Monarchy or Republic?

[MAS]

the main reason I believe monarchy to be a better war gov is not so much the lack of WW but the unit support. On several occasions I have switched to republic with a large military and found that I have to disband lots of units to balance my budget.

But military should pay for itself. If you build units, you conquer wit them. What you gain with conquest compensates for their costs.
Building a lot (defensive) units and place them inside each city just to have them stand there is wasteful, even in monarchy.

(the below is for vanilla and PTW, not C3C)
Your core cities would normally be size 12, they would produce, about 10 commerce from roads.
In monarchy, if you spend all 10 commerce to science, your city can still support 4 unit.
In republic, if you spend 10 commerce to science, your city can support 10 units and with a marketplace, it becomes 15 units.

Now its true that: the bonus from monarchy is never corrupted, while the republic bonus gets lost in cities further away. So the more cities you get (besides your core) the more favorable monarchy becomes compared to republic.
But its also true, that a larger empire, will require less units per city.

Its very likely you can do with less than 15 units per core city. So the bonus commerce can be spend on more science. (or other things)

on the other hand, if you have less units than maximum support in monarchy, that part of the bonus goes to waste.

regarding placement, I usually grab luxuries first, then fill in the gaps later. I do try to space cxxxc in my core and cxxc further out though.

My main concern is to get a productive core, if this causes me to miss out on a nearby lux, I can easily conquer that with a productive core.

 

[Theov]

(the below is for vanilla and PTW, not C3C)

Now its true that: the bonus from monarchy is never corrupted, while the republic bonus gets lost in cities further away. So the more cities you get (besides your core) the more favorable monarchy becomes compared to republic.

on the other hand, if you have less units than maximum support in monarchy, that part of the bonus goes to waste.

I think the lines I filtered out are also aplicable for C3C. (I am sorrryyyyy!! )
(although in C3C the unit support for Repo is 1-3-4 and 2 gpt per unit over the cap, - instead of 0-0-0 and 1gpt for vanilla.)

But if you are, eventually, byond the expanding phase (settler/worker) and the cities start to grow... I can't imagine many situations where Monarchy is better than Repo.
I could rephrase that to "I cant imagine switching from Despo to Monarch is so much better than to wait in Despo and laiter switch to Republic."

I love to know situations where one Gov is better than the other - and Monarchy is pretty much the one I don't get.

 

[Theov]

Monarchy is 0 free units general and 2-4-8 free per town-city-metro with 1gpu over the free limit. Were you thinking of democracy?

oh darnit - I must have been thinking of 0-0-0 and 1 gpt for republic vanilla and 2-4-8 for monarchy at the same time

 

[Pyrrhos]

You're right as ususal, Meisen. Anyone who lets a game go on long enough for this, anyone who researches and switches to Demo, builds Hoover Dams/Nuclear Plants, Factories/Mfg Plants in order to achieve this really cannot be taken seriously.

 

[Chamnix]

When you’re right, you’re right. My cities just don’t compare :













None of them even reached 20 spt .



(Standard map, monarch level, 60% water pangaea, modded so Arabia starts without Pottery, all AI get a bonus musketman at the start plus 4 bonus unit support, ansar warriors cost 70 shields instead of 60 – conquest victory in 320 AD ).

 

[Bartleby]

The resource distribution is difficult to take seriously, anyway.

(long crosspost)

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Yeah, really. Who needs factories, anyway. They cost shields to build, gold to maintain, and what do they give you back? Higher production and pollution. Those nasty little triangles that put those orange blotches on the map that even ones hairdresser cant put a decent curl on. Yuck! And those metros? They're the worst of all, demanding all that space when one could put another city down or better yet, 2-4 science farms. The nerve of those greedy pigs.

Although, I suppose, you are being sarcastic here ... That is pretty much correct.

Just the other day I was playing a game and look at what those show-offs in Damascus did after they got their very own factory and coal plant:

Spoiler :

Oops, that's the wrong shot. Those hams were not aware that anyone was looking and were not ready. That was them slacking off at one of their all too frequent feasts. This is how they look when they are not pigging out on food and actually doing some work, for a change:

Spoiler :

Gorsch! What a doof I am (I hope I can call myself a doof without getting warned here, I've already got a warning for calling a bigot a doof here). I plum forgot Damascus has the Iron Works. No wonder they are such show-offs.

And what exactly am I supposed to be impressed about?

You have a metro with a production capacity of over 100. Super. What do you need that production for? Troops? LOL

You have
- a temple (60 shields)
- a cathedral (160 shields)
- a bank (160 shields)
- a hospital (160 shields)
- a factory (240 shields)
-------------------------------
total: 780 shields

780 shields equal approx. - handbuilt - 10 Cavs.

I can even get 26 cavs for 780 shields if I build Horsemen, and then upgrade.



Or am I supposed to be impressed about the game date. 1974 AD is exorbitantly late. What the heck have you been doing all this time anyway? The numbers for troops that I conjured up above (10 handbuilt, or 26 upgraded) certainly were not even meant for a date 76 turn before the end. I had something like the 1000 ADs in mind. But you were probably in the deepest middle ages then still.



And more. 1974 is the date, and somehow you have managed to still get not every tile worked. In the second shot there are 4 coastal tiles, and even a coastal fish left unworked. That is a crime, in a city with such a low corruption.

Here, there is no Iron Works in Memphis:

Spoiler :

Golly, gee whiz. Those people at Memphis tricked me. These shots are all from a mod where mountains provide an extra shield when mined so shield production of the mountains in that shot is about 25% more than in a stock epic game.

Same as above. Pretty much. What exactly do you need those capacities for?? Troops?

I think you have the same nigh useless improvements here too, so the same numbers apply here too. Only that now the tally stands at 1560 shields burned for nothing, when you could have had - almost - 20 handbuilt Cavs, or 52 Horses for upgrade.

Yaawwnn

I'll skip the next two cities, it is too depressing.

Whew! I sure wish I could go back to the old days of teensy-weensy 12 pop core cities without all those pollution producing factories and things. I could pack them in tight and never have to worry again about moving citizens to different squares when I wanted to change from shield to food or to commerce production.

Why not worry about moving tiles with size 12 cities? Does tiles swapping, and magic production numbers mean anything to you? I - at least - swap tiles a lot between my overlapping cities.

And since I never produce enough shields to wake the Pollution Gods, I need never worry that my cities starve when pollution deprives their 12 citizens of one of their cant do without food tiles. Or worse, cuts production in half by polluting one of their only two good shield producing tiles. I really hate having the freedom to move citizens about within cities, like I did above with Damascus, it's too easy.

You are just being wasteful as your supposed freedom to move laborers around comes at the expense of not raking in - if I am not misunderstood (it is always a bit hard to tell with your mods) - 11 commerce (4 x 2 from the coast + 3 from the fish).

Hey, but you have a factory. You have a cathedral. Brilliant.

And another thing, paying all those docs at those hospitals really twists my knickers, you know (are we allowed to write knickers here?). What do they give in return, but more people producing shields, beakers and food.

You don't get more people producing shields beakers and food.

Who needs that. And all those other improvements, they cost shields to build and gold to upkeep. Who needs them. Instead of a hospital, I could have had a...cavalry unit.

Wrong. You could have two. Handbuilt. Five+ if you upgrade.

I mean think about it, what's the point of planning for the future when you can have your cavalry unit right now? Without all those improvement bloated metros, I could have 200 science farms instead. And I could still build that one extra cavalry unit for each one of my 6-8 core cities! That's 8 cavalry units those hospitals take away.

No, that is 16 handbuilt Cavs. 42+ if you upgrade.

Wait a minute ... Do you not have about 3/2 more places to produce troops from when you place your cities closer. Certainly you do. Soo, strike those numbers above. Here are the correct ones:
That is 24 handbuilt cavs. 63+ if you upgrade.

And 8 more the factories take away. And 8 more the power plants take away. That's a whopping 24 cavalry I could have had!

And again your numbers are not correct.

That is your number for handbuilt cavs:
(3/2 x 8 x (160 + 240)) / 80 = 60

That is your number for horses (for upgrades):
(3/2 x 8 x (160 + 240)) / 30 = 160



And those two numbers are still not the whole story. Other factors that need to be considered are that there are more strings attached to metroes and factories. Increased happyness problems that might need to be solved come to mind. Pollution problems of course, that might need fixes. The numbers will skyrocket accordingly.

And what is most important, those numbers factor only in the acquisition cost of the hopital and the factory. They still haven't amortized yet.

And instead, what I got is 8 50-100spt metros in their place. Patooie! Life was so much easier before all those improvements ruined it all. I would just have my nonfactoried 30spt core cities start working on something and 10-20 turns later, they would tell me they were done.

What something are you working on that cost between 300 and 600 shields? Cavalries? No. Horsemen? No. Artilleries? No. Catapults/Trebs? No. Factories? Close.



Have you said anything else?

 

[Theov]

why don't you guys do a competition?
start at the same map. same locations. same conditions.
Ready? Go!

 

[MAS]

The Hover Dam is 800 shields, thats 5 coal plants. So the hover is cheaper if you build 6 coal plants.
But if you keep into account that 5 separate builds generate more shield overrun than a single build, hover is even cheaper than 5 coal plants. In addition, you'll have no pollution and no 3gpt maintenance per plant.

A power plant does nothing without a factory, so the hover only is useful if you build at least 5 factories in your empire.

This entire discussion is moot if you can win before you get to make serious use of IA tech. So we will ignore all games where this is the case and focus on games that are going to last into the modern age.

For the sake of this argument, I'll also assume the use of a general tight city placement, as an indication of a general effort to be as efficient as possible. Of course the situation is different if you restrict yourself to custom placement rules. I'm also assuming a standard epic game, no mods.

A factory is 240 shields
It costs 960 gold to rush (a bit less because of the one turn starter investment)
it represents 120 gold that would have been generated if you'd build wealth instead.

cavalry and artillery is 80 shields
Infantry is 90 shields
Mobile Infantry is 110 shields
Modern armor is 120 shields
A tank and bomber is 100 shields


First lets take a look at unit production:
Assuming an average city (I'm only counting core core cities for this) can produce 12 shields from mined grass and 12 from rails. Thats 24 shields A productive city will have some hills and bonus grass, so that could become 30 shields. A factory adds 15 to that. this cuts artillery and infantry production from 3 turns to 2 turns, and MI, MA, bomber and tank production from 4 turns to 3 turns. (saving 1 turn each time)

It would cost a 30 shields city 8 turns to build a factory. So it takes 24 turns with artillery and infantry and 32 turns with MI, MA, tanks and bombers to pay itself back.

 

[Chamnix]

It is kind of difficult to discuss strategy in any meaningful way if we are not all playing the same game. I have no doubt a mod can be created that would make certain strategies better than a similar strategy would be in the stock game.

I still haven't seen any good reason why democracy/Shakespeare's Theater/metros are a better strategy than Republic/12 citizens per city. Yes, metros can produce lots more shields and commerce than smaller cities can, but does that help you beat a level outside of your normal comfort zone or win more quickly or score higher? How? If it doesn't do any of those, then why suggest them based on the questions of the opening poster? Does anyone think the opening poster is playing meisen's mod?

 

[MAS]

Maybe its bad to let the thread go off topic but since the discussion is started anyway:

I do not agree with the notion that factories, and thus the Hover Ham are not worth it building! (though I admit the advantages are usually not that big)

Of course, this entire discussion is moot if you can win before you get to make serious use of IA tech. (duh) So we will ignore all games where this is the case and focus on games that are going to last into the modern age.

For the sake of this argument, I'll also assume the use of a tight (city size 12) city placement, as an indication of a general effort to be as efficient as possible.
Of course the situation is different if you restrict yourself to custom placement rules. And factories are worth more in wide placement, so it is more meaningful if I can show a factory is worth it in a size 12 city.
I'm also assuming a standard epic game, no mods.

So here is math.

The Hover Dam is 800 shields, thats 5 coal plants. So the hover is cheaper if you'd build 6 coal plants otherwise.
But if you keep into account that 5 separate builds generate more shield overrun than a single build, hover is even cheaper than 5 coal plants. In addition, you'll have no pollution and no 3gpt maintenance per plant.

A power plant does nothing without a factory, so the hover only is useful if you build at least 5 factories in your empire.

A factory is 240 shields
it represents 120 gold that would have been generated if you'd build wealth instead. (you'll need the economics tech to upgrade wealth to this)

cavalry and artillery is 80 shields
Infantry is 90 shields
Mobile Infantry is 110 shields
Modern armor is 120 shields
A tank and bomber is 100 shields


First lets take a look at unit production:
Assuming an average city (I'm only counting core cities for this) can produce 12 shields from mined grass and 12 from rails. Thats 24 shields A productive city will have some hills and bonus grass, so that could become 30 shields. A factory adds 15 to that. this cuts artillery and infantry production from 3 turns to 2 turns, and MI, MA, bomber and tank production from 4 turns to 3 turns. (saving 1 turn each time)

It would cost a 30 shields city 8 turns to build a factory. So it takes 24 turns with artillery and infantry and 32 turns with MI, MA, tanks and bombers to pay itself back.
You'd need 32 to 40 turns from the moment you start building a factory for it to be worth it.

Now lets look at it from a peaceful gold production PoV:
A factory in a 30 shield city produces 15 shields, worth 7 gpt in wealth, minus 3 for maintenance, this leaves 4 gpt from wealth.
38 turns building wealth at 30 spt is 570 gold
30 turns building wealth at 45 spt is 660 gold - 3*30 = 570 gold
So it takes 30 turns for the factory to pay itself back.
You'd need 38 turn from the moment you start building a factory for it to be worth it.

Payback time:
Since we assume a game that lasts into the modern age, it takes 13 tech from industrialization to get to the MA, with 4 turn research thats is 52 turns. So a factory easily has enough turns to pay itself back.
After that, the factory will only grant an advantage.

What is left is 30 shields cities:
5 of the cities Chamnix showed in post #31 could reach that number with rails. I think its not far fetched more than 5 can be found on most standard sized maps. Even small map can easily have 1 capital 1 FP and 4 first-tier cities. (maybe not a tiny map) On larger maps, its almost a certainty.

The Hover dam doubles the advantages for less cost than the factories. And it only gets better with each additional factory city you can get.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

That right there shows how much attention to detail your mind is capable of, IE:



Do you recognize that sentence, boy? Nah, I didn't think so. It's hard to read what someone else writes when your head is all full of yourself.

Well, admittedly I stopped reading at some point, because I didn't think that there was anything useful in your post.

And your figures are a bit off, btw.



Well, lets have a look, shall we.

temple=60
cathedral=120
bank=160
hospital=200
factory=240

That's 780 shields. How many cavs does that buy? 5

Why?

Cause they cost 147 each.

In the Civ version that I possess (Vanilla 1.29b2 Mac) a cathedral costs 160 shields for a nonreligious civ. A Hospital costs 160 shields. And a cavalry costs 80 shields.

And if my calculator hasn't failed me then 780 divided by 80 equals 9.75. Which is close to, i.e. almost 10.

(Maybe in your strange mod, that is different, but then you need to go and discuss your mod, and not the standart game.)

Now if I bought horseys and upgraded, that would cost 25 shields and 244 gold each (that's with upgrades only costing two times the shield cost difference between the two units, in a stock game this is three times the difference and would be 366 had I used that figure). So while I could get 31 horseys for that 780 shields, it would cost a whopping 7564 gold to upgrade them.

A horseman in a standart game costs 30 shields. A cav 80. In C3C upgrading costs 3 gold for each shield without and 1.5 gold for each shield with Leo's. In Vanilla, you pay 2 gold for each shield without and 1 gold with Leo.

So, a C3C player would pay (80-30)*3 = 150 gold for each horseman without, and 75 each with Leo's. Me, I would have to pay 100 gold without, and 50 with.


Hmmm ... maybe it would be better if you just argued from the standart game, instead of using the values from your arcane mod?

Now where would I get that amount of gold without banks?

I tell you. If for example, instead of researching Sanitation turn down my science slider for about 4 turns (or however long San's acquisition took you) then I have plenty of cash laying around.

(IRL, I agree with you about banks, they're a bunch sucking parasites, but in the game, they provide much needed funds for science research, which costs about 40-50% more in that mod and for paying for unit upgrades, when needed - you'll notice I still have a warrior code unit defending my capital )

Banks are not parasites, as you claim, per se. But IMO it is a bit wasteful to build both banks and unis. Most of the time I would settle to make a decision for only one of the two over the other. So either Banks or Unis, but not both. (The only exception is when I really don't have anything better to do; or when I am trying to fullfill the prerequisites for the Wall Street in Vanilla (5 banks).)

Now the wealth "improvement" converts 4 shields into 1 gold. So converting that 7564 gold into shields, I get 30,256 shields. Yowsers!

Again, it would probably be better if you just argued from the numbers of an unmodded standart game, instead of the numbers of some arcane mod.

Or have you just blundered with your math? You convert gold into shields, so if on shield counts for 4 gold that makes 7564/4 and not 7463*4.

Creative accounting is so much fun.... I only wish I could do with my business tax records the same things some of you guys do with the game stats here.

I stand by my numbers. Shall we go through the math again?

And by my original assertion. You'll certainly remember, factories are overrated in my view. Not useless. Moreover, did I say that I generally will have no issues with pollution because I am not gonna build any metroes and only very few factories.

If you have any issues with that, then please try again.

 

[Pyrrhos]

Or have you just blundered with your math? You convert gold into shields, so if on shield counts for 4 gold that makes 7564/4 and not 7463*4.

I stand by my numbers. Shall we go through the math again?

By all means, let us do! And from here on, I'll put no more than one sentence per paragraph so that it does not become too difficult to understand nor to follow:

*Meisen said: Now the wealth "improvement" converts 4 shields into 1 gold. So converting that 7564 gold into shields, I get 30,256 shields. Yowsers!

* YOUR assertion, Lord Emsworth, was that you could build x number of horsemen and then upgrade them to cavalry

* In order to complete all your upgrades for the number of horsemen you claimed, Meisen had calculated that you required 7564 gold

* Since you went on about shields, Meisen decided to convert the amount of gold required to shields in order to get a basis for comparison worthy of your skills of argumentation

[Are you still with me? Good! ]

* The exchange rate is, atrociously, four (4) gold for one (1) shield when you cash rush or four (4) shields for one (1) gold if you set production to "wealth"

* Now, in order to acquire the 7564 gold needed for your upgrades, Lord Emsworth, you would have to convert 30,256 shields to gold using the "wealth" production option

* Taking it one step further, you seem prepared to waste 30,256 shields that could have built about 400 cavs in order to upgrade your 160 horsemen (or was it only 62?)

Lord Emsworth, I absolutely congratulate you! As an economist you are without peer!

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Maybe its bad to let the thread go off topic but since the discussion is started anyway:

I do not agree with the notion that factories, and thus the Hover Ham are not worth it building! (though I admit the advantages are usually not that big)

Of course, this entire discussion is moot if you can win before you get to make serious use of IA tech. (duh) So we will ignore all games where this is the case and focus on games that are going to last into the modern age.

For the sake of this argument, I'll also assume the use of a tight (city size 12) city placement, as an indication of a general effort to be as efficient as possible.
Of course the situation is different if you restrict yourself to custom placement rules. And factories are worth more in wide placement, so it is more meaningful if I can show a factory is worth it in a size 12 city.
I'm also assuming a standard epic game, no mods.

So here is math.

The Hover Dam is 800 shields, thats 5 coal plants. So the hover is cheaper if you'd build 6 coal plants otherwise.
But if you keep into account that 5 separate builds generate more shield overrun than a single build, hover is even cheaper than 5 coal plants. In addition, you'll have no pollution and no 3gpt maintenance per plant.

A power plant does nothing without a factory, so the hover only is useful if you build at least 5 factories in your empire.

A factory is 240 shields
it represents 120 gold that would have been generated if you'd build wealth instead. (you'll need the economics tech to upgrade wealth to this)

cavalry and artillery is 80 shields
Infantry is 90 shields
Mobile Infantry is 110 shields
Modern armor is 120 shields
A tank and bomber is 100 shields


First lets take a look at unit production:
Assuming an average city (I'm only counting core cities for this) can produce 12 shields from mined grass and 12 from rails. Thats 24 shields A productive city will have some hills and bonus grass, so that could become 30 shields. A factory adds 15 to that. this cuts artillery and infantry production from 3 turns to 2 turns, and MI, MA, bomber and tank production from 4 turns to 3 turns. (saving 1 turn each time)

It would cost a 30 shields city 8 turns to build a factory. So it takes 24 turns with artillery and infantry and 32 turns with MI, MA, tanks and bombers to pay itself back.
You'd need 32 to 40 turns from the moment you start building a factory for it to be worth it.

Now lets look at it from a peaceful gold production PoV:
A factory in a 30 shield city produces 15 shields, worth 7 gpt in wealth, minus 3 for maintenance, this leaves 4 gpt from wealth.
38 turns building wealth at 30 spt is 570 gold
30 turns building wealth at 45 spt is 660 gold - 3*30 = 570 gold
So it takes 30 turns for the factory to pay itself back.
You'd need 38 turn from the moment you start building a factory for it to be worth it.

Payback time:
Since we assume a game that lasts into the modern age, it takes 13 tech from industrialization to get to the MA, with 4 turn research thats is 52 turns. So a factory easily has enough turns to pay itself back.
After that, the factory will only grant an advantage.

What is left is 30 shields cities:
5 of the cities Chamnix showed in post #31 could reach that number with rails. I think its not far fetched more than 5 can be found on most standard sized maps. Even small map can easily have 1 capital 1 FP and 4 first-tier cities. (maybe not a tiny map) On larger maps, its almost a certainty.

The Hover dam doubles the advantages for less cost than the factories. And it only gets better with each additional factory city you can get.

There certainly is some use to factories, but it hardly ever is anything to go crazy about. When I consider the usefulness of an improvement then I need to consider its usefulness with respect to the game that I am playing.

For example, if I am playing a diplo game I'll need one factory in order to build the UN. In a Spaceship game I'll get about 3-4 factories in order to cobble up the SS parts.

Whatever usefulness lies beyond those few factories is extremely little. (You did the math.) You can turn those factories to produce *Wealth.* But will that help me win the game earlier? No, in neither of these fast research cases it will. Will it help me to increase my score? Not really.

Or consider another situation, where I want to expand the military that I have upon entering the IA. I could go and spam the countryside with factories before eventually coming around to building additional troops. Or, I could invest the shield directly into troops without building any (or many) factories.

Stacking those two choices up against each other, sees me building many factories before troops only if I am going to need an ungodly amount of additional troops at some point in the future that is not now. What is more, if I really needed so many additional troops that factories would pay (I hardly ever do), I think I'd still rather shoot for turning off reasearch altogether in order to use the money that I'll make that way for upgrades.

 

[TheOverseer714]

If you are good enough to win before the IA, factories aren't of interest. For the rest of us, they are very handy. If you do use factories, Hoover Dam is a no-brainer. I will add that I only build factories in the core, if a factory can be built in 20 or so turns, it's a decent investment. If it takes much longer, it's a waste of shields that could be turned into units.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

- snip -

Ah, thank you. I'll certainly remember that should I ever be tempted to acquire the gold needed for upgrades through building *Wealth.*

Any more absurdities that I missed ?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

See what happens when you stop thinking.



You're doing it again.

I stated I was converting the gold into shields as per the "wealth" improvement, standard in the game. That is 4 shields produce 1 gold. So if you got 7564 gold, you multiply that by 4 and that then makes 30256.

What...Is...Wrong...With...You?

As I said to Phyrros, using money generated through *Wealth* for upgrading is an absurdity that simply did not cross my skull. And frankly, I don't have the slightest clue why you would need to bring up such absurdities in the first place.

Since you cant seem to convert simple concepts into the proper calculation, what would be the point.

Puts LE on "ignore"...

*Shrugs*

 

[Pyrrhos]

As I said to Phyrros, using money generated through *Wealth* for upgrading is an absurdity that simply did not cross my skull. And frankly, I don't have the slightest clue why you would need to bring up such absurdities in the first place.

I cannot speak for Meisen, but I would not be surprised to find that your own absurdities provoked it. You have an unfortunate knack of coming across as if the only way to play Civ is your way and that you "must" win every argument/debate by whichever means.

Now I am told that I am an attention-seeking troll. Since truth is always in the eyes of the Beholder and I am old, ugly and stupid, I know nothing will ever change that. Therefore, I try my best within the limitations set even if many seem to be aggravated when bested by a mere troll. So, learn to live with your shortcomings too!

 

[Othniel]

* The exchange rate is, atrociously, four (4) gold for one (1) shield when you cash rush or four (4) shields for one (1) gold if you set production to "wealth"

Actually, the exchange rate for Wealth is 1 shield for 1 gold.

A specialist farm, fully corrupt, produces 1 shield per turn. Set the production to Wealth. Voila! 1 spt turns into 1 gpt. Make 200+ such farms. Rinse and repeat. Behold the power.

As Lord Emsworth said, though, depending on Wealth production alone to fund your upgrades is absurd. Not that anyone WAS promoting such a practice, but it's worth repeating.

I cannot speak for Meisen, but I would not be surprised to find that your own absurdities provoked it. You have an unfortunate knack of coming across as if the only way to play Civ is your way and that you "must" win every argument/debate by whichever means.

I am so tired of reading these same sort of worn-out, ad hominem accusations that the Meisen-Pyrrhos tag team keeps on spitting out.

You guys keep on attempting to prove YOUR way of playing is superior. Fine. But you reject any empirical measures of in-game success. Score? Game Date at time of victory? Rubbish to you.

What's left to measure by? A game satisfaction index?

"I like Civ. Civ gives me warm fuzzies."

"No! The way I play Civ gives me MORE warm fuzzies than it gives you!"

 

[Chamnix]

Actually, the exchange rate for Wealth is 1 shield for 1 gold.

A specialist farm, fully corrupt, produces 1 shield per turn. Set the production to Wealth. Voila! 1 spt turns into 1 gpt. Make 200+ such farms. Rinse and repeat. Behold the power.

You get a 1 gpt minimum boost from producing wealth so you get 1 gpt from 1 spt, but I think the general conversion rate for shields to gold from cities producing more than 1 spt is 4:1 (or 2:1 once you research Economics).

(Unless of course you meant that specialist farms were the only cities that would ever be producing wealth - in that case, ignore me )