Moonraker

[FiveRings]

Yes, of course. How stupid of me to forget about that.

BTW, I think I'll build the WB in Vienna, so this leaves the Capital city with doing the granny and then settler-warrior-settler-warrior-worker with incidental lib turns inbetween. So, discussing the settlement of the second two cities might be relevant.

I think it's better to get the next city not exactly on the tile that V indicated, but 1E. Advantages: wheat in first ring, more productive tiles, less cspace for Mao. Disadvantage: more culturakl pressure from Shanghai, but still a long way to go to cause disruptions, and in the long term we plan to own Shaghai, don't we?!

Do I understand correctly that you, Cam, don't mind getting the second-next city South of Shanghai before starting to fill in the space to the SE of the Jaws?

 

[Cam_H]

FiveRings,

Thanks for your thoughts. My 2¢:

On units

'Yes' - I'd prefer to see spawnbusting covered/addressed before recon', although checking out 'enemy' turf is something we should endeavour to do prior to attack. If you can get maximum spawnbusting coverage from existing units in the south, that'd be great.

On Tech'

I think that we should make a call ("yes" or "no") on The Great Lighthouse now I'd suggest before ignoring or committing to Sailing.

I have no problem with Alphabet after Construction (and maybe Sailing?) provided we still have a shot at getting it as a monopoly tech'. Metal Casting also has appeal, but to trade it around puts Mao one step closer to Cho Ko Nus. Currency is a handy tech' too, esp. if we REX. Bottom line though; I'd wait to see where the world stands on Alphabet before making a decision.

On Settlers and Builds

Jaws does strike me as a place that can sit on two population (Cows, Wheat) or three population (Cows, Wheat, Ivory) and just slowly churn out Settlers and Workers given its poor tile choices beyond the three resources.

The suggestion on a Work Boat out of Vienna for Prague's Fish is a good one imho

. Vienna really could sit on four or five population and slow-build a Library to leverage the Gold Mine. I'd maybe get going on the Work Boat now, then complete the Granary, before a Library or Chariots/Galleys if needed.

With around three turns to go, I'd push out that Prague Library first.

'Yes'; the southern zone south of Jaws is however a priority, I agree, for strategic purposes alone. I actually thought putting it on the Plains Hill would work well, but I'm comfortable with the Desert Hill or 1W of Wheat as suggested.

A couple of Galleys 'in time' to protect the Work Boats from Barb' Galleys is one to bear in mind - whether these come from Prague or Vienna, I'm not sure.

On England

We met Churchill's Archer roaming from the south, but by the look of the land I'm guessing he's north of Germany.

I hope this is of some use. Best of luck!

 

[FiveRings]

Thanks, Cam!

1. Unit movement: I'd definitely move the scout to the North. I am planning to get the char in China back to our South first and use it as garrison for a couple of turns till a warrior gets there. If no apparent need for three chars in our South, I'll send it to the North (and you'll have the option of going that way or return it as needed, I guess).

2. As noted, LH and GLH are my pets in early game, so I'd go along if W is OK with this path, too (I figured it out that we might be at the peak of our REXing when the Seacomes in).

3. I was asking about the potential fifth city, as I might need to route towards it the second settler I'm planning to produce. Fourth city to the South of the Jaws is agreed by all, it seems. I gather from what you've jotted down that you prefer the switch to a settler right away (from the library and instead of to a grannary) in the Cap. I am OK with that, as I am afraid, as pointed out, to come somewhat late to the South party if I go grannary first.

I don't get Barb galleys come to my shores so early in the game, so I was planning to get the warrior on WB OF from Vienna - and that after the library there but you have actually made me have second thoughts about it of whether it might be better to have the WB coming ASAP there. That would delay the library/warrior but I could use the Western char instead, as noted, although I am having lately very bad oucomes of char vs archer battles. I was planning on no whipping in Vienna till all useful tiles are worked.

4. I think both you and V don't count the Spice after chopping the forest on it - which is 2F. But I totally agree about the switch from the lib and the priority of getting the wheat farmed there

 

[FiveRings]

The save at the end of my TS is below.

1000 BC (t0)
Prague: lib-> settler
Jaws: lib-> settler
Scout moved northward, Eastern char by Shaghai - Ewest

975 BC (t1)
Bismarck offers OBs, OK
Eastern chariot kills Barb Archer

950 BC (t2)
nada

925 BC (t4)
Vienna: Garan>WB
Prague whips settler

900 BC (t4)
Math> Masonry

875 BC (t5)
Prague: lib>Gran
Jaws: switch from settler to warrior to make use of the farmed wheat

850 BC (t6)
Nada
Bismarck has HA
Mao has Sword

825 BC (t7)
Barb Warrior seen to NE of Vienna by scout. Major movement of units from Cap and Vienna to meet him

800 BC (t8)
Masonry>Canstruction
Bibracte found: gran
Bismarck can trade fish

775 BC (t9)
Barb Warrior kills our warrior on jungle
Vienna: WB>Chariot , whipped to get it so that to attack Barb on Gold Mine. No destruiction on my territory: solemn oath to Cam.
Barb Archer by Brabante

750 BC (t10)
Char kills Barb Warrior on Gold Mine
Char kills Barb Archer by Brabante
Vienna: warrior
Jaws whips settler

Evidently, a mistake in the counting, so 1 turn less. However, with Settler whipped and no common understanding where our 5th city will be sited, might have been OK to finish as well. I may move 11 turns next time...

 

[Cam_H]

Thanks - got it. Good stuff by the looks from a cursory view.

Thoughts from here

Accept the Great Prophet or take an outside shot at a Great Scientist by running Scientists for a bit? What to do with Great Prophet assuming that's what we get - hold for Golden Age or merge into a city?

Next city in the deep south - Fur-Copper-Fish? North east of south Copper? Other?

Vienna - switch away from Warrior to Chariot (both can be made from whip overflow)? I'd like to get this city up to 4 and then work the Gold.

Prague will be a bit tricky to manage, but in light of its massive food we should be able to simultaneously run Scientists, work the Cottages, and do the occasional whip-regrow (big populations aren't great for whip-regrow). Once Construction's in, we might focus more on the and less on the ?

Jaws to regrow to two or three and get out Settlers/Workers. Bibracte to do similar (I guess?) after the Granary's whipped?

We still need to connect to China. More spawnbusting in the south west.

 

[FiveRings]

1. GrSc lottery: No, the chances seem too slim, and we need to grow the city. I'd rather settle the GrPr to get the 5gpt from that.
2. Char instead of warrior in Vienna: That was my first reaction, but I have decided that we seem to have enough chars right now - with the one recently added to deal with the Barb on the Gold Mine. One warrior short of the # of cities now, and a new settler coming up next turn, a warrior or two seem more appropriate. Or use of OF into galley or library.
3. Next settling: we'll be at 50% research with 4 cities, so the next might be better placed at a place with good growth and income potential rather than to further block Mao. The one on the coast suggested by V and you might work both ways, but you seemed to have a nice place in mind, too, before V came up with his proposals.
4. Finally, a bit on further teching. I kind of reconsidered my reconsidered thoughts: we either go LHs / TGL or build the SoD after construction. Both might be too much where we have quite few hammer/food producing cities. I guess the Q is: REX or invade Mao with cataxes? In the latter case, which we seemed to look positively on, Currency might be preferable.
5. I'd use the Cap for barracks-galleys-pyramides- couple of workers, but not too many of these - not that many tiles to work as of now - maybe one more settler (looking forward to the 5gpt from the GrPr settlement and the much delayed currency). This is suggested under the assumption that we'll limit ourselves to six cities till we find some additional income flowing in and we won't try to get it thru extensive cottageing. Again, seems to depend on REX vs Conquer decision. I couldn't road towards Mao, but our trade areas are to touch very soon anyway.

I'll be away tomorrow and till next Sunday, so: good luck!!

 

[woopdeedoo]

Had a quick look at save. Barring that barbs settled copper|fishy|fur spot (as in Vranasm's game), I think we should go there. We can use the copper asap and the city will feed itself. Happy day. Let's block Mao off and start building military and then crush him. Additionally, jaws needs some I think. So does Bribactre (sp?).

 

[Cam_H]

Frigg'n crosspost!

Contingent upon the wants of woopdeedoo ...

OK ... happy enough to hold off the Scientists in Prague for a while and focus on population growth, at least until after the first Great Person. Workers and Settlers to come from other cities.

I really think a Chariot out of Vienna is still a good move but will go with 'a Warrior + more overflow' if you both would prefer.

On expansion: The Fur-Copper-Fish site has a pretty fair commerce haul in its own right in light of the prospective Fur Camp. We're not working the Gold in Vienna, and those Prague cottages will help too when we get them a bit more developed. Getting international trade routes and our new cities connected are other positive factors. I can live without the central Copper site for a bit, but that Fish-Floodplains site on the west coast in my view will be really good for whip-regrow when it gets to War Elephants and Catapults. As you note, a merged Great Prophet also will deliver 5/turn which in itself goes some way to covering the cost of another settlement.​

[Edit] Thanks for your thoughts woopdeedoo - including the endorsement of the Copper-Fur-Fish site. The need for additional culture in the border cities is the one thing that I guess I see differently. These cities may lose tiles in their big-fat-crosses, but the cities themselves are pretty well immune to flipping for a long time given their placement, and as discussed, our plan is to own Shanghai at some stage within the next 60-ish turns (?) anyway. They're there essentially to form a cultural wall that may dissuade Mao from settling further west, but the loss of a few Plains tiles isn't any great tragedy, and I'd prefer them to build Workers and Settlers that will help our broader empire than try to compete with Shanghai for low quality tiles by building Libraries et al. Bibracte is soon to become Monte Carlo! [/Edit]

 

[woopdeedoo]

Awesome!

 

[Cam_H]

Garrrrrr! I did a lengthy video (now that YouTube allows me to have clips longer than 15 minutes) that unfortunately didn't save (I presume file size of the original recording was too big), and sadly I didn't take notes either.

Good news - everything more-or-less went to plan:

Judaism did spread to our empire (Steel Jaw Guy and Monte Carlo) and we converted, getting Mao up to 'pleased'.

Mao has not spread past our 'wall of cities'.

I got Geneva settled at the Copper-Fur-Fish site.

All cities are connected, and we have international trade routes.

We've got a Settler who's currently west of Steel Jaw Guy.

The south west is spawnbusted.

The Great Prophet (Kobo Daishi - 8th Century Japanese Buddhist monk and artist) was settled in Prague as intended.

Construction is in. I've done minimal research toward Sailing, as we may want to swap to Currency now, or conversely see Sailing through (Triremes).

Only Bismark has Alphabet, but has a good number of tech's on us. We can do; Maths <> Iron Working with him if we want. For what it's worth, note that he can build Horse Archers.​

Miscellaneous screenies:

Spoiler :

Just quickly on the builds;

Prague is in 'growth' stage again now that we've connected the Fur for an extra +1 It's whip-weariness-free at the moment, but as our army develops, I guess the whip can play a greater part.

Vienna should grow to work the Horse Pasture. I did whip out its Library, but it's a long way from its happiness cap anyway.

Steel Jaw Guy only recently finished the Settler and just begun on the Catapult.

Monte Carlo only recently finished its Worker and reverted back to the earlier queued Granary build. Whether this is best, or Barracks, or units, I guess is the roster's call.

Geneva's been on that Work Boat since settlement, and it will get a border pop next turn. Workers are 'raring to go' on getting up the Copper Mine.​

I guess aside from founding another city or two, the focus is building up an invasion force (10 Cat's and 10 War Elephants? More? ). Currency and Sailing seem to me to be the two best tech's for us at the moment. The Great Lighthouse is still up for grabs, but I'm very much leaning to getting our invasion force up.

Happy to hand it over! Best of luck!

 

[woopdeedoo]

Looks very nice. I am very happy I think 10 cats and 10 phants would work but i would also try and add a couple spears as well. If our esteemed neighbour has cart horses or mounted arrow shooting horsies, we may have some problems...

 

[woopdeedoo]

Is it my turn?

 

[FiveRings]

I AM back, although I shouldn't even allude to ... you know whom.

I think it's not my turn, is it?

Cam, thanks for getting us to greener pastures!

I agree on the army building. I think V might turn correct that we are somewhat late in our prep for war. And GLH / triremes might be a needless distraction. I don't like Barbs and AIs destroying my nets, but I'd rather focus on the army, hence: use research on a non-building tech, hence: go Currency. The real question is whether we can rear amy even as strong as suggested by yourself before Mao gets to CBs / Maces.

On the other hand, we seem to have to make it happen. I am on the losing end of many of my latest games as I continue to postpone war. Let's go full trottle into war prep while researching Currency. Let's gamble on not going triremes, too. If Mao sends fleets, then galleys in the 10% waters might prevent too much damage. If Barbs appear, then this might sweeten a bit the bitter reality check. But we need Mao's cities, and/or the money from burning them.

 

[woopdeedoo]

I think it is my turn and I shall play today. PPP of sorts:

Settle the spot in the bushes where the blue circle was in Cam's previous-previous set (the video one that worked ).
Switch tech to currency and go full out war prep. I'm going to try and get some semblance of an army together in the 10 (15?) turns I have so that the FR can DoW... or at least get the final bits together. I may chuck a barracks in here or there but I will see how the set goes. Just need a "go-ahead" on the suggested city placement.

 

[FiveRings]

Re next city:
1s to what Cam has proposed under #58: avoids desrt, gets one more resource in the fat cross, doesn't interfere with (next?!) city on the coast to the South (and a bit to the Ea

West). Doesn't interfere very much with the "Copper" city (BY the blue circle on the same #58). Copper is not needed yet (while we are) having phants.
Actually, I'd also go fo the Southwestern-est city before the copper one, if here is a chance.

Go, W, go! We can't summon an army, so we'll build it, no matter how long this will take!

Anyway, a more detailed PPP woulds be appreciated...

 

[woopdeedoo]

So, here is the picture posted in Cam's post:

Are you suggesting settling 1S of "A"? I'm going to have another look at the save real quick and comment further...

 

[woopdeedoo]

I personally think silver spot (mediocre, I know but maybe decent in the long run?) followed by White spot...

Or white spot first? BTW, you guys like my snipping tool dot mapping? LOL! Any suggestions on apps that can do this a little better?

 

[FiveRings]

I was referring to Cam's E on the map on post#58. I stand corrected that E there - see Cam's text below, can't copy-paste the map itself - and your purple dot above seem the best options to start with. Then the copper site.


"E" on the coast strikes me as a pretty decent commerce-oriented site, and I've tried to find spots to the east from there.

"F" could be an OK production site, with plains Cows, grassland Copper, some riverside grasslands, and hills, but as earlier noted, will be so-so until we get Civil Service to better irrigate its lands. With the Horses we have access to now, we should be able to spawnbust safely and expand peacefully if we want to go down that pathway for a while - so rushing to the Copper isn't crucial if we're not going to rush at Mao with Axes and Gallic Warriors.

 

[woopdeedoo]

 

[woopdeedoo]

"F" is the green dot in my dotmap. I don't like it purely because it loses a load of tiles between our cap and itself while also overlapping copper city (white dot) more than half. For that reason, I would rather settle "Silver" (1N of "F").

With the Horses we have access to now, we should be able to spawnbust safely and expand peacefully if we want to go down that pathway for a while - so rushing to the Copper isn't crucial if we're not going to rush at Mao with Axes and Gallic Warriors.

I think we are rushing... I know my vote goes toward a war