Montezuma Immortal Cookbook

[Grashopa]

It's funny how you play your segment thinking: "Oh, I feel I did fine and this is going to be a strong save" but then you face the realities

I enjoy facing reality!

 

[CivConVict]

What amazes me the most is that you guys never seem to have any problems with barbarians. Sure fog busting goes a long way, but even Combat I Warriors have very unreliable odds against Archers or Bears and occasionally die to Lions, Panthers or Warriors ... let alone Spearmen. If I don't have Archers on a map like this (lots of jungle) I almost always end up with barbarians pillaging my territory, because I lose a fog busting unit or two and once they are gone more units come through the same gap within 4-5 rounds.

Spoiler :

In Grashopa's save there's even a strip of land from which barbarians might take Calixtlahuaca and/or Tlaxcala without anything but a scout standing in their way. Am I missing something?

Anyway, if you could post a more detailed report on how you go about fog busting in a future cookbook (preferably not an Archipelago map ), I'd really appreciate it.

 

[GKey]

Yep more micro please. Turn# when got your first settler, etc.
Also I would highly appreciate if you could starting your turn go to Menu->Your Details and Put your nick before Monetzuma....:

That way your save will have your nick at the beginning of save name. Or just rename your save manually please.

 

[Fierabras]

I agree. I won't even post my save, because I has such bad luck against barb archers.

 

[vranasm]

@fierabras

as you can see I lost city to them and posted anyway...don't be shy! (I lost the city on 30% odds btw...)

 

[kossin]

What amazes me the most is that you guys never seem to have any problems with barbarians. Sure fog busting goes a long way, but even Combat I Warriors have very unreliable odds against Archers or Bears and occasionally die to Lions, Panthers or Warriors ... let alone Spearmen. If I don't have Archers on a map like this (lots of jungle) I almost always end up with barbarians pillaging my territory, because I lose a fog busting unit or two and once they are gone more units come through the same gap within 4-5 rounds.

In Grashopa's save there's even a strip of land from which barbarians might take Calixtlahuaca and/or Tlaxcala without anything but a scout standing in their way. Am I missing something?

Anyway, if you could post a more detailed report on how you go about fog busting in a future cookbook (preferably not an Archipelago map ), I'd really appreciate it.

Spoiler image please?

Many reasons. You can see a barb city... once barbs start settling cities on Immortal, they usually don't enter borders very much anymore.

Luck reliant... sometimes you'll get swarmed by barbs while someone else will see 2~3 barbs over the same time of period. Can be due to an AI unit taking the brunt of the damage in one save while dieing in another... it's all random. f.e.the America Deity University.

Experience... knowing where to put your units and when... it's a feeling. I've dealt with barbs on Deity with only warriors quite a few times. One of the more memorable was the Ragnar game where I totally got swarmed.

Try playing the same game a few times to get a feel when to push out and where... then try various games up to t50. After 50~100 games you'll fare better and best of all it takes 2~5 mins at most per game if you ignore the rest.

I agree. I won't even post my save, because I has such bad luck against barb archers.

A report maybe? Screenshot when barbs appeared with your warrior locations? We can't give you suggestions to improve your early game from that. Comparison is key imo.

 

[Fierabras]

I got swarmed by barbs and lost a couple of warriors in the jungle against archers, which delayed my REX too much. I did play it somewhat risky (not enough warriors before building settlers), so I know where I went wrong. Also:

Spoiler :

The civ south of me had build the Great Wall

I'll start again and see if I can do better. I'll replay my initial moves (settling) to offset the map knwoledge.

 

[GKey]

Here is mine.

Spoiler :

Settled 1SE on riverside ivory. Huge capital location with two wet corns (where did you get gems kossin ).
Settled copper/corn site in 2400BC.
Barracks -> Alt+Axes in both cities. Sooner we pacify JC - the better.

In my game I was and still am swarmed by barbs. But that's actually good, my axes got some free exp before going on JC.

Rome was defended by only 2 archers.

I have to confess. In offline game with such a capital I'd better pump settlers every 6 turns and settle all this excellent land around (And probably then got swarmed and owned by barbs).That what I would do in offline game. But here in cookbook I decided for early rush, just because it's more popular solution.

Not sure if it's good thing or an issue. On one hand I played not my original game, on the other hand, rush decision saved my ass from barbs. Plus early rush on aggressive neighbor has it merits ofc.

 

[CivConVict]

Many reasons. You can see a barb city... once barbs start settling cities on Immortal, they usually don't enter borders very much anymore.

Luck reliant... sometimes you'll get swarmed by barbs while someone else will see 2~3 barbs over the same time of period. Can be due to an AI unit taking the brunt of the damage in one save while dieing in another... it's all random. f.e.the America Deity University.

Experience... knowing where to put your units and when... it's a feeling. I've dealt with barbs on Deity with only warriors quite a few times. One of the more memorable was the Ragnar game where I totally got swarmed.

Try playing the same game a few times to get a feel when to push out and where... then try various games up to t50. After 50~100 games you'll fare better and best of all it takes 2~5 mins at most per game if you ignore the rest.

I don't know the mechanics exactly, but I don't think barbarian cities have any influence over the spawning rate of barbarian units outside their cultural borders. Nor should they reduce the probability of single barbarian units entering your territory aside from the general AREAAI_OFFENSIVE option. At least that's what I gather from DanF5771's posts and my experience.

I've played enough games without Archery to know it can be done, but in some of them it took me 5 or more tries simply to survive the 3n barbarian onslaught mostly intact. In the end it still was more about luck than having found a viable strategy. In some games (on marathon speed however) it didn't work at all.

 

[kossin]

@CivConVict
There are three phases:
Phase 1: barbs will roam and enter culture if they can attack directly/pillage
Phase 2: barbs aim for your cities/50% pillaging odds
Phase 3: barbs start settling down cities and don't actively pursue your cities anymore

I don't remember the exact timing for phase 3 on Immortal but it's somewhere around t50~60.
From the same thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7473286&postcount=16

Seeing as the cities will have 3 (4 on Deity) archers, that limits the number of roaming barbs.

 

[obsolete]

I'm going to end my turn a little pre-mature here, since I'm at a big decision point. I assume that's allowed?

Spoiler :

I started building Stonehenge for gold to support my UU, but then decided what the hell, if no one wants it, I'll save myself on obelisks when capturing all those cities.

I did make a dumb mistake and missed the opportunity to snipe a Roman worker while I was pillaging his lands. Sorry, I do play like a monarch newb sometimes! Then later I was commiting myself to attacking the capital after tricking the idiot to move all his archers into the wrong city. I decided to let the worker escape for a second time, in exchange for the capital.

It took me 2 turns of waves, but I've got the capital now (for good).

I have a barb hunter near my capital which is 3 exp short of stacking Medic 1 with Woody III to get 25% master healing.

 

[CivConVict]

@CivConVict
There are three phases:
Phase 1: barbs will roam and enter culture if they can attack directly/pillage
Phase 2: barbs aim for your cities/50% pillaging odds
Phase 3: barbs start settling down cities and don't actively pursue your cities anymore

I don't remember the exact timing for phase 3 on Immortal but it's somewhere around t50~60.
From the same thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7473286&postcount=16

Seeing as the cities will have 3 (4 on Deity) archers, that limits the number of roaming barbs.

I see, with 120 unowned tiles taken up by a 4 Archer city on Immortal, that leaves indeed little to no chance of units spawning randomly any more. Still, it would be interesting to see how you guys play through what you describe as phase 1 and 2.

 

[Grashopa]

The number of spawnbusters and how early you get them out is critical, as it really cuts down on the barbs. You want to keep them from spawning near your borders before 2200 BC when they rush the nearest city. In my game I built a spearman and walked him around taking out all the stragglers that didn't rush my cities.

 

[lymond]

@civconVict

For me it's about not letting barbs get near my borders. It can be map dependent, but if you have the right layout, I just set up warriors on hills outside my borders and let them pick off in-coming barb archers - keeping in mind the 5X5 spawn rule. Fortified warrior have pretty high odds against archers. I try to build 3 or 4 warriors after the first worker just for this purpose and usually don't bother fortifying the city since I"m building a settler at that point..

@obsolete

Then later I was commiting myself to attacking the capital after tricking the idiot to move all his archers into the wrong city.

I'd like to see that in action

 

[GKey]

I'd like to see that in action

There is another city before Rome. That was exactly what I did too.

 

[lymond]

There is another city before Rome. That was exactly what I did too.

I guess you park a jag or too outside the first city while sneaking your large stack around to the cap

 

[GKey]

I guess you park a jag or too outside the first city while sneaking your large stack around to the cap

Spoiler :

I DOWed and crossed border from SW. Stack was 3 turns from Rome and 2 turns from north city and 2 turns from east city. Moving forces by diagonal towards Rome I still was closer to these 2 cities. AI rush its archers to these cities leaving Rome lightly defended. On this map no additional tricks were needed.

 

[lymond]

I should not underestimate your sneakiness

 

[GKey]

Ha, kossin, just came to my mind

Spoiler :

Monty with his jaguars were desperately needed on previous non-resource map, while Mansa would be best in cottage paradise we got here.

 

[Kid R]

Haha, woody 2 jaguars.

Spoiler :

Second game in a row where the strongest approach is a rush only possible with the early UU!

Who says it's all about playing the map?