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Moonraker

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by Cam_H, Sep 13, 2011.

  1. Habitus

    Habitus Chieftain

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    lurker's comment: Of course the tile 2E could change things again since its unforested, as could the hut if it gives AH/Fishing/Agriculture as a tech :)
     
  2. woopdeedoo

    woopdeedoo Chieftain

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    So, then we SIP.

    Tech Agri>AH>Mining (or fishing?)>BW.
    Build warrior>worker>warrior? What about SH?
     
  3. Cam_H

    Cam_H Chieftain

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    Worker first, and Stonehenge only after we get out a Settler at least, I'd suggest.
     
  4. FiveRings

    FiveRings Chieftain

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    ... and mining after HA so that the worker has something to work on ...
     
  5. woopdeedoo

    woopdeedoo Chieftain

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    So then tech as per previous post but build worker>warrior(for growth and explore)>settler>SH. That suit everybody?
     
  6. FiveRings

    FiveRings Chieftain

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    I'd rather build two warriors before the settler, but all of this depends very much on where we land after we start moving ... if we start moving.

    I will not be able to play and might not have access to my computer on 21-24, 26-01, as well as - but not sure for now - 05-08. So, if my turn doesn't arrive by the end of today, I'd rather skip till 2 October, if you don't mind, than play without much thinking and consultation.
     
  7. Cam_H

    Cam_H Chieftain

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    Cross-post with FiveRings

    I'm fine with that. [Edit] woopdeedoo's plan [/Edit]

    Squeezing out another / two / three Warriors before Stonehenge works for me. The cap' will benefit from a garrison, and a bit of anti-Barb' spawnbusting won't hurt. [Edit] Agree with FiveRings in that more Warriors would be of benefit [/Edit]
     
  8. woopdeedoo

    woopdeedoo Chieftain

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    Cool stuff. I will play in an hour or so...
     
  9. woopdeedoo

    woopdeedoo Chieftain

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    Played my TS! The following happened:

    We popped a number of huts. Got 2 maps, a total of 141:gold: and 3 (!!!) Scouts, two of whom got devoured by ferocious lions! I have discovered gold resources and one of them belongs to Mao Zedong! Luckily, one of them is really nearby us. I haven't found the gems.

    Buddhism was found in 3200BC. Don't know who found it. Got two warriors and a worker out, settler almost done. Teched along our path and am halfway through BW. We have met, as previously mentioned, Mao Zedong and also Bismarck.

    Here are some screenshots:

    Our opponents:





    Where the gold is at:







    And what we know of the world (geographically speaking):





    And finally the save:
     

    Attached Files:

  10. woopdeedoo

    woopdeedoo Chieftain

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    My comments on what was a peaceful early set:

    Thanks to the large amount of scouts we got, I managed to do a lot of scouting! HA! Sad about 2 being chowed by barb lions but they came out of nowhere on the IBT. I am sorry about that. We are quite well set to go SH after the settler finishes. We will be able to chop some of it out as well. Considering the non-religious peeps in this game, it may be worthwhile going for an early religion. Maybe Judaism?

    After BW we definitely MUST get fishing in! We have so many nice seafoods around! Other than that, I'm relatively satisfied with it all...
     
  11. vranasm

    vranasm Chieftain

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    you got very nice land around.

    most natural feels going with the settler 1SE of horses in the east with FP and horses 1st ring, gold 2nd ring.

    from that place another south for ivory, wheat, spice and cows.

    then another another wheat+cows+hills
    and finally fish+gold+fur to block west land.

    then you can backfill the west.
    To me it seems like this is rex map.
     
  12. FiveRings

    FiveRings Chieftain

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    Thanks, W, I have got the save. Some rough indications about the area where the two scouts were killed might be helpful.
    My PPP:
    General assumptions:
    we are going to move quite slowly along the tech line, even after we get the gold, if we don't start using the seafood or start cottageing. We do have a lot of land to compete for with only Mao close to us, so we either get as much as we can from it, or will have a very powerful neighbour next door. This makes me lean more to teching military techs like IW or HBR and an early war with the UU or HAs. It will depend a lot on whether we got a convenient copper tile or not. I'd delay fishing as the development of seafood when not done at the start will further delay us.
    I was very tempted to get the second city somewhat further to the NE to get also the cows in the fat cross, but have to cobcede that the placement suggested by V is the most reasonable one. As to the next, I would wait to see the BW revelation first, but - as of now - V again is right on top.
    So:
    Tech: continue BW, then IW or HBR
    Production after settler: a couple more warriors, a worker and a second settler from Brabante, while trying to build the SH in the second city (but almost sure I won't get it).
    Settle : 1 SE of horses, if I come to it - spices and cow.
    Scouts: continue recon of NE but send the second one to look at the black tiles in already researched area and help keep Barbs a bit off.

    I'll play tomorrow evening so the formulation of your suggestions within the next 12 hours would be greatly appreciated, thanks for the understanding.
     
  13. Cam_H

    Cam_H Chieftain

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    Thanks for the turnset woopdeedoo - great reconnaissance has helped a lot, and our Goldfinger objective appears to be relatively straightforward already. :D

    Although I said that I won't discuss city placement, I'm fine with the proposed site adjacent to the Horses. I was for a while also considering settling on the Floodplains for the four-way split, but can see both the 'cons' as well as the 'pros' of that move.

    Not wishing to throw a 'spanner in the works', but I'd put The Wheel (Chariots) and Pottery (whip-friendly Granary, Cottages) in the mix sooner rather than later. If we're going the Horse Archer route, we may as well get Archery. Given the Ivory (and that in Warlords we don't require HBR for War Elephants) we could alternately consider a War Elephant / Catapult based invasion of China, and 'rapid expansion' in the lead-up as vranasm suggests.

    I thought that we'd 'chop out' / 'whip into' Stonehenge in the Capital once Bronze Working was in and we knew where we stood in terms of Copper.

    Please feel free to rename the cities if you get any 007-ish inspirations!

    Best of luck. :)
     
  14. vranasm

    vranasm Chieftain

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    well don't want to say it's impossible, but when I look at the map, I see that you could have around 8-9 cities just from your own settling.

    You will have hard time up to 1 AD to stay above 0% slider as is... you will have soon get into thinking from where you get commerce.

    I could see a case for TW, fishing, but then surely Writing asap. The gold in city 2 should help a bit, but don't forget that you need to build monument (which you have luckily already access to) and then wait 10 turns for the border pop.

    There could be really some hard landing before you get commerce going and that should help a bit FV to your techs decision.
    So definitely forget IW and HBR, concentrate on getting some commerce going.

    TW = commerce trade routes
    Fishing = coast commerce
    Writing = libraries, which will suit the land.

    I would go with this order probably.

    The distances towards the south where you will put the line against Mao's expansion will be pretty costly.
     
  15. FiveRings

    FiveRings Chieftain

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    Thanks for the comments, Cam!

    I gave pottery some thought - I like it immensely as a huge growth multiplier - but decided that it will take too much time, and then most of our worker's job would be chopping and pasturing and mining which kind of makes cottages a bit too overstretching. But I defer to your expertise.

    I have totally forgotten that we don't have TW, and so we can't get the chariots upon pasturing the horses! Mea culpa!

    If we are going to REX, then putting more effort into the SH by building it in the capital makes sense, although I don't understand the need to get the second city first then, as producing the settler has limited severely the growth of the first one and has set up a second target for the Barbs without providing for a lot of military-unit-building compensation for that.

    I'd prefer to have TW first for military reasons, I'd like to have pottery first for economic reasons. In WL, war seems to take precedence, and as building the SH in the capital will slow considerably the overall production of military units, I seem inclined to ensure getting better ones ASAP, so I'd go TW first.

    I won't be settling the 3rd city, so I leave the choice of its placement to you, but I like the tile between the cows and the apex of the spice triangle, which allows also for the working of a lot of river tiles.

    As to HBR opposed to IW opposed to Construction as the basis of the coming war, I think the decision will depend very much on the copper availability. Letting China spread out till cats and phants has been detrimental to my games - even where I have destroyed it - but it seems that the AIs don't handle cats that well, so, with the support of a better player it might play out - repetition intended.

    Any further thoughts, suggestions and corrections?
     
  16. FiveRings

    FiveRings Chieftain

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    Thanks for the comments, V! They came up while I was writing my reply, so I couldn't consider them at that time.

    What you have written makes sense, provided that we go REXing, and not preparing for war without getting many cities up, which was my initial intent (involving early IW/HBR).

    I'd rather prefer cottages and grannaries than WBs spent on seafood at this later stage of the game. I actually like very much coast start-ups and fish/clam/crab farming but they provide their best return when farmed before worker- and settler-building as the gpt provides for faster teching while building the latter.

    You are right about commerce and gold needed, which was exactly why I prefered not to REX, and not to SH. However, the team seems inclined to go the other way, and I see cottages as somewhat more helpful than sea gold.

    TW lapsus was referred to in my previous post.
     
  17. vranasm

    vranasm Chieftain

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    you don't have land for cottages.

    It's really :deadhorse: but you surely don't.
    People better then me run math for non-riverside non-financial cottages and they are horrible improvement for too long time (f.e. running coast is better first 10T, then the same for another 15T, then finally non-riverside non-financial cottage takes over and first 10T takes catching up, that means for 35T you're catching up with the cottage compared to working coast tile!)
    If you bring GPP scientist into equation, well the cottages are horrible, forget them.

    The only place where you COULD place cottages is 3 tiles in capital, where 1 is plain, ask yourself if this really is worthwhile to take such big distraction.

    Granaries are of course good. But right now you should think commerce.

    You need trade routes (preferably foreign since they are 2c base value, so roading towards mao makes sense btw)
    and you need scientists.

    The question of SH is interesting one. Even if you don't land the wonder, fail gold economy surely isn't something to sneeze at and when you actually land the wonder...then that's just even better.

    Regarding city 2 builds... depends how serious attempt you would make on SH. You surely shouldn't delay the border pop into gold too much.
     
  18. woopdeedoo

    woopdeedoo Chieftain

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    I think we should get another warrior out while BW is researched. Then build SH. Our free :) with a monument and SH's free monument in every city just makes sense...

    Edit: Especially considering the amount of cities we are going to build! SH will practically pay for itself!
     
  19. FiveRings

    FiveRings Chieftain

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    Thanks again, V, good hints of potential ways to go!

    But why should seafood be better than cottages? We have only two very good tiles for cottages. We also have only two good seafoods by the capital. The two cottages will start providing the same gpts in 17 turns max (chopping - necessary for the SH, as agreed, included). In 27 turns they will have started yielding more gpt than the seafood. My guess is that they would have yielded more in 50 turns. Too late? I don't think we'll finish the game by 800 BC.

    Additional food coming from seafood? Sure. But a grannary will provide the same growth. Grannary needs hammers? So do WBs. Besides, getting one grannary needs whipping once, 2 WBs- whipping twice. Pottery needs teching? So does Fishing (somewhat less time-consuming, granted). We might get the grannary impact later, after the fish-farming? Sure. So could we with the WBs.

    Is SE always better than CE? Or rather ME?

    Roads to China? Instead of pastures and mines and cottages? Interesting thought, but cottages will be providing almost the same yield of gpt for quite some time. Not to mention that OBs need more teching, Maio's acquiescence, and our willingness to open them and run the risk of Mao settling our underbelly. Not to mention the risk of Barbs' pillageing.
     
  20. vranasm

    vranasm Chieftain

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    if you have good cottagable land CE isn't that bad. Biggest problem is it is slow, they slowly get better, they offer slow growth of cities and they offer not enough flexibility.

    What's even worse you can't whip from cottages because then you will hurt yourself.

    You're right that teching fishing is questionable the same way pottery is! but sea food offers very good regrowth potential (cottages don't) and you will surely use the whip a lot.
    But from the first initial expansion phase will surely none need fishing and capital can delay seafood for awhile.

    the bad thing here is you can't share much of the food sources from capital except for the cows.

    Don't neglect early trade routes. It's one of things better players then me concentrate, but surely not in expense of basic improvements.

    just connecting city 1 and city 2 will bring 2 more commerce, if you would multiply it through Mao it would be 4 commerce.

    Once you get to writing and I think you should go here with TW->writing (once we cleared the fishing + pottery idea) and build some libraries around, you have food, bigger happy cap to employ the scientist, but first you need to grow into them, cottages would only slow you down.

    If you're really interested about playing without cottages, go for examples here, here or here.

    then there is somewhere fantastic post about specialists x cottages from U_Sun which i surely will not find.
     

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