Moonraker

[woopdeedoo]

I like everything. I still reckon the best course of action would be to take Hastings, sue for peace with England and then consolidate what's left of our army and take out Germany. All the other points on uni's and mishes etc etc look good to me.

WRT the liberalism race and popping GE, why not burn him on TM (once we get Nat). That way, we get a single GP GAge rather than having to use 2 for a GAge.

 

[vranasm]

@woop

we have marble so burning GE on building we have bonus is always questionable. Granted the GE pop could take it from 8 turns build into 1T build though.

With the amount of cities we have the hammer and commerce bonus of GA will probably surpass anything we could do with any great person in total numbers (of course in particular cities settling or bulbing will beat the output, but if we look at the benefit from the point of view of total production then GA surely will be stronger)

I am almost inclined to burn great persons to produce TM quicker, chaining golden ages will surely be something very good for us at this point.

If we aim for state property (and there probably isn't reason not too) we can preimprove land with workshops ;-), for example any free plains tile could get one. We're still probably a bit off guilds and chemistry and of course communism itself, but if we chain the golden ages + OU I think it will come very quickly.

 

[woopdeedoo]

Well, I guess if we burn 2 GPs on a GAge, then the TM will finish quicker as well, allowing us to "chain" GAges.

 

[FiveRings]

I have only two minor suggestions: (1) although Prague will be busy with the U & OU, it might be better to emphasize the building of missionaries of non-resident religions (I guess they might be used also to build monasteries till those become obsolete, the 10% increase in bulbs in our SSC, however short-timed, is not negligible) as some of those might not be successful in spreading the religion (potential sites to grow the missionaries are those with excess uni and lib and LH). Of course, if it is considered that the investment in monasterires in Prague is not efficient, then this suggestion falls; and (2) it might be better to build a defensive unit or two in York to free the phants around London without compromising the city's defence too much.

I don't understand the advantages of having two GAs "chained" as compared to just have those, but seem to agree with V that there are good reasons not to sacrifice a GrEng for a marble-supported TM (maybe additional info on the tech race could help to make the decision).

Good luck, Cam!

 

[Cam_H]

OK - thanks all.

War Elephants are arguably our best defensive as well as offensive unit at the moment.

I agree with the view that we should push those science multipliers in Prague - so Hindu and Christian Monasteries make sense to me if and when available.

At the moment I wouldn't 'bank' on either Golden Age - there's no guarantee on Liberalism > Nationalism + Taj, and if we pop Great Scientists or a Great Prophet then I'd prefer to use them in other ways. Still - good to get confirmation if we get a Great Merchant.

Thanks again for all of your input.

 

[FiveRings]

Cam, most of the latest Churchill attacks were Pikes. I think Pikes are able to smash any phants in any position (if I am not wrong that city defense bonuses don't apply to mounted units that don't receive defense bonuses).

 

[Cam_H]

"The best laid schemes of mice and men go oft awry"

Pathetic and all, but have made only incremental progress with our game (two turns).

I couldn't get CivFanatics to load yesterday (server was either down or "busy"), and I was reluctant to play without checking this thread for any extra input from the roster. Furthermore, I couldn't get onto the computer for much of the day as Mrs. Cam had work-related stuff that she had to deal with, and on top of that I had to dart off to see an ill family member for a few hours.

What I can say is that we'll be about 50% chance of getting Hastings (three promoted Protective Longbows, a Pike, and a Catapult) and I suspect we will need to be extraordinarily lucky to be able to 'fight on' afterward if we do indeed take this city.

The world map trade with Roosevelt shows Russia in the north with 9 cities, America in the middle with 7, and Japan in the south with poor map coverage but looks like about 7 cities there. America has two Gems resources, so we just need to arrange our trades so we can simultaneously possess two sources of Gems at some point and address our 'Diamonds are Forever' variant requirement. If you're particularly curious to see the map, I can't see why you can't make the exchange of world maps with Roosevelt with the 1200AD game given that this is one of the first things I did in the turnset.

Depending upon how my day goes, I'll try and get this thing dealt with when I get home from work.

 

[vranasm]

buying your wife laptop can fix a lot of things, trust me I know what I am talking about ;-)

hears good the situation. well except the Hastings problem ofc, but the layout of the other continent is very favorable to us.

don't forget to kill Bismarck and milk whatever you could get from Church for peace (I would prefer machinery the most) ;-).

As I see it woop's task will be to bring us to another military tech advantage after your TS ;-).

 

[Cam_H]

This is good ... 4 turns in and I already want to refer to the roster!

Temple of Solomon shrined, Hastings is ours, Oxford Uni' next turn, and we're in a Liberalism race with America.

Churchill wants Peace for Peace + Compass + 60 + 3/turn ... I'd take it and refocus on Germany ... but that's just one view.

Opinions?

[Edit] Sorry - I should point out that this is the start of the turnset (Hastings battle aside) and cities haven't been micro-ed. [/Edit]

 

[woopdeedoo]

this is good ... 4 turns in and i already want to refer to the roster!

Temple of solomon shrined, hastings is ours, oxford next turn, and we're in a liberalism race with america.

Churchill wants peace for peace + compass + 60 + 3/turn ... I'd take it and refocus on germany ... But that's just one view.

Opinions?

Do EEEETTTT!!

 

[vranasm]

checking the save.

I tend to agree to the peace with churchill for compass and some gold.

We can have lib in around 5 turns easily, so I would go full in

I would tend to do some things other way at places, but we don't need to agree with everything... Just maybe Munich...2x bananas not worked...

vienne could build something more useful (imo) then Uni, be it Jewish mish, worker or even settler for those 2 spots I mentioned earlier.

I like the fail gold on AW and ND in China.

Since the northern army has some WE's still able to move I would declare bismarck this turn and move our troops at his borders simultaneously with the peace probably.

 

[Cam_H]

Turnset summary from 1240AD to 1320AD:

I did settle for Peace with Churchill as per the deal. He is down to four cities ... somehow still doing OK with tech'. Oh, and we are his 'worst enemy' too.

We popped a Great Scientist out of Prague who's sleeping. I'd be inclined to merge him into Prague, but the Golden Age option's still there.

We got Liberalism's freebie and took Nationalism. Guangzhou is working on the Taj Mahal, which will get a couple of chops in a turn or two.

Berlin is up for a Great Person next turn, with 43% chance of a Great Engineer.

Beijing has only 4 turns to go on Angkor Wat, so watch that city in case it actually completes it. Possibly we could swap it with Notre Dame in Le Chiffre, and have Le Chiffre working on Angkor Wat instead.

6 or 7 turns to Astronomy. Our first Caravel's come out of London, and it's just begun its voyage to the east toward Russia.

Germany is dead - we took Cologne (Cows-Fish). Still some unit movement points left in this turn. Our 'northern army' got trapped by English borders (Open Borders with England's not an option at the moment) and a mountain, so we made a mish-mash SoD from here-and-there instead.​

Pre-turn | 1200AD

I aimed to stick fairly tightly to the PPP posted earlier and generally supported by the roster.

The only doubt was the use of the out of Prague toward the end of the turnset, that was most likely going to be a Great Scientist (merge, bulb, or Golden Age?).

I also added some ‘thematic’ city names with Bond villains in mind.

Added some Scientists in Prague and Beijing, and bumped the tech’ rate up to 40%, which would get us to Liberalism in fair time provided we took some gold from Hastings and any other city we captured. Some cities got put on ‘fail gold’ Wonder production.

As discussed, we took the WM (aka “World Map&#8221 deal with Roosevelt revealing an apparently fairly even distribution of land on the other continent (Russia better placed than the others?), and America’s two Gems;

Spoiler :

Turn 1 | 1210AD

Amsterdam: Library > Jewish Missionary
Frankfurt: Granary > Forge
York: Axe > Catapult

Great Prophet; Muhammad Shah (Eighteenth Century Mughal Emperor of India) is born in Beijing and makes his merry way to Shanghai for the eventual shrining of the Temple of Solomon:

Spoiler :

Rearrange Beijing and send a Warrior over to Venice that was ungarrisoned.

Turn 2 | 1220AD

Our SoD gets attacked by an English Catapult that dies to one of our War Elephants.

Monte Carlo: Catapult > Catapult
Prague, Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou, Hamburg, and Berlin are all whipped for their Universities.
Largo gets a Granary whip.
Munich gets a Library whip.

Hastings is sighted; three Protective Longbows, a Pike, and a Longbow on an adjacent tile. It could get messy for us.

The Temple of Solomon is shrined, and pulls in 17/turn and 2/turn.

Drop tech’ down to 0% to make the most of a few turns of binary before we get Oxford Uni’ built.

ibt

I’m not sure the game should do this, but we’re told that; Catherine has built the Hagia Sophia.

Turn 3 | 1230AD

Philosophy > Liberalism

Prague: University > Oxford University
Steel Jaw Guy: Jewish Missionary > Jewish Missionary
Monte Carlo: Catapult > Catapult
Shanghai: University > Market
Beijing: University > Angkor Wat (fail )
Guangzhou: University > Notre Dame (fail )
Hamburg: University > Christian Missionary
Largo: Granary > Forge
Berlin: University > Hindu Missionary
Munich: Library > Forge

Hastings is bombed down to 13%.

Roosevelt has both Education and Philosophy.

ibt

Roosevelt adopts Mercantilism and therefore could slingshot Economics with Liberalism or be driven by the free Great Merchant that he by-passes Liberalism completely?

Turn 4 | 1240AD

Le Chiffre: Catapult > Stable
York: Catapult > Axe
Prague gets an Oxford University whip

Hastings down to 0% defence, and units go in. Aside from losing a War Elephant at 61%, the battle goes with percentages, and we take Hastings at the loss of three Catapults and the abovementioned War Elephant. For his side, Churchill picks up a Great General, and we negotiate peace.

Spoiler :

Judaism is successfully spread in Le Chiffre.

Turn 5 | 1250AD

We start getting the notices that we’re nearing the Domination population point.

Our units in Hastings are stuck – we can’t get open borders with England and can’t go over Mountains.

Prague: Oxford University > Harbor
Monte Carlo: Catapult > Catapult
Kill Hat Guy: Lighthouse > Forge

With Oxford in and the race for Liberalism possibly on, 100% with a run through of all cities with Libraries running two Scientists. We can get Liberalism in two.

Turn 6 | 1260AD

Steel Jaw Guy: Jewish Missionary > Jewish Missionary
Monte Carlo: Catapult > Catapult
Chengdu: Library > Worker

Turn 7 | 1270AD

Spoiler :

… and we take Nationalism.

Geneva: Christian Missionary > Worker
Berlin: Hindu Missionary > Market
Guangzhou: Notre Dame (interrupt) > Taj Mahal
Prague pops a Great Scientist; Antony van Leeuwenhoek (Seventeenth Century Dutch microbiologist). I’m very inclined to merge him into Prague, but there’s been talk of the need for a Golden Age.
Killer Hat Guy gets a Forge whip.

Science back down to a moderate 40% and we pursue Machinery.

Turn 8 | 1280AD

Monte Carlo: Catapult > Catapult
Killer Hat Guy: Forge > Library
Judaism is successfully spread to Munich.
Blofeld gets its Courthouse whipped.
Science tweaked down to 30%.

Having scraped together an invasion force, we declare on Germany.

Spoiler :

Cologne has two Longbows, two Catapults, and two Macemen. We should be OK.

Turn 9 | 1290AD

Machinery > Optics

Prague: Harbor > Maceman
Steel Jaw Guy: Jewish Missionary > Wealth
Monte carlo: Catapult > Maceman
Amsterdam: Worker > Jewish Temple
Le Chiffre: Stable > Horse Archer
Hamburg: Christian Missionary > Maceman
Blofeld: Courthouse > Granary

Turn 10 | 1300AD

Amsterdam: Jewish Temple > Barracks
Christianity spread successfully into Prague.
Prague: Maceman (interrupt) > Christian Monastery
York gets its Maceman whipped.
London gets its Courthouse whipped.
Steel Jaw Guy: Wealth (interrupt) > Worker

Cologne’s defences down to 28%.

ibt

Roosevelt is the first to circumnavigate the globe.

Turn 11 | 1310AD

Optics > Astronomy

Monte Carlo: Maceman > Maceman
Chengdu: Worker > Worker
York: Maceman > Maceman
London: Courthouse > Caravel (whipped immediately)
Munich gets a Forge whip.
Vienna gets a University whip.

We attack Cologne, and things ‘take a bit of a dip’ for us. We lose a Catapult and three War Elephants, a War Elephant and a Horse Archer retreat, but we take out a Longbow and two Macemen.


Turn 12 | 1320AD

A Barbarian Horse Archer appears out of the fog of war to our south east, so we send a Maceman to hopefully take it out of action.

Vienna: University > Jewish Temple
Monte Carlo: Maceman > Maceman
Geneva: Worker > Worker
Zurich: Forge > Barracks
Nanjing: Library > Worker
Le Chiffre: Horse Archer > Notre Dame (fail )
Munich: Forge > Jewish Temple
London: Caravel > Caravel

Germany is out;

Spoiler :

Killer Hat Guy gets a Library whip.
Hastings gets a Library whip.

Lots to say, but firstly there are a number of units that have been given ‘go to’ orders. Generally military units are heading north. I’ve got a Hindu Missionary heading for Prague, and a surplus Christian Missionary that I thought could go to Beijing for a Monastery build. There’s a mistake in that one of the Workers in Monte Carlo right now is heading to the south east – it should be going to the Grassland next to Shanghai’s Cows. Le Chiffre is working a lot of Mines, but it could be growing its population further by working Farms instead so it can also run an Engineer and maybe Workshop the Plains. In order to get a border pop in York, it could put a citizen into a specialist role instead of working a tile. I was also thinking that Roosevelt will trade us his World Map for 60 which probably has information on England now that they've met.

woopdeedoo << Up
vranasm << On Deck
FiveRings
Cam​

 

[vranasm]

@Cam

looks really great, just a question, why we build still troops? I saw couple of Maces.

Another point I have is why we employ so many GS's in Prague instead of working those cottages?

Glad we got rid of Germany unhappy ;-).

I still am in favor of starting the GA ;-)

I would really like to emphasize the need of switching cities into building wealth directly, we need to get our slider to 100% sustain and I think we start to run out of useful builds into builds with doubtful value.

There is barbarian Horse Archer in the spot I had in mind (fish+awesome tundra surrounging).

I would build 2 more settlers, maybe couple more workers, but cities should quickly switch into building wealth directly.

Btw I forgot earlier that we actually have pretty good temples (40H instead of 80H) so maybe they are still worth the shot (jewish ones of course most)

 

[Cam_H]

vranasm,

Thanks for the feedback.

Just some replies to your questions/points;

On the troops:

I just opted to continue to churn units out of Monte Carlo given its multipliers, although I should point out that for much of the turnset this city was working Farms more so than Mines and growing its population up. I went with more Catapults initially to at least replenish what we'd lost in the case that hostilities re-opened with Churchill - that is, at least we'd have 'some' siege on hand. Once we got Machinery, I went with Maces out of Monte Carlo with the view that these 5XP units can be upgraded to City Raider II Rifles one day.

York is a different case. Bismark had a Settler party of an Axe, a Spear, and a Settler north of York, and he had a Longbow parked on his Copper Mine to the south of York (albeit closer to Berlin). I used the War Elephants we had in these parts for attacking cities, leaving the area largely devoid of troops ("Defenders"! ). I was working on an Axe there initially (which would match Bismark's Axe + Spear if he opted to attack York) when Machinery came in and bumped the production up to a Mace. The current unit build was pretty much 'insurance' in case he headed for London instead, or York could whip out a third unit to make any possible invasion by Bismark a certain failure. It's just become a non-issue with the capture of Cologne.

On Prague's citizens:

Basically I am trying to get Astronomy done as quickly as possible in light of income. At the moment a Scientist will yield a better immediate return than a Cottage or Hamlet, but I'd consider swapping back to those better food-yielding tiles once Astronomy was 'in' or 'in next turn'.

On builds:

I hear what you're saying on buildings of dubious/minor value. I'm certainly thinking 'pretty well' everywhere should get a Courthouse, Granary, and Forge, and in most cases a Library at least gives the option of running a few Representation-fuelled Scientists in hybrids with good food haul.

I'm all for Markets in large cities with good commerce hauls, Holy Cities, and Farms, and if a city is choking to the point of stagnation I'll consider an Aqueduct. Harbors are new to our build queues, and while we have The Great Lighthouse and about to get Astronomy (assuming we stick with it) then these can be tossed into the mix where possible.

Beyond that - it's a bit 'case-by-case', but at the moment ... if in doubt; build Wealth to grow and Workers/Settlers if at 'happy cap'/'all decent tiles worked and specialists run' might be a reasonable policy for us. As noted, 'fail gold' from Wonders is still an important potential source of cash, although the payout timing can't be guaranteed.

Barbarian Horse Archer

I noted that too. I thought that Trireme and our cultural borders between them covered the spawnbusting, but obviously not! I've got a Maceman who was available just east of Monte Carlo heading that way to confront the Horse Archer, but Largo might consider preparing to whip out a Spear or War Elephant to be safe.

Workers and Settlers

I built four Workers during this turnset and have four more currently under production.

With Astronomy around the corner, we can review the value of settling some (very!...) less-than-great coastal spots such as; the Cows area west of Zurich, the area where that Barbarian Horse Archer is, and the tile one north of the Copper in the same zone. There's also a lot of room between Munich and Guangzhou under jungle for a fair non-coastal city.

 

[FiveRings]

I have returned very late yesterday night from a 3-day trip, so could only read the posts. i think Cam's TS has improved our situation a lot, thanks, Cam!

One thing I am curious about, though, is Cam's going for the Machinery instead of Gunpower. I guess that our being relatively secure and the variant rules might have prompted this in the stead of going directly to MilTrad, but then why get Nationalism and not go directly to Machinery, as suggested by V?

 

[vranasm]

@FR

sorry I am a bit confused with the last paragraph of yours? What have you on mind?

Nationalism was clear choice from Lib and we couldn't risk delaying to selftech Machinery to take PP instead.
I would never ever take Machinery from Lib. Machinery is usually pickup tech you get for Philo/Paper/Edu.
What I had here on mind was getting Machinery from Churchill through war, but due to army size and composition we couldn't milk enough war success to get something better then Compass

 

[Cam_H]

I'm not sure I understand either. I thought that Nationalism > Taj was more or less agreed upon as laid out in my PPP.

Gunpowder was 'next best' as far as I'm concerned, but in order to get our economy in shape (once again! ) or at least propelled along a bit, a Golden Age through the Taj Mahal seems sensible to me. For what it's worth, I'm hardly concerned with Churchill other than one day we've got to finish him off, and in the meantime we should just protect our border cities in case of an unlikely DoW on his part. Maybe that's why I more-or-less discounted the importance of Gunpowder relative to perhaps others on the roster?

We can still use our Great Scientist to bulb almost all of Printing Press if that's considered a better move than the other options. I'd still merge him into Prague, but I can live with either a Golden Age or a Printing Press bulb.

 

[vranasm]

I think everyone already knows, but to me we should really launch the GA. It's probably the best situation to do it.

 

[woopdeedoo]

Ok so I "got it". Tbh, I'm not quite sure how to proceed. We can trade Liberalism to Roosy for Theo+Feudalism+180. Not sure if want. Also, out GPs. We have the GA, the GS and soon (probably) a GE. Bulb, GA or merge. These are the interesting questions. Are we going to modernise our army (we are already waaayyy stronger than Churchill) and reDoW England? Take over the entire continent? We clearly have to settle the two crummy cities in the wondrous tundra down South. I would also consider building another settlement in the Jungle. We need to do what we can to meet Russia and get the Defensive Pact done. Can't remember what tech is required to satisfy this. I assume we will need to switch out of our religion. Catherine is a religious lady, you know, and we will need her to really like us.

[EDIT]On that note, a buddy is visiting and I will be on wine routes and stuff this whole weekend so will only be able to post PPP and play on Monday[/EDIT]

 

[FiveRings]

Sorry, I have forgotten that we get Nationalism thru Liberalism with the aim to build the Taj. I rarely go - or can get to the TM - that way in my games.

About the GA /GrSc/bulbing issue: I am OK with whatever you prefer. I seem to underestimate GA and bulbing in my games, but for no obvious reasons.