder spamming with Inca's. Every map i tried the logical choices always outweighed wonders. Be it tech or expansion. Big diversions to Oracle would be harder on huge maps.

 

[coanda]

Downside is you speed up the ai getting feudalism. If you are planning any sort of war that could be a bad thing.

True, but I'm not sure it's the most relevant problem. Feudalism is just such a high-priority tech for the AIs that if I'm planning on hitting with Engineering or later, I assume they'll have Feudalism already regardless of what my own tech path was. Once in a while you get lucky, but it's not something I would count on.

And if I'm planning on hitting with Construction or Horseback Riding, I won't spare the time for a Monarchy detour first simply because it's too many beakers that aren't directly on the tech line.

 

[Gumbolt]

True, but I'm not sure it's the most relevant problem. Feudalism is just such a high-priority tech for the AIs that if I'm planning on hitting with Engineering or later, I assume they'll have Feudalism already regardless of what my own tech path was. Once in a while you get lucky, but it's not something I would count on.

And if I'm planning on hitting with Construction or Horseback Riding, I won't spare the time for a Monarchy detour first simply because it's too many beakers that aren't directly on the tech line.

True monarchy beeline pretty much kills off any early rush. It's a 4 tech detour. It's one of the reasons people don't go early religion. As you always tend to want BW, food techs or pottery/writing early on.

 

[gavenkoa]

On huge maps it punishes tech diversions

I played duel and now small.

Originally because I figured out it makes game easier (less AI less trades thus less tech advancement speed). And then because there are less game events (less tiles!) so I can have more finished games instead of few but long.

I see that this influence my experience. Like if you play vs a single AI you can afford every wonder on IMM )) Need to play on bigger maps to better understand what is discussed here on the forum.

I though about normal sized map as a next level of difficulty but I accustomed to quicker small maps.

 

[Lennier]

I find wonder spamming a bad thing unless mids or GLH. Even then it will depend on techs, location and resources. On huge maps it punishes tech diversions. Then the debate is capture/ build. Let the nearby ai build wonders and capture them when and if you have the military. [Emphasis added] I tried wonder spamming with Inca's. Every map i tried the logical choices always outweighed wonders. Be it tech or expansion. Big diversions to Oracle would be harder on huge maps.

The chances of a nearby AI building a wonder (so you can capture early enough to make a difference) vs. a far-away AI building a wonder (so by the time you can capture it, you've already got the game in hand, or lost the game before you can capture it) is much smaller on huge maps than normal size ones.

 

[Gumbolt]

On duel or small maps very possible. On Huge more luck.

 

[Anysense]

This is all from the point of view of a normal speed addict. But distance does not matter on marathon much.

 

[Henrik75]

I would only self-tech monarchy on isolation or no tech trade game. Otherwise always trade for it, one AI will usually go there very early even before writing, and they always trade it unless its shaka/stalin/ragnar/degaulle.

In Isolation I usually research Monarchy when I have researched my initial improvement techs & bronze working, and got my library up. (Tech writing then keep slider at 0% until library done pretty much).

In No tech trade it depends. I could delay it really long and prioritize other things like calendar or currency or CoL first, but i'd probably want monarchy before pushing civil service because what's the point of a size 5 beauro capital, grow that **** first.

 

[gavenkoa]

The last game I player I self-teched Monarchy after the Writing, also securing Oracle. It was 20T before other 2 AIs got to the Monarchy so my cities grew size 7 (using Wine in addition to Warriors).

I see it OK (city size & Oracle) but someone else might rushed AIs with Horses )) It could be that I enjoy some role-playing ))

 

[Gumbolt]

Save? How many cities? what date? With a cha leader with 1-2 resources at size 7 with a monument you should be close to happy at size 7? The point of HR civic is to allow you a size 13-16+ size city later on. Maybe size 13+ by 1ad on normal speed. I have seen Sampsa games with much bigger cities at that date. If you have 3-4 decent food resources easily possible.

 

[gavenkoa]

@Gumbolt

It is T80 and I self teched Monarchy next turn:

1080 BC I got Metal Casting through Oracle and finished AH + started work on Monarchy. A bit early I got 100G from Temple of Artemis that funded teching.

A sparse city placement is to block AI settling top of the island. Few cities as I was busy failgold & to avoid increased maintenance cost.

The save is from "original" BsT, no mods are required. (actually I set Bug MOD in user assets, for BULL I replaced original DLL but it should be invisible for others).