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Moonraker

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by Cam_H, Sep 13, 2011.

  1. vranasm

    vranasm Chieftain

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    I think for non-creative civ you want to place too many cities with food in 2nd ring.

    I would do other dotmap, but don't want to repeat myself too much, to not annoy you ;-)
     
  2. Cam_H

    Cam_H Chieftain

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    A non-Creative civ with Stonehenge though.

    You can dot-map if you want ... the more input the merrier! :)
     
  3. vranasm

    vranasm Chieftain

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    ah forgot the SH... well at least it's makes it more painless... granted I like to put cities with 1st ring food even as Creative if the map allows it ;-).
    Makes cities running sooner.
     
  4. woopdeedoo

    woopdeedoo Chieftain

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    I will wait for some input from FR and some more from our esteemed leader and lurker (who should consider joining, I promise, I will write up better PPPs than the Fu Manchu game) and play tomorrow... I have to admit, I'm sorting out a lot of things atm so I also don't have time to look at anything for the next 12 (or so) hours anyway so it works out well ;)
     
  5. Cam_H

    Cam_H Chieftain

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    I look forward to your pre-play plan.

    I guess a bit of a dilemma is when to build Granaries and Libraries given we still need so many units out (Chariots for spawnbusting at least, but I'd shoot for another Settler along with them). Don't forget that we're in Slavery, so a bit of considered whipping can help things along.

    Tech-wise I'm very torn after we get Writing. We could try and get to Alphabet first and broker some deals ... there's value in a Construction bee-line ... and as earlier noted; The Great Lighthouse can work well on Continents maps, which pushes us down other pathways.

    I'd swap into Judaism if it seeps into our empire. Mao Zedong is no zealot, but given his tech' lead according to 'The most advanced tribes' screen during my recent turnset plus his access to Copper, I'd try to avoid being on the receiving end of a Chinese DoW by adopting his faith.
     
  6. woopdeedoo

    woopdeedoo Chieftain

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    Alright. Here is my proposal:

    In cap: char>char>settler
    In 2nd city: char>char>worker
    3rd City: SIP>char>library

    I dont think my TS will allow for any more but if it does, I will slot granaries and libraries after the settler and worker are finished. With regard to tech: writing>math>constr. we may want to consider slinging to CoL. If we are lucky, it will be founded in 3rd city. We can use our GPr to shrine it and it will give us enough :culture: to fight off the irritating Mao city. Obviously, getting CoL means not going original tech path as described above. The team should really decide which path is preferred.

    Keeping in mind that we don't want a DoW from Mao, if we do land Conf, we don't adopt it but rather Judaism if it spreads to us.
     
  7. Cam_H

    Cam_H Chieftain

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    I am fine with Chariot production :) but whether you want 2 Chariots in a row or Chariot > Worker/Settler > Chariot is your call as to what you think works best.

    Again, I'm not particularly opposed to founding a city where that Settler is at the moment, but I'm a bit so-so to say the least on trying to get in Mao's face on one hand and then being neurotic about competing with his culture pressure on the other (i.e. we take a huge diversion off our tech' pathway to found Confucianism hoping that the Holy City will fall on the right settlement so we can then build a Shrine to fend off the culture pressure from Mao's Jewish Holy City).

    I'd rather see the view ... (a.) we steer clear of that site by heading a tile north or north-west for instance, or (b.) cultural pressure ... "Blah!" ... "Let's see what our stack of War Elephants have to honk about Mao's 'cultural pressure'"!

    As I said earlier ... I'm very divided about tech-paths where there are compelling arguments to go in any of several directions.
     
  8. woopdeedoo

    woopdeedoo Chieftain

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    For me, the two chariots in a row practically mean instant worker and settler thanks to having the pop to whip them out almost immediately.

    I understand (and am starting to agree... milldy ;) )about not settling in place. Perhaps settle the copper site instead, keep tech on the way to construction and then take the Jewish Holy City with an army of elephants and catapults...
     
  9. Cam_H

    Cam_H Chieftain

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    As I said above, I'm quite OK for us to found a city where the Settler's at, but if we do that then I think we just need to accept that its BFC will be culturally pressured, which we can live with provided we do seriously plan for a Catapult and War Elephant conflict to remove the Jewish Holy City's 'threat'. I don't think that founding a city in 'average' terrain and have it preoccupied with building things such as a Library or Monastery (in time) as priorities for fear of losing tiles to the Chinese (rather than because a Library or Monastery is an appropriate move for this city's commercial role in our empire) is a particularly great move.

    Obviously we have several forests around that can be chopped to hurry things along in addition to the whip.

    As noted, that floodplains immediately south of Vienna needs development of some sort (I really should have done this last turnset). This city strikes me as a good commercial site, so a Cottage works, but we'll also be doing a fair bit of whipping, so there's a case for a Farm there instead. Your call.

    I don't mind if you toss Fishing into the mix, on the way to Construction ... which looks like the direction you'd prefer.

    Best of luck! :)
     
  10. woopdeedoo

    woopdeedoo Chieftain

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    Oops, I forgot about fishing. :blush: Guess I could squeeze that in after Writing is done...
     
  11. woopdeedoo

    woopdeedoo Chieftain

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    Actually, now that I think of this (some more), are we going to go for another wonder? Oracle? TGL? If so, we need to tech in that direction, rather than our current militaristic path. I really need some input from the team (and lurker ;) ) on which direction to go. Personally, I think we could temporarily detour our tech to do fishing>sailing before HbR>math>constr and try get TGL built. Alternatively, if we think we still have a shot at Oracle (I don't) we can shoot the religious path and perhaps grab CoL for Conf anyways...

    Personally, I think we should detour to Fishing>Sailing, try get TGL and go back to HbR>math>constr and get a cataphant army together and knock some heads together...
     
  12. Cam_H

    Cam_H Chieftain

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    I'm fine with that.

    We will need Masonry for both The Great Lighthouse and Construction, and we don't require Horseback Riding [Warlords expansion] for War Elephants.
     
  13. vranasm

    vranasm Chieftain

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    checking the save...

    it seems to me like you try to hunt too many rabbits at once.
    It's already 1600 BC, that doesn't hear great for good attack date with cats.

    You need to grow capital a lot. Capital lacks food improvements. So definitely fishing after writing.
    Could use at least 1-2 farms on those grass riverside imo.

    I am really surprised that city 2 has gold, ivory improved but no farm yet.

    From the look of it, capital would be best site for library. It looks like capital is hammer hungry.

    Could use more workers and some chops of trees around.
    I would not probably build more then 1 chariot in capital and instead in 2T queue up granary.
    After fishing definitely some work boats.
    At least 1 worker could be great help with the forests.

    I would settle the new city 1N, it gets cows 1st ring.

    City 2 needs the farm on FP and then probably forget about the city.

    I would concentrate on expansion south from city 3.

    about the actual dotmap...I was thinking like this:

     
  14. woopdeedoo

    woopdeedoo Chieftain

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    Spot A looks fine as well. If there isn't any objection, then I will settle there. I will be playing in a few hours.
     
  15. woopdeedoo

    woopdeedoo Chieftain

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    Ok I played to 1000BC. Settled the new city and signed OB with MZ once Writing was in. Checkit:



    Well spotted Cam... Still it makes me sad. Doing some scouting. Since nobody went yay or nay wrt TGL, I opted for the more militaristic tech path. We got Fishing in and am almost at Math so we can go Construction after. Oracle and Great Wall were built.

    Sorry the report isn't very detailed, but I'm a little all over the place lately. We got one WB out and a couple of chariots. One is busy scouting MZ's lands and the others are either in their spawnbusting position or en route.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. vranasm

    vranasm Chieftain

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    again just for "educational" purpose I replayed the TS woop did to show my view on it.

    settled 4th city, chopped some trees, improved fish instead of clams and didn't build any cottages (which I find here useless) (maybe some worker more or something, not sure since I didn't analyze the differences)

    Next TS if I were to continue what I am offering is to build another settler in capital from size 5 with whip OF into library.

    city 2 after granary worker
    city 3 too
     
  17. Cam_H

    Cam_H Chieftain

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    woopdeedoo,

    Thanks for the turnset - good work on the Chariots and getting out another Worker.

    No Settler as per PPP?

    vranasm,

    Thanks for your demo game. There are some good moves in terms of use of Workers, and the extra city does make the position look stronger. The Fish does have a better :food: yield than the Clams up at Prague. I like what the Barb's did for us in your game too! ;)

    Generally,

    Really we should have a Farm on the Wheat west of Jaws in preference to Farming riverside Plains (low priority tiles unless part of an irrigation chain), and as noted a few times, a :traderoute: into China will improve our commerce (unfortunately simultaneously Mao's also). Note that China now has five cities and Germany has four. England apparently used the Oracle slingshot on Monarchy.

    Personally I've got no problem with the Cottages (sorry - but I don't have a problem with them!), but I'm not sure of the value of the Mine that's being built around Prague while there are still forest chops to get at least partially down (Maths to extend the +50%:hammers: bonus in a few turns).

    I'm in a bit of a 'Settlers+Workers+Chariots' mindset right now re. this game, more so than 'Libraries+Granaries' (trying to out-REX Mao Zedong), so I'd possibly question the Library build in Jaws, which I assume has come in straight after the Granary whip. As discussed pre-turnset, this city is going to be under cultural pressure, but it really only has two decent tiles anyway aside from the city centre, both of which are safe from China. This city was really just a blocker, and I don't think the Library is going to help in any meaningful way. Sure - without a Library we'll lose access to a Spice tile (that we won't be able to develop for a while), and maybe some dry Plains a little bit quicker, but "meh".

    Next up I'd like to see a few more cities. The coastal-riverside spot ("E" in #58) isn't going to help in terms of blocking Mao's expansion, but it is really our only :food:-rich site other than Prague - and I'd love to grab it. Where vranasm has put the fourth city in his alternate game is certainly one of a few strong blocking sites. The Copper-Cows spot is also OK as a production spot ("G" in #58). Also another unit or two for spawnbusting would be desirable.

    I think that we're right to press ahead toward Construction in the meantime. The Great Lighthouse would be really good, but I'm mindful of vranasm's observation about "chasing too many rabbits", and think that focussing on expansion and later capturing China 'trumps' building a pretty handy WoW. Anyway - Masonry next, and then Construction (or maybe Sailing?).

    FiveRings said that he'd be available from the 2nd of October, so I'm fine to wait for him.

    I'm gone from the 7th to the 14th of October, so will aim to play my turnset around the 4th-6th.
     
  18. vranasm

    vranasm Chieftain

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    yeah I know you like cottages better then me.

    The problem with them is the fact that they eat worker turns in bad time (they were constructed instead of chopping forests for example) and you will be forced to work them. But the capital at this phase has other tasks to do then to work cottages.

    You need to maximize food for growth, then work scientists (I don't see any other city capable of this). So kind of growing cottages is the last thing you want to do.

    Actually capital is best spot for pumping out settlers/workers for a long time, since city 3 will be stagnant very long (actually until CS) and city 2 can grow only gradually.

    I think even if cottages in capital were somewhat ok (since you will want to work them eventually), the cottage on flood plain in city 2 is useless, since that city doesn't have natural source of food other then flood plain and every F counts there.
     
  19. FiveRings

    FiveRings Chieftain

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    Hi, team!

    We could do better - esp if V has spent the time in playing instead of lurking! - but it's not that bad for Monarch-level game, it seems. Power and crop is where we are behind, and it seems that some more emphasis on food instead of gold could work better. It would have also slowed down research and settling, of course. As usual, various ways to win the game, and I for myself can't see why one of these should be considered as definitely the better one with so much game still in front.

    Before I go to the PPP:
    Cam,
    where the number of cities of Mao, etc, come from? I don't seem to be able to tell this...
    Cam, W,
    why do we keep the chariot and the scout close together in the South? I would rather send the Scout North. Also, why do we need the chariot stay in the West, in future Chinese territory? I would be curious as to what cities will be set up there, but, again, better beef up the south defences, if necessary, or move to the north (BTW, don't we get Barbs coming from there?)

    PPP:
    1. techwise: go Construction. Seems we'll have to drop the research rate soon, and it is some 22 turns away, so I don't need to make any hard decisions here. In the situation we find ourselves in, it seems better to go Alph after Construction as we might be able to trade with everybody, including Mao, before attacking the latter. However, if he is the leader in research, as indicated by Cam, we might hardly trade anything with him - and Liz and Bis as well. This seems close to a coin-flip, as, in case Mao has gone long the path of religions, it might still work. May be some guidance and reasoning kindly provided by the experts will be most helpful here to get a clearer picture of why one or another wya ahead is chosen... At my level of playing, and no additional info, I'd go Alph, of course, or beeline Lib right away... (LH and TGL seem great to strive after, but that's too much on top of REXing, I think.)

    2. productionwise: I'd definitely prefer to go granary, WB in the capital, and I would leave the lib to be built by OF (we have some 20 turns till the GrPriest, when we should - by standard convention - get Scientists on so that we move towards a GrSc in the city and it seems that it's around that time that we need to have the Lib built ...AND enough food to have the Scientists, too). I'd also be producing settlers/workers/units there, but I think grannary and fishing are priority in the capital, and getting settlers from the smaller cities looks preferable to me at this moment (yeah, workers never are too many, the saying says, although I can attest to there being such cases, however I would prioritize setllersas we have 4 of the 4.5 workers recommended at three-city size and not that many tiles to work, chopping and roading toward Mao aside.) This implies switch in the Jaws from lib to settler right away, as already suggested by Cam.

    3. units movement: if I don't hear any solid reasons for keeping the scout and the char to the West of Shanghai where thay currently are, I'll move them to the North.

    4. work: I agree that wheat by the Jaws, chopping, and, if enough workforce left, roading towards Mao is the priority now, and in that order

    5. I see myself very much in support of V's "Go South" strategy, and I like also the coastal cityhe has indicated as next city placement, but I would rather go below Shanghai's belly, somewhat to the East first, if you don't mind, and if Mao doesn't get this first (the latter reasoning might be just food for thought, as I don't think I'll get two settlers up in my TS). I think we can postpone a bit the settling of the nice city Cam's so intense about, but would of course listen to some more reasoning about that if it doesn't come post factum, of course.

    By the way, do tell me now, if you think getting the settler is urgent - instead of gran and WB in the capital, and let's discuss it why, as I do have a propensity to develop, instead of expand, esp, and esp in the early stage of the game, when development means growth...

    6. diplo: I agree on converting to Mao's religion ASAP, especially that I see religion as already creating some friction between Mao and Liz. BTW, where is Britain? Did we get in touch with a Brittish boat, or scout? (the latter case makes exploration of the North even more attractive, I guess...)

    This is all that comes to my mind now. I'd like to get my turnset done tomorrow evening, so, please, feed me back ASAP in order to open a window for discussion if opinions differ.
     
  20. Cam_H

    Cam_H Chieftain

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    Hi team member! :D

    If we open negotiations > trades with our rivals, you can see their city list 'sans Capital' ...



    You've covered a lot, and I'll look forward to responding to your other comments soon. :)
     

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