MORE BREAKING NEWS: The Kael Gang Goes Down!

Sarisin

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In another thread Sir Vorshlumpf challenged me to provide statistical and empirical data to prove my premise that the Armageddon Counter moved too quickly in Marathon and even some Epic games. With the assistance of CSI, Gil Grissom, on loan from the Las Vegas Police Department I submit the following for your review:

THE CRIME: The death and destruction of many AI and human civilizations. Oh, the humanity!

THE PROBABLE CAUSE: Too many barbarian cities are spawning too fast. Razing them causes the Armageddon Counter to rise too quickly in slower speed games. Bad people, like the Four Horsemen, arrive before suitable defenders can be recruited and the crime takes place.

THE SUSPECTS: Kael and an assortment of unsavory accomplices with funny sounding names you cannot pronounce. The Kael Gang.

THE EVIDENCE: Playing a game of version .23b on a Huge Fantasy map. Epic speed, Monarch, Hannah the Irin, Raging Barbs and Aggressive AI.

1. By the yr 222, the Armageddon Counter is already up to 22. Twos are wild. There have been no wars among civs. No Prophecy of Ragnarok has been built. No Ashen Veil. And so on. Only the raging barbs to blame.
2. I spotted a barb city three tiles away from the borders of my 2nd city. I sent two Hunters to raze the city. It took three turns for my Hunters to return to my city. Upon returning I noticed a new barb city (different name, those clever barbs!) had sprung up on the same location as the razed city. THREE TURNS!
3. After #2 I opened the World Builder and counted 16 barb cities, including Acheron’s city. As Sheelba and Rhoanna had already been destroyed, this was almost as many cities of the remaining 8 civs. Also, I counted (but may have missed a few) 12 city ruins. I am not sure if these were all from razed barb cities. Also, as in the case of a barb city being built near my border, cities can be built on ruins. But, let’s be conservative and say that so far there have been at least 25 barb cities before yr. 250. Isn’t that a bit much?

SOLVING THE CRIME: Here are two obvious suggestions that have been given before:

1. Reduce the rate at which barb cities spawn in slower speed games. Three turns is just crazy!
2. Decrease the rate at which the Armageddon Counter increases when a barb city is razed. Instead of 1, made it 3 barb cities razed = 1 on the Counter. Having the Sanctify spell (who has Adepts with Sanctify in early slower speed games?) can help a bit, but the AI never uses it and they raze most of the barb cities.

With this evidence in hand, a squad of Bannor Enforcers was sent to the Lair of the Kael Gang. Curly, Moe, and Larry were brought along in case bombardment or slapstick comedy was necessary. The perps were taken peacefully, and put in a Gypsy Paddy Wagon driven by Perpentach himself.

They were thrown unceremoniously into a Dungeon (-+--+-+--+1 Happiness and -40% Maintenance). They have a Deer and a Beaver ‘food’ resource in their cell, but let’s hope there is not a Blight. They will be tortured unmercifully by Taskmasters and Succubi until they agree to the solutions above and fix this game. If they refuse, Typhoid Mary will be brought in to sneeze on them.

Several prominent Law Bringers have protested their incarceration, but if Shadow is a bit late coming out, you will know why!

PS. Thanks for .23 and the media pack! :)
 
Reading title I thought 'Holy . .. .. .. ., whats going on' :p
Maybe barbs could count as evil - AV cities and not increase AC. Main prob is that usually they are 1 pop and they MUST be razed, since 1 pop cities are instantly razed. And since everyone attacks them, they don't live to see pop 2 city.
 
You'll never get me aliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiive!:mwaha:
 
First: great write up ;)

Second:
...
THE SUSPECTS: Kael and an assortment of unsavory accomplices with funny sounding names you cannot pronounce. The Kael Gang.
...

I wonder whos name you are talking about :rolleyes:
 
Lokionetwothreetwo? Or is it Lokitwelvethirtytwo? :)

Anyhow, funny writeup.
 
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I've never played FfH (waiting for BtS), but I saw this directly from the main forum index and thought, "whaaaaaaaat?"

Very nice write-up, Sarisin. :D
 
Was this a huge Fantasy_Realm map, Sarasin?
If so, being a completely wrapped map with little water, you should expect many barbarians and many barbarian cities. Especially if you don't max out rivals. That's why it's one of my favourite map types. I max out rival civs and still have tonnes of empty space for barbs to appear.
 
2. Decrease the rate at which the Armageddon Counter increases when a barb city is razed. Instead of 1, made it 3 barb cities razed = 1 on the Counter. Having the Sanctify spell (who has Adepts with Sanctify in early slower speed games?) can help a bit, but the AI never uses it and they raze most of the barb cities.

I believe the increase to the AC for city razing is something like Size/4 (with fractions rounded up), or possibly (Size/4) + 1 (with fractions rounded down). Maybe it should be (Size - 1)/4 or (Size - 1)/4 + 1. Then it would be 0 increase for size 1 cities, 1 increase for size 2 - 5, 2 for size 6 - 9, etc.
 
I believe the increase to the AC for city razing is something like Size/4 (with fractions rounded up), or possibly (Size/4) + 1 (with fractions rounded down). Maybe it should be (Size - 1)/4 or (Size - 1)/4 + 1. Then it would be 0 increase for size 1 cities, 1 increase for size 2 - 5, 2 for size 6 - 9, etc.

I like that even razing 1 pop city has effect. After all, in normal conditions creating that city takes a settler, so taking it town should have consequences. Only problem is that this doesn't work for Barbarians as they get those cities for free.
 
Was this a huge Fantasy_Realm map, Sarasin?
If so, being a completely wrapped map with little water, you should expect many barbarians and many barbarian cities. Especially if you don't max out rivals. That's why it's one of my favourite map types. I max out rival civs and still have tonnes of empty space for barbs to appear.

Yes, I only use huge Fantasy Realm maps in my games. I also use the default number of civs which is 10 including mine. In this particular game the barbs wiped out the Hippus and Clan of Embers leaving only 8 civs.

I actually tried your scheme, V. I tried to play the same conditions, but with 16 civs. I have to tell you that by the year 600 or so the map was just about filled with little room for barbs to spawn. I really lost interest as even the AGG AI feature wasn't working.
 
Just an update that emphasizes my point even more.

I ventured out and captured yet another barb city that spawned close to my borders. However, this time, when I used a Disciple of Leaves to expand my borders, a new barb city spawned the VERY NEXT TURN!

Again, IMO, this is just too much.
 
Epic game, huge map, Immortal level, raging barbs, 12 AI, year is 330 and AC is only 12. Fine for me!
 
Epic game, huge map, Immortal level, raging barbs, 12 AI, year is 330 and AC is only 12. Fine for me!

Try Marathon!;)

I play just about all my games at Epic now because Marathon has become unplayable. You have a total of 13 civs then?

As I mentioned, I play the default number of AI civs - 9, and in this game 2 already were wiped out.

There is no doubt that if you play more civs on your map the raging barbs (and also their plentiful cities) will not be as much of a problem and the AC counter will not increase as quickly. There is less open space for the barbs to have their cities pop up. Less barb cities equals less razing by ai civs and the counter slows down.

When you have time, please go to Marathon speed with 9 AI civs on a huge map and see what you get. I cannot imagine what Immortal difficult game would be like with these variables!
 
Why would you raze a city anyway? Just cottage it and it will pay its maintenance in no time no matter what civics you have. Add in city states and it will pay for itself if it works two river tiles.
 
Why would you raze a city anyway? Just cottage it and it will pay its maintenance in no time no matter what civics you have. Add in city states and it will pay for itself if it works two river tiles.

It's not his choice. It's the AI controlled civs and autorazing 1 pop cities that is the problem. Am I correct Sarisin?
 
This is all pretty standard stuff, I dont know why you would be seeing barbarian city pops like you are. I have never seen it, but I never play marathon speed games either.

Looking through the gamespeed files I did notice that we set the barbarian spawn rate to 300 (1/3 as slow as the normal game) where the default is 400 (1/4 as slow) for the marathon game speed. All the rest are as normal. I will switch that back to the default of 400 in the next patch and see if that helps.

ps. I got a good laugh from the first post, very funny :D
 
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