MOO2: How to make Feudalism work?

[QuixotesGhost]

I've love Dune, and as such always favor Feudalism when I play Moo2 - but it's very hard to overcome the research gap.

This is what I've been messsing around with recently.

Feudalism
Research -1
Ship Attack + 50
Ground Combat - 10
Spying +10
Rich Homeworld
Telepathic
Warlord

Blitz hard and fast obviously. I mainly rely on cruisers, getting my first up around turn 15-20. The first and second empires are relatively easy to kill, with +70 to attack (+ship attack and warlord bonus) missile and fighter tech pose little threat to me and I have the clear upper hand in beam wars. However around turn 60 - 80 my opponents start fielding early decent beam ships.

You know, Mass Drivers, Optronic Computers, Crews vetted through Space Academies, early shields, better armor... yada yada yada. Missles and fighters still don't scare me, but beams that can actually hit and do some decent damage do. Once these ships (spacestations to be more precise) hit the field I seem unable to grind them down through numbers. Mainly because my ships are very fragile.

I generally only research with vassal races because of my -1 research pick. So the techs I do research myself have to be carefully chosen and relatively cheap. What's my research plan? Should I bunker down for a bit and research a few key techs? I have great inherent espionage but its tricky to rely on it solely. I have more citizens and colonies and can generally outproduce my opponents but the -50% research penalty to feudalism hits hard.

I generally play with 5 races, average tech, average galaxy, impossible difficulty.

Big question - What military techs give me the most bang for my buck? And what are some good low-tech ship designs? Should I just start throwing missile boats at my enemies (note that most "missile boats" include fast-missile racks and merculites - very pricey techs for feudalists) ?

 

[vmxa]

Telepathic, feudal, aquatic, rich, +50 ship offense, omniscient or something like this is the fastest. You need the Omni to see the wormholes and locations to save time. Missiles only.

No real need for tech, make nuc missiles and grab. If you need an outpost, you know it in time to get it where you need it. Capture races will help you.

 

[QuixotesGhost]

Maybe I misunderstand some of the mechanics of the game but what's the point of missiles with +50 Ship attack? I thought missiles had a 100% chance to hit modified only by ECM (which reduce the chance to hit) and Scanners/ECCM(which reduce the effects of ECM)?

Is the point to use the 4 picks to get initiative?

I generally prefer beams. But I'd thought I'd see for myself. I ended up testing a cruiser with 12 x 2 Nuke Missile racks vs. a Cruiser with 12 Laser Cannons against the typical home-world defenses you'd see early in the game - A Starbase and two scouts.

Here's what I'd noticed:

- Beam Cruiser is significantly cheaper. I got it built 3 turns earlier.
- Nuke Cruiser seems to pack just enough firepower to take down a spacestation. Depending on how PD pans out it can go either way. Plus the AI loves to get anti-missile rockets real early.
- If you divert missiles to kill any additional ships you run the risk of not doing enough damage to the space station.
- Beam Cruiser seems pretty reliable, you take out additional ships on the first or second round before the station's nukes get close. Then you pick off the nukes and use your remaining lasers to pick at the station from range. It doesn't have the +attack to hit you reliably, but you have more than enough to hit it.
- Taking the Spacestation's nukes on the chin with nothing more than titanium often leaves you immobilized - if the other ships don't retreat, you're often losing the ship.




TBH, Beam Cruisers seem to be more reliable for soloing Spacestations than missile boats for a race that has sunk enough into +attack.

Is there something else I'm missing?

 

[vmxa]

Sorry I posted the wrong races Telepathic Warlord Trans Dimensional Omniscient Rich Feudal Repulsive. You do not want +50 attack. This race can take down a large impossible map in about 75 turns.

Telepathic, Tran dimensional, RHW, LHW, Industry+2, Feudal, Repulsive can do 26 or less on small map.

Of course you need a few things to go your way like locations of the races. There was a challenge on Atari site a few years back Axelfrog turned one in at 26 and it was beaten with one at 20 turns.

12 nukes with 2 shots will not have a problem with a star base at the start of the game. You can starve pop a bit to squeeze it out sooner and not lose pop with care.

 

[Zitron2000,8]

In case you like bit longer games, you might want to consider leaving +50 attack and taking +2 spying, added with telepathic spying bonus you should be able to get all ur science from enemies. Only techs u might consider researching urself would be +spying ones and even those ones wouldnt be that important

 

[Aeek]

Feudalism, -Research, Ship Attack + 50, Ship Defence +50, Transdimensional, Warlord.
Does that add up? Maybe -Spying, been too long.

Blitz with Frigates(only 3 PD lasers, undergunned for added dodge).
Charge and board that starbase, capture ships but beware self destruct.
An AI design is useful in your hands, or scrap it for the tech.

A space eel is deadly, a space crystal is toast.

Oh, and use the DOS exe, the windows one always crashes since battles take so long.

 

[vmxa]

I don't have any problems with crashes in the windows version. Well, I do get a lock up now and then, but not bad for a game that was meant for DOS. I use Mo'Slo to avoid the sticky mouse, may have an effect on crashes.

 

[TheArchduke]

I gotta admit I don´t like those cookie cutter races at all. I prefer to stick with the vanilla races as they are quite balanced. (Gnolams and Sakkras are a bit tough..)

Else Moo2 becomes too easy.

 

[Murky]

Feudalism sucks big time. It's only useful if you're playing a small map, blitzing game. The only way to make it work well in general is to mod the game so that's balanced with unification.

If I were redesigning moo2, I'd just take it out and replace with it Corporatism. Same principles apply, you would just have a more competitive version of Feudalism so that it wouldn't have the huge research penalty.

 

[slinky360]

Unification is the best form of goverment. Ive often tryed to make fendalism work but the 50% loss to science is just to high a cost. The other goverments can offer an edge early on in the game in terms of there gains and pick values, but as soon as you can research the tech to upgrade your gov, you cant compete with Galactic Unification.

 

[vmxa]

Well I have won by conquest in large maps on impossible with fued in 72 turns. So I do not buy it is for small maps only. It is true a small map is easier and less boring.

slink360, the science penalty is no concern, you do no research anyway. Use Tele and Fued and take them down.

 

[slinky360]

I only play on huge maps on impossible. Surely research is important as you would never mop the floor with all the races in the galaxy? In a long game, your 50% penalty to research with get you hammered by the other races. You would be running around with lasers/fusion beams and they would have far supperior weapons. I know you get tech from captured worlds, but you cant chose the tech you get.

 

[vmxa]

I have not tried a huge map, but I doubt it would matter much. They are not going to have a lot of tech in say 100 turns. Each race you take down will be making ships to use on the next one.

How fast is mostly a function of the worm hole locations. You take TransD so you can gp faster and Omni so you know where to go. Toss in Warlord and you going smash them quickly. You do not use PreWarp.

 

[slinky360]

To be honest i never really gave fendalism a fair go. I will give the race picks you suggested a try on a huge galaxy and see how it goes.

 

[BasketCase]

Probably spying would be the best way to get it to work.

Back when MOO 1 was my favorite game--errr, actually, it was my favorite game for about six years running, so that doesn't tell you a whole heck of a lot --one of my most interesting games was the first (and only) time I ever played as the Darloks (the Spy race).

The game went in a completely unexpected direction. It was a fairly large map, and at no time did I ever have more than four stars. I was smack in the center, surrounded on every side by empires many times the size of mine.

Yet they were all powerless against me. In this kind of game, technology is King, and I was able to maintain a strong lead all game. So probably you could make a go of it by being a Feudal Spy kind of build.

Personally, I never tried Feudal in MOO2, because I was always about being a brainy kind of species.

 

[vmxa]

Moo2:

Spying would depend on so many things, like what races and traits are in the game. At impossible, races will have several traits above the allowed level.

Anyway you cannot steal, what they do not have and they won't have much early in the game. A well played, good layout warlord feudal race will kill off races before they can learn much.

 

[vmxa]

8, impossible, large galaxy, normal tech, normal galaxy age, random events on.

Telepathic, Warlord, Trans Dimensional, Omniscient, RHW, Feudal, Repulsive

T0 - move all sci workers to industry. Design Cruiser as NO comp, 9 two shot nukes and extended fuel cells. This should take 19 turns to build.Note I make the missile array as 1, 2, 2, 2, 2. Design Destroyer as the same, except two 2 shot nukes (4 missiles). Design Scout with 1 nuke. Start CA on HW, send out colony ship to Abbith(?), not sure of name now, send out scouts.

T2(?) colonize planet and set to build DD (destroyer). Now once scouts have done all they can send back to refit.

T15(?) not sure when I did this, but around this time you can buy the CA (cruiser). One thing that is variable is when to refit the scouts. I found that sooner is better as it is usually needed to allow other ships to retreat. You also can not take down SB (star base) with just a 9 shot cruiser. Sent CA to Pund and capture it.

Txx (did not note exactly when but before T18)

Kill Silicoids frigates and retreated to Pund to await the DD and DE.

DE (scout or frigate) and DD and CA all to Cryslon. I started a frigate on Pund as a place holder. You will need an OP (outpost soon). Capture CRY and srt OP. (Silicoids eliminated)

T18 buy DD and send to Pund to Cryslon. Now refit scout that was not already refit.

T22 OP done, start DD, send all to Trillar.

T24 OP on Caelueb (SP), send ships on to Trillar.

T25 DD done on Cry, sent to Trillar.

T30 Capture Trillar, switch Cry to OP, send fleet to Vagn.

T31 Capture Vagn (Trils eliminated).

T33 Finished Biosphere on Draco, start CA. Note in a tough game, you would not want to build anything other than ships and outpost.

T34 OP on Vij, send fleet to Gnol, buy OP on Abbith.

T35 Send 2nd fleet to Hastun (can read my notes on this name)to OP.

T40 Took Nazin and last planet on Gnol.

T41 Elim Gnol

T42 Elim Darlok, capture Poseidons.

T43 Buy OP on Abbith, send to Lar, fleet to Lar, OP on Cry is done. Better planning could probably reduce delays here, but I was lazy.

T44 OP sent to Zibbat, fleet to Zib. I am not sure now which planet this is, but one place I send an OP, I did not look to see what was there and boom, no planets, not even gas. This wasted more time as I had to send them some place else to reach Klackons or who ever I was after.

T50 Capture Aden.

T53 Capture Orf (?), I hope that is the correct name, it is all I have in my notes.

T56 Capture Katab.

T57 capture Liuce, defeat Sssla fleet, block (not sure what I meant here). I know one race had a few ships and a BB (battleship) and I was trying to ensure that they did not do any damage.

T58 Elim Klac, learned Research Labs via my research. I have had a few tech from captured planets, not important. I got Battle Pods from Kholden and designed a new CA that I built on Cry. Sent OP to Draco.

T62 Elim Saks, fleet to Draco.

T71 Capture Fieras.

T72 Capture Hycreles (name not clear), capture Que. Game over. This is not a totally complete log, but at least gets the concept across. I was making ships on most planets and even cranked out a few SB so I could make cruisers. I was too lazy to stay on top and buy some things when I could have. IOW, this likely could have been done faster. With this map, two finds where close at hand, but no splinter colonies and no leaders. Now that I think about it I did get an offer for a fighter, but could not afford him at the time. I got colony leaders late in the game. I am not sure I assigned them all, it is not uncommon for me to see the end coming an ignore that aspect.

 

[vmxa]

So I think it is fair to say that you can make Feudal work and in fact better than nearly any trait. Like I mentioned before, I have seen posted games on the old Atari board were large maps were beaten in much less than 70 turns.

I doubt other races could do that in a conquest only fashion, no demanding systems.

 

[Murky]

So I think it is fair to say that you can make Feudal work and in fact better than nearly any trait. Like I mentioned before, I have seen posted games on the old Atari board were large maps were beaten in much less than 70 turns.

I doubt other races could do that in a conquest only fashion, no demanding systems.

Sure, it works against the relatively weak AI of MOO2. Will it work in MP when wormholes are turned off and omni is banned?

 

[vmxa]

What does MP have to do with any thing that has been discussed? I do not recall that being mentioned any place. I think it is a given that MP is different, about .001 of Moo2 players ever played MP.