Moonsinger's Farm - chieftain world

[Moonsinger]

Well, I'm going to start my first huge map milk game on Chieftain soon. Since there are just way too many gray area in C3C, I'm going back to the good odd PTW v1.27f now before I may accidentally break any future* rule in C3C.

I will be with the Rusian and my opponents are all scientific civs plus everyone who aren't expansionists. Barb level will be set to ultimate nightmare! I'm going to need those barbs to farm for great leader. Hopefully, I should be able to relocate my palace to a remoted lost paradise with my first great leader. There will be some additional rules that will be strictly enforced:

1. There shall be no scientific leader!(j/k) I'm just dreaming and in my dream, PTW doesn't allow any scientific great leader.

That's it! I'm going to see how far I will get without pushing any limit (well, except for that remote palace and the extra free tech slingshot). This game will be strictly for fun and I don't mind if it won't make the top 10 chieftain slots. It probably won't be any match for any of the C3C games, but I just have to wait and see. MapFinder has been started at home and hopefully I will have maps to play tonight. I will play any map with a domination limit of 4400 or above with at least 1 cow and 1 fresh water source visible at the starting location.

*future rule = rule that hasn't been yet decided/discovered/formed. There are at least another half dozen extra rules that I think will be outlawed some day in the future. So far, no one has figured them out yet. Though I'm not talking about them, I'm sure some of you would discover them eventually. In that case, the credit of any new discovery would be 100% your to keep. I don't want any part of it. Exactly why I'm going back to PTW. I do have a Sid game currently in progress. It has a potential of reaching 80K and beyond, but I don't think I will go back to it any time soon. Though I didn't break any known rules, and didn't even come any where near any of orange rules, and have been staying far far away from the red, I have pushed a couple of the green rules to the limit (I won't tell you which one, so please don't ask). I think one of these days, green would be come red and may be most of my C3C games will be thrown off the list. If that day does come, I would be glad to cheer for anyone who can beat Sid on a huge map without taking advantage of the AI civs. At least now, I don't have to worry about me taking advantage of any AIs on the chieftain level (well, except for giving them tech knowing that they won't have the resource to use it; oh well, I honestly don't think Civ will be any fun without any type of exploits) Wow! I think I just wrote my farewell speak. If that is true, this would be my last game here (well, except for that Sid game in progress which is almost at the milking phase; it would be a crime against fun if you I don't finish it)

//Edit: Negative balance while doing maximum slider on research is now back in.

 

[a space oddity]

It *does* sound like a farewell speech, don't do that to us!

Enjoy your game.

 

[Mistfit]

Good Luck Moonsinger!

I'll never know how ou all have the patience for a Huge Milker

Please do not make that your farewell speech. We need to keep all of our Godesses around to level out this testosterone filled forum.

 

[EMan]

.....and I don't mind if it won't make the top 10 chieftain slots.

Come on Ms. Ms., who are we kidding here?.....You ARE the Top Milker (viz. ) in the CFC World!....and WE love you to death!

Perhaps YOU will support me in a future push to have a "Civ 4 Firaxis Rules Rule" or "No Rules" HOF (viz. A SEPARATE HOF where there are NO Rules.....whatever you can do with the game, in the game, is fine.....the Ultimate Level Playing Field!.....if you find a new exploit.....exploit it!!)

No Rules....Just Right!

Don't get me wrong.........I Love Rules and Love the HOF....and, dare I say it, I Love superslug et al.....Great Job.......And, I am a U.S. National Squash Referee....so I know Rules..........but, so what if you can score a zillion points in a game.....EVERYBODY would be playing by the same rules, or lack of!

For example, the HIGHEST score you can get on a Tiny Map at Chieftain level is an 8-turn Conquest Victory.....not much skill in that.....But, it hasn't been banned.......yet!

What worries me is that great players like Moonsinger get put off playing because they're worried about breaking current or future Rules!

 

[Offa]

*future rule = rule that hasn't been yet decided/discovered/formed.

There are at least another half dozen extra rules that I think will be outlawed some day in the future. So far, no one has figured them out yet. Though I'm not talking about them, I'm sure some of you would discover them eventually. In that case, the credit of any new discovery would be 100% your to keep. I don't want any part of it. Though I didn't break any known rules, and didn't even come any where near any of orange rules, and have been staying far far away from the red, I have pushed a couple of the green rules to the limit (I won't tell you which one, so please don't ask).

It's great to see you are playing again.

All this green/amber/red/black stuff, hinting about legal but naughty techniques: what a tease.

 

[Smirk]

Most of the rules in HOF are well thought out, and from my perspective are mostly aimed at things that would require everyone to exploit if they were allowed. For instance joining workers to rioting/starving cities would require anyone going for a milk highscore to do if it were allowed.
And the recent topic on the interturn citizen manipulation, this could be very exploitive and a huge time waster (having to switch the citizens every turn) and I'm glad its disallowed so I don't have to waste my time doing it to be competitive.

The problem with having no rules in a competitive situation is invariably there will some particular insanely powerful exploit that will top all others and just kill any highscore attempts, or force everyone to do the same which is the opposite of what you are suggesting will happen. There will be no variety, only the boss exploit will be played. In addition, some exploits are fixed, so then what, we have people playing all sorts of different patch levels, or ignoring patches based on exploits.

For instance I'm sure the current fastest conquests could be easily bested if pop rushing were as it was in early versions of vanilla civ. Think about what you could so with a few size 1 towns with 10spt, and with MapFinder you easily find those wheat floodplains.


Anyway, good luck on the chieftain attempt Moonsinger. You might top the list merely because you are the master milker, but I wouldn't think the palace bug would compete with agricultural and science leader pyramids. You can get better production, but what do you need to produce in chieftain? Its all dependant on food which is not affected by corruption and thus not helped by the palace bug. Where this may shine would be in the stage where you're already monstrous but filling out the domination limit, where the 5-10 turns difference for settlers in your (previously) 95% corrupt towns will make a huge difference becauce its multipled by 200 of them.

I'm interested in your results at any rate, it seems key that you get early leaders which is very tough in chieftain. Although less tough on a huge maps. But huge maps play against the early part, its still difficult because everyone is far from each other.




Also, I don't follow the logic on your choice of games, you aren't gonna play Conquests because you are concerned about future changes, but yet play PTW with the sole intention of exploting the palace bug, which is already banned in GOTM, but for some reason or other is not banned in HOF?

 

[Moonsinger]

Thank you everyone! Hopefully I will have some good maps to post tonight (this doesn't mean that I will quit working on the upgrade for MapFinder; to be perfectly honest, I'm still poking holes on the new formula that you were suggestting in the MF thread and it broke every time; therefore, it is really a big can of worm that I don't like to touch at the moment; therefore, if there is some small changes that you want me to get done right away, please PM me). Enough about MapFinder, back to the topic...

Perhaps YOU will support me in a future push to have a "Civ 4 Firaxis Rules Rule" or "No Rules" HOF (viz. A SEPARATE HOF where there are NO Rules.....whatever you can do with the game, in the game, is fine.....the Ultimate Level Playing Field!.....if you find a new exploit.....exploit it!!)

Sorry, EMan! I'm very sure that I won't support the "No Rules" idea. You really don't want to go there! First of all, to be perfectly clear - no rule mean you can do whatever you want in the game - ONLY what the game allow you to do - this does not give the right to use cheat utility like Powerbar or whatever Map Editor. In any case, if you want to play with no rule for fun and not for any HoF, I will be there to watch - I won't be playing one, but I think it would be fun to see how far you can go with it.

I like rules and orders (in fact, I'm quite please with the current set of rules here; Superslug and company have done a very good job here - I have no complain whatsoever). Sure, I may stress the limit of those rules (especially the green ones), but I wouldn't want to break any of them. I'm doing the same thing in real life. Usually, if the speed limit is 65 mph, I usually will drive at 70 mph. So far, I have a perfect driving record and have never had any tickets in my entire life. Does this mean I have broken the rule? Not really? Speed limit like a good guildline and cops usually don't give out tickets unless you are going more than 5 mph over the speed limit...and if you are going about 5mph over the speed limit during the green light, I doubt anyone would make a big deal out of it.

On the other hand, if there is no rule. It will be like driving on a dead track. Imaging some idiots doing 500 mph in a school zone that used to have a 25 mph speed limit. Not too mention some other idiots that may decide to drive a tank all over the freeway or something. A lot of people will get hurt, especially the children! For the good of mankind, please just say no to "no rule"!

 

[Moonsinger]

...I wouldn't think the palace bug would compete with agricultural and science leader pyramids. You can get better production, but what do you need to produce in chieftain? Its all dependant on food which is not affected by corruption and thus not helped by the palace bug. Where this may shine would be in the stage where you're already monstrous but filling out the domination limit, where the 5-10 turns difference for settlers in your (previously) 95% corrupt towns will make a huge difference becauce its multipled by 200 of them.

You might be right about that! However, it's hard to know for sure without actually trying it; therefore, the more reasons for me to play this game. To balance thing out a little, I have included an additional restriction of "no negative balance" in any turn. Otherwise, I think the agricultural civ in C3C won't stand much of a chance. Basically, I will get the all time low in corruption (great democratic government) plus an extra 0.6% higher in domination limit down the road, I think that may be enough to go against the agricultural civ and the early SGL bonus type of game.

Also, I don't follow the logic on your choice of games, you aren't gonna play Conquests because you are concerned about future changes, but yet play PTW with the sole intention of exploting the palace bug, which is already banned in GOTM, but for some reason or other is not banned in HOF?

Since this is a well known exploit and I'm not really play for the top slot of the HoF, I'm not worry. Basically, I just want a good base of comparision to the agricultural civ in C3C. It will be more about fun than score.

 

[Dianthus]

I think one of these days, green would be come red and may be most of my C3C games will be thrown off the list.

Don't worry so Moonsinger. We don't just change rules for the sake of it, and one of the criteria used in making the decision to change rules is whether the change would require excluding existing games. That's something we don't want to do unless there is a very good reason!

... with the sole intention of exploting the palace bug, which is already banned in GOTM, but for some reason or other is not banned in HOF?

HoF is different to GOTM (I love stating the obvious ). In GOTM the rules don't have to be consistent with past games. They can change the rules at the start of every month and that's fine so long as everyone plays to the same rules that month. In the HoF we have past games to bear in mind, as I alluded to above, and there are a number of games in the HoF that exploit this bug.

 

[EMan]

Duplicate Post, sorry!

 

[EMan]

I think the No-Rules Play (Actually, there are Rules.....Firaxis Rules) is as yet untested.

For example, Worker Dogpiling:
A. You have to expend resources to get all these extra workers in the first place!
B. You are probably better off using the workers to irrigate/railroad/deforest (How many milkers are deforesting EVERY eligible tile?) than to add them all to 1 city for a few extra points.
C. If you add the workers to a city in the late game, you might squeeze out a few more points.....something that a few thousand more MapFinder maps could eliminate that edge....by finding a higher Domination Limit before you even start the game......so should MapFinder be banned?......No, of course not..........Do you probably NEED to use MF to be competitive?.......YES!!

The other example you quoted, Smirk, about wasting time interturn reassigning laborers from Science/Commerce to Production/Happiness is again unproven.....I don't think the switch to production would be significant....and the Happiness switch would come with a loss of food production. You have to make sure a city at the beginning of the "Interturn Cycle" will allow you to get in and change the Laborers again!
You're PROBABLY right...........BUT, the contra-arguments have not been sufficiently analysed, IMHO!

 

[Moonsinger]

I think the No-Rules Play (Actually, there are Rules.....Firaxis Rules) is as yet untested.

True! However, if there is no rule...that mean everything else will be in too.

For example, Worker Dogpiling:
A. You have to expend resources to get all these extra workers in the first place!
B. You are probably better off using the workers to irrigate/railroad/deforest (How many milkers are deforesting EVERY eligible tile?) than to add them all to 1 city for a few extra points.
C. If you add the workers to a city in the late game, you might squeeze out a few more points.....something that a few thousand more MapFinder maps could eliminate that edge....by finding a higher Domination Limit before you even start the game......so should MapFinder be banned?......No, of course not..........Do you probably NEED to use MF to be competitive?.......YES!!

Well, please keep in mind that the worker dogging is like a drop of water on the ocean. There are actually much bigger exploits! For example, the demanding 99999999 gpt from the AI that has been fixed previously. I'm sure there may be something of that magnitude that hasn't yet been fixed.

The other example you quoted, Smirk, about wasting time interturn reassigning laborers from Science/Commerce to Production/Happiness is again unproven.....I don't think the switch to production would be significant....and the Happiness switch would come with a loss of food production. You have to make sure a city at the beginning of the "Interturn Cycle" will allow you to get in and change the Laborers again!
You're PROBABLY right...........BUT, the contra-arguments have not been sufficiently analysed, IMHO!

It's really a waste of time. I don't really know why on earth would anyone want to do it. I really don't see any fun in that at all. Even if they manage to squeeze out an extra thousand point in the end, is it really worthy? If anyone really want the top slot that bad, my top score is for sale. For a small amount of $, they can have the ownership of all my games and/or any games I have ever played. Btw, all my awards and medals at the GOTM are for sale too. If you know anyone want to buy them, please tell them to make an offer - much easier than spending those endless hours in reassigning laborers and/or specialists during the interturn. I'm just wondering if I can auction off my 81K slot on eBay. Do you think anyone will buy it? I have heard of people selling off their EverQuest accounts for thousand of $ (real US currency). I'm just wondering if a CivFanatic slot on the HoF worth anything? On the same thought, I wonder if I could auction off my civ knowledge on eBay. Basically, I will train any buyers for a top slot in the HoF or their money back (guarrantee of course). Who know, may be there is a real gold mine there on Civ and eBay? Btw, this idea is copyrighted. If anyone reading this manage to sell off your civ skill on eBay, please remember to share your profit with me.

 

[Gyathaar]

@Moonsinger: Can I sell your civ knowledge on ebay? I will give you 10% of the profits.. hehe

 

[Gyathaar]

Well, please keep in mind that the worker dogging is like a drop of water on the ocean. There are actually much bigger exploits! For example, the demanding 99999999 gpt from the AI that has been fixed previously. I'm sure there may be something of that magnitude that hasn't yet been fixed.

Ugh.. this thread made me look for loopholes, and I found one that stays within the rules as far as I can see, and it works in all versions of civ3, and actually works better in vanilla and ptw than in conquests....
Its not as powerful as demanding 99999gpt from the AIs, but it would be more powerful than most mentioned exploits.
Not sure if I should explain it

 

[Moonsinger]

So far, MapFinder has given me zero acceptable map (not event 1) after rejecting over 3000 maps. Look like I may have to drop some opponents. 15 AI civs seem pretty tough in finding good map. Anyway, I did play a quick warm up game tonight (I randomly generated this map without any help from MapFinder). I built the Pyramid from scratch and finished it by 1500BC. Two of my scouts got killed by barbs - unbelievable! Those barbs probably came from those huts popped by the AI. This is what I got so far for the score and the worldmap at 1000BC (only about half of what DaveMcW got at this point). Just two techs aways from the Middle Age.

 

[superslug]

Since there are just way too many gray area in C3C, I'm going back to the good odd PTW v1.27f now before I may accidentally break any future* rule in C3C.

I've studied your games rather thoroughly, both as a player and as a referee, and I've seen nothing that would lead me to conclude your games would ever be removed. I realize that I've reworded rule posts quite often, but it's been an attempt to clarify specific lines within the 'gray' areas. If it's been the opposite and lead to more confusion, I do regret that.

As Dianthus mentioned, I am fairly loathe to remove games, so you really don't have anything to worry about.

Perhaps YOU will support me in a future push to have a "Civ 4 Firaxis Rules Rule" or "No Rules" HOF (viz. A SEPARATE HOF where there are NO Rules.....whatever you can do with the game, in the game, is fine.....the Ultimate Level Playing Field!.....if you find a new exploit.....exploit it!!)

You'd still have to have a staff making sure mods/scenarios/artificial maps don't get used, otherwise there would be 4000bc conquest wins via ICBM launches and 100/100/1000 Uberspearman blitzes.

Unfortunately, my staff is far too busy for something like this, so you'd need someone else. Feel free to petition Thunderfall in Site Feedback if you get enough support.

(I realize that's a harsh response, but please give me some credit for calling it like I see it.)

All this green/amber/red/black stuff, hinting about legal but naughty techniques: what a tease.

A tease is usually a joke or prank of some sort. The rules on the other hand are quite serious given that they differentiate the play environment from fairness and chaos.

Most of the rules in HOF are well thought out, and from my perspective are mostly aimed at things that would require everyone to exploit if they were allowed.

I tend to agree. (This isn't an arrogant statement given that most of the rules were around before I took the helm.)

Also, I don't follow the logic on your choice of games, you aren't gonna play Conquests because you are concerned about future changes, but yet play PTW with the sole intention of exploting the palace bug, which is already banned in GOTM, but for some reason or other is not banned in HOF?

The Palace bug is quite legal for the HOF. I don't think there's a milker here who didn't use it at least once. As a matter of fact, milking seemed almost formulaic and a little boring back then. Run mapfinder, send Palace to nowhere, build lots of horsies, upgrade to Sipahi, die die die AI....

 

[boogaboo]

I know PTW has wonderful corruption exploits, but... why not C3C ?

I need one of your magic games to know the limits of {Large, Chief} or {Huge, Chief}, and I decided to insist milking only on C3C, so I was (almost) in heaven when I saw this thread... until I saw it is on PTW..

Have fun killing barbs

 

[Moonsinger]

I need one of your magic games to know the limits of {Large, Chief} or {Huge, Chief}, and I decided to insist milking only on C3C, so I was (almost) in heaven when I saw this thread... until I saw it is on PTW..

I think DaveMcW current milk with the Sumeria and early SGL should be a good baseline for comparision. At the moment, I think it would be impossible for me to beat his game. However, like everything else in life, it's just a matter of time before impossible turn into possible.

I'm switching to the Ottomans now. With the Rusians, it took 10 turns for a worker to chop a forest. At that rate, I probably will die of old age before getting any firewood.

PS: Thanks Superslug!

 

[EMan]

You'd still have to have a staff making sure mods/scenarios/artificial maps don't get used, otherwise there would be 4000bc conquest wins via ICBM launches and 100/100/1000 Uberspearman blitzes.

Unfortunately, my staff is far too busy for something like this, so you'd need someone else. Feel free to petition Thunderfall in Site Feedback if you get enough support.

(I realize that's a harsh response, but please give me some credit for calling it like I see it.)

Yes, I wouldn't expect the current HOF staff to run the "Firaxis-Rules HOF"....it would be a separate competition.

One question, since I'm pretty ignorant on vetting/modifying maps/cheating: If a Player has to provide the Map Seed Number(?), wouldn't it be reasonably easy to audit the 4000BC starting Map?
(I guess MapFinder could store this number with the other game details?)

The Rules would be basically anything you could do within the Civ game after generating a random map.....so "unauthorized" "mods/artificial maps" would definitely be a no-no. (I think acceptable scenarios/GOTM maps could be okay.) However, games/turns/moves could be replayed/reloaded.

The HOF List would be by Civ 4 version number. It's just an idea to provoke thought at this point. Thanks for entertaining it 'slug!....or, should I say, being entertained by it!

EMan.
P.s. When Civ 4 comes out, do you think it would be okay to post a "non-HOF" game thread in the HOF Sub-forum.....it would expose tactics/strategies that are NOT allowed in HOF games (current or future), highlight game bugs/exploits, give examples, and hopefully show the implications of a Rule ban or lack thereof? This I could do.

All for a good cause.....generating interest in the Real HOF!

P.p.s. Ohhhh, Moonsinger, hope you don't feel I've hijacked your thread (too much)....kinda got carried away....I need a good spanking!

 

[Moonsinger]

EMan: You sound like you know something that I know. If you think you know of what I know, you could email me of what you know. If it's the same of what I know, I will tell you everything that I know. It could also be that you don't really know about what I know, but you are trying to tickle me into sharing of what I know. Just wondering on how many times I could use the word "know" here.

P.p.s. Ohhhh, Moonsinger, hope you don't feel I've hijacked your thread (too much)....kinda got carried away....I need a good spanking!

Please treat my thread like your thread. Do as you wish! I really don't mind.