Monarchy or Representation?

[TheMeInTeam]

I usually don't "build" pyramids, I take them. My hammers when into the same axemen that took other cities as well. After I have pyramids my cap issues are pretty severe and I need more units fast. I was unaware that the math was horribly bad for improving both with the 1 turn of anarchy, but maybe so. You deity gods know best, after all.

The assumption of simply capturing them is asinine. You BUILD them for rep. I'm not mistaken in recalling that word choice earlier.

And what kinds of losses are you taking that early game from war is so crippling that it makes PS superior to rep or even monarchy? Are you just spamming horse archers and running a continent or something? I guess PS might help you when you're going after that 3rd/4th civ. Sounds pretty fringe.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Creative gives cheap libraries, colosseum and theatres - or is that only in BtS?

I play Warlords. No cheap libraries for Hatty. If there were, I agree that would make a considerable difference.

 

[uat2d]

The assumption of simply capturing them is asinine. You BUILD them for rep. I'm not mistaken in recalling that word choice earlier.

And what kinds of losses are you taking that early game from war is so crippling that it makes PS superior to rep or even monarchy? Are you just spamming horse archers and running a continent or something? I guess PS might help you when you're going after that 3rd/4th civ. Sounds pretty fringe.

Why build them if I can steal them? Besides, unless I overwhip without happy resources or military presence, Representation isn't attractive. Monarchy has more AIs that favor it, works in every city and (IIRC) has less upkeep than Representation.

The Pyramids can be nice if I happen to capture them and am hurting for more units, as with Police State it's like getting 5 trebuchets for the price of 4, comes in handy by the time castles and longbows start popping up everywhere. The reduced war weariness is just a nice bonus, I don't usually notice it unless I'm in a war of attrition with lost of causalities, but not the main reason to run Police State.

As for the war weariness, instead of fighting multiple AIs, just finish them off one by one. 1000 war weariness simply go away if that enemy is removed from the game and you can declare war on some other player immediately with a reset on the war weariness.

As for religion, I often get to found at least one, most of the time it's because I was the first to hit Code of Laws. If playing a Financial leader I may also get Philosophy on my way to Liberalism. Anyway, unless I'm isolated, there's no point in switching unless it starts spreading around to nearby AIs. Most of the times though I just adopt the one run by the religion block that can be more dangerous to me on the short run while building some diplo with trades. By the time I get to Liberalism most of the world already hates me anyway for my warring and I usually just go with the Taj's GA to change to Free Religion for the extra science while also getting all the other CE civics (Universal Suffrage, Free Speech, Emancipation).

 

[Archon_Wing]

Although the diplomatic benefits of HR are quite notable, it doesn't change the fact that Pyramids are usually built with the intention of switching to rep. We were talking about building them, not capturing them; as stated in the OP.

If you happen to capture them and switch to HR/PS, that's kinda cool, but how often does that happen?

The +3 happiness from rep is usually enough to cover war weariness. It's highly unlikely that you will collect that much war weariness from such early wars. If you are, then you didn't plan the war particularly well. Even if you fight consecutive wars against multiple people, war weariness is per target. They should be dead, crippled, or vassaled pretty soon.

Besides, your conquered cities are going to suffer motherland unhappiness, and police state wouldn't help with that.

The other thing is that garrisons cost money. Rep gives +3 happiness in your largest cities. Let's just assume you're gonna have 1 garrison regardless. You'd need at least 10 garrisons for HR to match that.

Then there's the other benefit of rep... +3 beakers per specialist. Any crappy city that's not contributing soldiers, can have a library whipped and there's +12 science right there! Your slider can be blown to hell, yet those scientists will keep your research going and going...

If you have already have happiness resources, then it will be more and more skewed towards rep...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Why build them if I can steal them? Besides, unless I overwhip without happy resources or military presence, Representation isn't attractive. Monarchy has more AIs that favor it, works in every city and (IIRC) has less upkeep than Representation.

The Pyramids can be nice if I happen to capture them and am hurting for more units, as with Police State it's like getting 5 trebuchets for the price of 4, comes in handy by the time castles and longbows start popping up everywhere. The reduced war weariness is just a nice bonus, I don't usually notice it unless I'm in a war of attrition with lost of causalities, but not the main reason to run Police State.

As for the war weariness, instead of fighting multiple AIs, just finish them off one by one. 1000 war weariness simply go away if that enemy is removed from the game and you can declare war on some other player immediately with a reset on the war weariness.

As for religion, I often get to found at least one, most of the time it's because I was the first to hit Code of Laws. If playing a Financial leader I may also get Philosophy on my way to Liberalism. Anyway, unless I'm isolated, there's no point in switching unless it starts spreading around to nearby AIs. Most of the times though I just adopt the one run by the religion block that can be more dangerous to me on the short run while building some diplo with trades. By the time I get to Liberalism most of the world already hates me anyway for my warring and I usually just go with the Taj's GA to change to Free Religion for the extra science while also getting all the other CE civics (Universal Suffrage, Free Speech, Emancipation).

My point is that it is obviously better to capture them than build them, but that is not something you can rely upon doing.

The decision point is whether or not to build them. Why are we bothering to discuss whether it's good to capture them? It obviously is. It's the BUILD decision that matters. It's the BUILD decision that people have to get correct. If one can capture them reasonably why consider not doing so?

That's why I'm saying analyzing the value of pyramids by the returns of capturing them is asinine. Any wonder is materially better captured than built with the sole exception of 1-shot effects like oracle and taj.

 

[Skallagrimson]

The assumption of simply capturing them is asinine. You BUILD them for rep. I'm not mistaken in recalling that word choice earlier.

Your assumption that I assume is a faulty assumption. IF I capture 'mids there are SOME times when I see the flip to PS as more beneficial than a flip to Rep. Due to ongoing wars, and not a tremendous amount of food. Brown tiles for days and I'm supposed to flip a lot of specs? No can do. Map throws me into CE but US is suboptimal early game.

I can't remember the last time I ever set a build queue to 'mids for anything other than failgold as the only time I seem to manage to "build" them is if I role Industrial and stone, and that is, to use your word choice, "fringe".

And what kinds of losses are you taking that early game from war is so crippling that it makes PS superior to rep or even monarchy? Are you just spamming horse archers and running a continent or something? I guess PS might help you when you're going after that 3rd/4th civ. Sounds pretty fringe.

Sometimes it's an HA gambit beating its head against spear spam, sometimes it's an axe rush gone out of control due to escalation of the wars; sometimes it's a protective civ that I can't tolerate to continue existing (Tokugawa); sometimes I simply get greedy and feel I have economic juice enough to take down a second (or third) AI. Sometimes I've been caught in situations where the only build queue item I *can* assign, is units, and so I have to conquer my way out of the STRIKE zone. Raze for days. And citizens get weary of that after a time.

 

[Skallagrimson]

The decision point is whether or not to build them. Why are we bothering to discuss whether it's good to capture them? It obviously is. It's the BUILD decision that matters. It's the BUILD decision that people have to get correct. If one can capture them reasonably why consider not doing so?

I recall in one of your "let's play" videos (the archipelago with Toku as one of your neighbors) that you yourself mentioned it's extremely rare on the higher levels to actually "build" pyramids, and the main reason to even try for it is for the failgold. Will the real TMIT please click the mouse now?

 

[bhavv]

TMIT speaks the truth, you should listen to him.

I manage fine on Immortal without Mids.

You dont need it - GLH + Rex is far superior if all you want is extra science.

GLH is the only wonder I prioritize building on Immortal, and if I can get it then also Stonehenge for a CHA leader (I normally want both Stonehenge + GLH for Hannibal for lots of supersize cities without needing either Monarchy or Representation - I never need to research Monarchy nor use the Mids as Hannibal to get loads of science and happiness).

I suppose if your not using CHA, then you need to beeline Monarchy or rely on getting it via trade very early on, but building the Mids on Immortal+ is a serious no - no. I rely heavily on CHA on higher difficulties rather than Monarchy or the Mids, or on either Pacal or Mehmed who get very early +2 buildings.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Your assumption that I assume is a faulty assumption. IF I capture 'mids there are SOME times when I see the flip to PS as more beneficial than a flip to Rep. Due to ongoing wars, and not a tremendous amount of food. Brown tiles for days and I'm supposed to flip a lot of specs? No can do. Map throws me into CE but US is suboptimal early game.

Apparently my assumptions are fine, because I'm still reading nonsense about capturing pyramids as an argument to refute my statement that building them is not an effective rush/early war tactic.

You can keep saying things and give 0 examples, but it won't change the reality that uses for PS from mids in an "early war" are fringe. I'm still waiting on that example where you *build* the pyramids and benefit from PS. If I don't see one, my assumption is perfect and the original statement I made stands.

If the captured land is such trash that you can't benefit from rep, why are you capturing it?

I can't remember the last time I ever set a build queue to 'mids for anything other than failgold as the only time I seem to manage to "build" them is if I role Industrial and stone, and that is, to use your word choice, "fringe".

It's rare but good players can show good enough ROI on it sometimes. Check out Rusten's deity/quick win on the HoF front tables.

Sometimes it's an HA gambit beating its head against spear spam, sometimes it's an axe rush gone out of control due to escalation of the wars; sometimes it's a protective civ that I can't tolerate to continue existing (Tokugawa);

These are all examples of using PS to compensate for bad play, and even during these examples it might not be the best choice. Probably isn't.

Sometimes I've been caught in situations where the only build queue item I *can* assign, is units, and so I have to conquer my way out of the STRIKE zone. Raze for days. And citizens get weary of that after a time.

Conquest strategy could use some alteration. I can triple horse archer rush and not get caught in this "can only build units" mire...and I'm nowhere near the best at it...

I recall in one of your "let's play" videos (the archipelago with Toku as one of your neighbors) that you yourself mentioned it's extremely rare on the higher levels to actually "build" pyramids, and the main reason to even try for it is for the failgold. Will the real TMIT please click the mouse now?

Please re-read my posts and take a more careful look at the point I'm making, because this quoted snippet misses it entirely.

The point is that we're not interested in a "is it good to capture pyramids" question. That's as asinine as a "should I build tile improvements" question.

The point is that actual STRATEGY on pyramids is the answer to "is building them myself worth the cost/opportunity cost I pay in doing so". Even in this thread I've said the answer is often no, so I'm not sure why there is some implied inconsistency on my part to the extent of "will the real TMIT stand up" or some such nonsense.

I said "if you build mids, you build them for rep". There has not been a single post on this entire thread to refute that statement. In fact, there's no opposing argument at all! In order to argue a point, the arguments presented against it have to actually address the point, and that hasn't happened yet.

Seriously, show us even one game where switching into PS during an "early war" is the most beneficial course of action. Where do you want to set the date for "early"? 1 AD? 500 AD? Once you start getting past lib times we're not talking about "early" any longer.

 

[elohssa]

Representation can be pretty awesome on an archipelago map (especially without financial). Those coastal tiles (yet alone ocean ones) are very weak.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Representation can be pretty awesome on an archipelago map (especially without financial). Those coastal tiles (yet alone ocean ones) are very weak.

The problem is that GLH and colossus often dominate the returns of pyramids at less opportunity cost on those maps.

 

[bhavv]

Representation can be pretty awesome on an archipelago map (especially without financial). Those coastal tiles (yet alone ocean ones) are very weak.

Pyramids takes far too long to be worth building just for Representation, and GLH + Colossus are a lot more powerful on archipelago maps and pay for themselves in the long run. (Colossus isnt really too important, but it does allow you to run your science rate 10-20% higher on coastal maps).

Its also not the coastal tiles alone that makes the archipelago strategy work, but the GLH which benefits from having as many coastal cities as you can possibly put up. You get the biggest contribution to your economy through the trade routes, which becomes even more profitable once you have foreign and intercontinental routes. There is usually plentiful seafood resources on such maps, and wherever you have seafood available you should settle a city. Having the Colossus on top with Lighthouses and Harbors / Cothons in every coastal city allows each city to pay for itself and run a profit. All you need is GLH + Colossus, plus loads of coastal cities with just Lighthouses and Cothons, and you can remain in first place for Science and score on Immortal difficulty.

In my last Immortal game as Hannibal, Colossus was giving me over 30 GPT by the time I reached Liberalism and took Astronomy for free, which allowed me to run a higher science rate up that point. Normally you would want to delay Astronomy a little longer while using the Colossus, but I needed Galleons too much to do that, plus a few Observatories makes up for the loss of the Colossus.

I also play a lot of Archipelago maps as Mehmed, and no Pyramids is still not better than GLH + Colossus for him.

Mids is only a good strategy for IND leaders on < Emperor difficulty and inland maps. Its not useful for Non IND leaders from Monarch onwards, and IND leaders on Immortal / Deity (really bad idea to even play IND on the top two difficulties anyway).

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I will just note one thing not yet mentioned about building Pyramids. Not only does it get you Representation, but if you manage it, you can also get 2 Great Engineers. I often use the first GE to bulb MC and then immediately build Colossus. Depending on the situation, I may use the second one to build the Great Library.

 

[bhavv]

You can also get Great Engineers using a forge + engineer slot though. I just got one in my last game and used it to rush Temple of Artemis in my GLH + Colossus capital, and later managed to chop the Great Library (playing an easy Archipelago game as Pacal on Emperor for fun). Theres absolutely no way I'd be able to get the Mids on top of those at Emperor difficulty (they were already gone when I got my GE, only the Temple of Artemis was still available), and on Immortal I can completely forget about trying for anything more than GLH + Colossus.

And I completely forgot to build the National Epic as I always do :x

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I will just note one thing not yet mentioned about building Pyramids. Not only does it get you Representation, but if you manage it, you can also get 2 Great Engineers. I often use the first GE to bulb MC and then immediately build Colossus. Depending on the situation, I may use the second one to build the Great Library.

Scientists tend to be better on average, though there are some cute early uses for engineers. If you want a fast engineer oracle MC + whip forge + run spec is probably the way to go.

Scientists are the key to 200 AD liberalism times and 500 BC engineering times, however.

Also, some posters above underestimate colossus. Colossus makes coast better than anything but riverside cottages for pure commerce. You're looking at 4-8+ commerce/city without additional tile improvement overhead. Not as good as GLH with foreign intercontinental trade, but easily one of the stronger wonders in the game.

However, it doesn't synergize very well with building mids for rep; lots of investment to get both (yes even with an engineer, you have opp cost) and rep specs means not working colossus coast and vice versa. You should always farm some GPP but rep specs are meant to take it beyond that, while colossus isn't.

Colossus tech path is very strong for IND leaders.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

You can also get Great Engineers using a forge + engineer slot though. I just got one in my last game and used it to rush Temple of Artemis in my GLH + Colossus capital, and later managed to chop the Great Library (playing an easy Archipelago game as Pacal on Emperor for fun). Theres absolutely no way I'd be able to get the Mids on top of those at Emperor difficulty (they were already gone when I got my GE, only the Temple of Artemis was still available), and on Immortal I can completely forget about trying for anything more than GLH + Colossus.

And I completely forgot to build the National Epic as I always do :x

If I have Stone in Thebes, I almost never lose a race to build any of the early stone-based wonders. Even at Immortal, I can delay it awhile to get at least two cities working before I start on it.

 

[elohssa]

Colossus is probably best if you have Carracks (Portugal), as that means you can delay Galleys/Astronomy for a while longer than with other civs.

 

[uat2d]

Colossus is probably best if you have Carracks (Portugal), as that means you can delay Galleys/Astronomy for a while longer than with other civs.

And on Archipelago maps, the Feitoria can be put to some good use.

Even though I'd personally prefer the Dutch for their dikes, on Archipelago maps there's often a shortage of hammers rather than a shortage of commerce.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Apparently my assumptions are fine, because I'm still reading nonsense about capturing pyramids as an argument to refute my statement that building them is not an effective rush/early war tactic.

You can keep saying things and give 0 examples, but it won't change the reality that uses for PS from mids in an "early war" are fringe. I'm still waiting on that example where you *build* the pyramids and benefit from PS. If I don't see one, my assumption is perfect and the original statement I made stands.

If the captured land is such trash that you can't benefit from rep, why are you capturing it?

You should probably switch to decaf. We had a misunderstanding is all. You were talking purely 100% "build" pyramids and I had in mind situations where you "end up with" pyramids. And admittedly sometimes I "end up with pyramids" when a failgold mission fails to fail and I just get them.

PS from it is fringe if you don't early war much. I early war a lot. That's just a different play style. The reason for capturing land can be legion: sometimes self-defense after a DoW; non-razing for the purposes of blocking off a settlement incursion by a third party AI; one key resource (iron) surrounded by trash; and it's not uncommon to roll a start where it's mostly brown tiles, so the closest to an SE you could possibly generate would be an accidental hammers economy from all the plains farms.

I agree that mostly Rep most of the time would be the way to go with 'mids, although I acknowledge there are exceptions to the rule and you do not. And that's okay. One of us is chill about it, here. The other is dancing around the outskirts of a flame war about it, and I've made the mistake of taking such bait from other posters in the past. After a "time out" from CFC, not taking such bait again.

Conquest strategy could use some alteration. I can triple horse archer rush and not get caught in this "can only build units" mire...and I'm nowhere near the best at it...

Well that's why you're a deity and I'm a mere mortal monarch practicing blasphemy on a daily basis. Prometheus gets his liver eaten out just for showing me how to make fire.

I said "if you build mids, you build them for rep". There has not been a single post on this entire thread to refute that statement.

Nor in youtube when you said you can queue them for failgold? Just want to get on the same page here and not misunderstand your point, nor anger you again.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I come off as angry here more than I intend. I definitely wasn't here, so I apologize for that. I won't flame you though. Just because I believe someone is wrong about a topic doesn't mean I look down on them in general (those feelings are reserved for cheaters and people who join games just to ruin them...as in ruining them is their express purpose).

Nor in youtube when you said you can queue them for failgold? Just want to get on the same page here and not misunderstand your point, nor anger you again.

Well, if you got failgold you didn't build them. You "attempted" to build them. The problem with doing this is the unreliability. As you noticed, sometimes it takes forever when what you need is gold or gold stores now.

Well that's why you're a deity and I'm a mere mortal monarch practicing blasphemy on a daily basis. Prometheus gets his liver eaten out just for showing me how to make fire.

I practice blasphemy a little too much too. I'm just abusive .

But seriously, the outcome of a HA or cata war is going 1 of 2 ways:

1. You successfully roll the target(s) and are likely to have unlocked heroic epic to bolster an already strong standing army. In this case, you need money/research, not more production.
2. Your rush sputters out, and you're left scrambling for units. Capturing and holding mids in this scenario isn't likely. You also have to weight the extra with the less you have as war weariness is not harsh earlygame...a 25% boost when your 2 best cities can work 2 less mines than under rep/monarchy isn't very helpful.

There are exceptions to this rush scenario (you rush and take a city the AI happened to put up pre-1000 BC mids on your border, and have a ton of resources), but those definitely qualify as "fringe", especially since a very powerful start doesn't beg a player to rush.

A lot of players on these boards just don't realize what is possible. For example, if you avoid researching/trading for fishing, you can have trebuchets, xbows, and pikes by around 500 BC. Are pyramids more valuable than that? Even on deity pre-1200 AD rifles aren't super common. How long would it take for monarch AI to get a tech to stop you? Players should consider this before investing heavily in other things. This game is all about tradeoffs.

Alternatively one can start isolated but bulb astro by late BC/early AD. Or very early lib.

When HA rushing, shut your slider off while building them, and store lots of money. Store even more as you conquer cities, and you should have enough time to capture a LOT of cities, extort tech, mass build research, etc before you run out of time and strike. In my challenger V let's play that had monarch/domination, I was running close to -200 /turn at one point in the game, but never lost a unit to strike .