More Elephants: War Elephants

[The Kingmaker]

It makes me a little sad that only two civs can train elephant units. More civs utilized war elephants than just India and the Khmer.

No Hannibal crossing the Alps for us.

It doesn’t really make sense to me why it’s this way. Admittedly, they should be a less common commodity, but war elephants should be available to anyone with an elephant resource in their territory, or one they’ve traded for.

Chandragupta gifted Seleucus with 300 war elephants in exchange for Alexander’s Indian conquests, which were too remote for the Seleucids to properly govern anyway.

The King of Siam offered war elephants to Abraham Lincoln, which the president courteously declined.

Give us back our elephants!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I don't necessarily want War Elephants to be a common thing anyone could build. If that were the case it would make both India and the Khmer's unique unit feel less unique, in my opinion. That is also why I'm fine with the number of unique elephant units in game. At least they are beating the camels in that regard.

As for who would get another unique I agree that Hannibal would get them.
I'm pretty sure Siam or Burma would if they get in the game. Arguably so could Vietnam, my preference for SEA, but I'd rather them get a unique ironclad replacement, the Mong Dong, which would have greater combat strength in coastal water.

 

[The Kingmaker]

I don’t think they should common place, but I don’t think they should be as rare as they are.

If India and Khmer aren’t in your game, elephants don’t exist, and that’s not cool.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I don’t think they should common place, but I don’t think they should be as rare as they are.

If India and Khmer aren’t in your game, elephants don’t exist, and that’s not cool.

- Except, possibly, as an Ivory Resource - reducing Elephants to the object of Poachers in the long run!

I could see tying the ability to have an 'Elephant Unit' to having an 'Ivory' resource either exploitable or tradable. That means that both India and Khmer would have to be hard-coded to have Ivory within range of their starting position on all possible maps: If they start on a 2 - tile island one tile better have an Elephant on it, no matter what trick of teleportation was required to get him there!

On the other hand, 'opening up' Elephant units to anybody who has access to Elephants would allow a much wider range of Elephant units and elephant users. Historically, elephants were used in combat by:
Indian states from the Classical to the Industrial Era, mostly as platforms for archers, javelin-throwers and later musket men, and more rarely as Melee Units to charge and break an enemy line;
Burma - exclusively as "archer platforms" - up to 15 - 20 archers on seats hung from straps/ropes off the elephant, making them massive concentrated Firepower units;
Khmer, Siam/Thailand both used them as ranged and/or Melee-type units;
Seleucids and Ptomelaic Egypt both used them as close-combat units: even in city attacks to push in city gates (and city gates quickly came equipped with spikes sticking out of them so the elephants couldn't put their heads against them and push effectively). The Seleucids, as stated above, got their elephants from India, but the Ptlemies used the smaller African Forest Elephant from the north African coast, which the Romans later Gamed to extinction;
Several Central Asian states later; Ghaznavids, Timurids, used elephants, and the Moghuls and their successors even tried mounting light cannon on them.

That's a lot of variety to leave out of the game, but except for the Indian and Southeast Asian states, for all the rest the elephants were 'add-ons', not part of their basic tactical systems.

And I'm not a particular advocate of Hannibal = Elephants. He lost almost all of his elephants in the Alps, and his victories over the Romans were won by better tactics and using Mercenary Iberian and Gaulic infantry and superior Numidian light cavalry. IF Hannibal or a separate Carthage Civ needs a military unique, it should be an ability to hire troops from other states or City States or even Barbarians, rather than the ability to get a small percentage of elephants across mountains.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Do civs with cavalry UUs still need horses to train them? Is there a chance they might not get to build their UUs w/o them?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

And I'm not a particular advocate of Hannibal = Elephants. He lost almost all of his elephants in the Alps, and his victories over the Romans were won by better tactics and using Mercenary Iberian and Gaulic infantry and superior Numidian light cavalry. IF Hannibal or a separate Carthage Civ needs a military unique, it should be an ability to hire troops from other states or City States or even Barbarians, rather than the ability to get a small percentage of elephants across mountains.

Why not let an Elephant UU and the ability to convert barbarians be both part of Hannibal's ability allowing for another UU as well.

 

[steveg700]

I don't necessarily want War Elephants to be a common thing anyone could build. If that were the case it would make both India and the Khmer's unique unit feel less unique, in my opinion.

But they weren't all that unique. That's eurocentric thinking--using elephants as beats of war is unique because they were "only" used in Asia (mostly) and Africa (kinda). It's like wanting only a couple of civ's to have unique cavalry units.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

But they weren't all that unique. That's eurocentric thinking--using elephants as beats of war is unique because they were "only" used in Asia (mostly) and Africa (kinda). It's like wanting only a couple of civ's to have unique cavalry units.

Elephants were first used in the Indian subcontinent which is why they got in as their unique to India. The Khmer were known to have probably mounted ballistas on their elephants, at least shown in their artwork, which is why they got in as their UU.
As I previously mentioned I would have no problem if they included more for say Siam, Burma, or Hannibal for Carthage.
It's just a preference to me that I don't necessarily want to build a War Elephant when playing as Canada, America, the Netherlands etc. The only thing to differentiate a Varu from one is it would have be a ranged unit/or vice versa. Of course India could get always get a Fast Builder again.

 

[The Kingmaker]

If I’m playing as America in a jungle full of elephants, I’d like to be able to use them.

Maybe India and Khmer should get to have them even without the resource?

Enough civs used them that they shouldn’t be as limited as they are.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

If I’m playing as America in a jungle full of elephants, I’d like to be able to use them.

Maybe India and Khmer should get to have them even without the resource?

Enough civs used them that they shouldn’t be as limited as they are.

Would Ivory still be a luxury resource or would they change it to where Elephants become a strategic resource? Alternatively Ivory could go to a walrus resource but that might be more rare if they only would appear in tundra/snow tiles.
If it does turn into a luxury that can be used like a strategic resource it sounds like it could cause some problems due to the new GS resource mechanics, unless I'm not seeing something.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Would Ivory still be a luxury resource or would they change it to where Elephants become a strategic resource? Alternatively Ivory could go to a walrus resource but that might be more rare if they only would appear in tundra/snow tiles.
If it does turn into a luxury that can be used like a strategic resource it sounds like it could cause some problems due to the new GS resource mechanics, unless I'm not seeing something.

With the current Civ VI Resource System of rigidly differentiated Resources, making Ivory a Strategic resource would probably preclude it as a Luxury Resource. I think that the rigid differentiation is Hard Coded in some way - one of the Mod/Coder Community could say for sure: I know there are Mods that add Resources, but I don't think I've seen any that change the Class or Type of any Resource.

One possibility would be to change Ivory to either Walrus (a Coastal Tile Resource) or Frozen Mammoth (Tundra, Ice Resource) - Siberian Mammoth tusks were a major source of ivory in the 19th century, at least.

That would change the map dynamics of Luxury Resources, but not severely: there are several other Luxuries like Silk, Dyes or Spices that use similar terrain/climate tiles to what Ivory appears in now, so there wouldn't be any major degrading of access to Luxuries.

The really tricky part, because Start Location Preferences are so badly coded in the game (9 starting attempts with Nubia without a single Desert tile of any kind within a starting radius: 'nuff said) that requiring Ivory for a UU would in some or most games preclude getting the UU at all. As posted, a 'quick fix' might be to not require a Resource for the UU, which is not unknown in the Civ games.

Finally, just a note on the 'uses' of Elephants, some of which I posted earlier:

1. Heavy Cavalry-Type 'Melee' Unit - as used by Carthage, Seleucids, Ptolemies, with an Anti-Cavalry Bonus because horses not used to them are Absolutely Terrified of elephants.
2. Ranged Unit using elephant-mounted archers, as used by most of the Classical Indian states, Khmer, Burma. Could justify giving a slight Boost to the ranged fire, because the archers have a noticeable height advantage over even horse-mounted foes.
3. Siege Unit or a Siege 'Boost' in using Elephants to push in weak walls or gates, as used by the Ptolemies. This might better be a Promotion in a specialized Pachyderm Promotion Tree.
4. Medieval/Renaissance Ranged Unit mounting muskets, very light cannon, or catapults on elephants, as done by Siam, Mughuls, Gazhnavids, and Khmer. At this point, though, the Elephant is becoming marginal as a combat unit: too big a target, too smart to want to get shot at twice. On the other hand:
5. Elephants as cargo/supply animals. During WWII a lot of supplies were carried over the 'Hump' - the mountain roads between Burma and China - on elephant back, and elephants were used to haul heavy artillery in India and Southeast Asia. When the Elephant Combat Units become 'obsolete', access to Pachydermic Traction in the Renaissance/Industrial Era could still provide extra mobility for Bombards or Field Cannon: perhaps allow them to ignore movement restrictions on Hills.

 

[The Kingmaker]

With the current Civ VI Resource System of rigidly differentiated Resources, making Ivory a Strategic resource would probably preclude it as a Luxury Resource. I think that the rigid differentiation is Hard Coded in some way - one of the Mod/Coder Community could say for sure: I know there are Mods that add Resources, but I don't think I've seen any that change the Class or Type of any Resource.

One possibility would be to change Ivory to either Walrus (a Coastal Tile Resource) or Frozen Mammoth (Tundra, Ice Resource) - Siberian Mammoth tusks were a major source of ivory in the 19th century, at least.

That would change the map dynamics of Luxury Resources, but not severely: there are several other Luxuries like Silk, Dyes or Spices that use similar terrain/climate tiles to what Ivory appears in now, so there wouldn't be any major degrading of access to Luxuries.

The really tricky part, because Start Location Preferences are so badly coded in the game (9 starting attempts with Nubia without a single Desert tile of any kind within a starting radius: 'nuff said) that requiring Ivory for a UU would in some or most games preclude getting the UU at all. As posted, a 'quick fix' might be to not require a Resource for the UU, which is not unknown in the Civ games.

Finally, just a note on the 'uses' of Elephants, some of which I posted earlier:

1. Heavy Cavalry-Type 'Melee' Unit - as used by Carthage, Seleucids, Ptolemies, with an Anti-Cavalry Bonus because horses not used to them are Absolutely Terrified of elephants.
2. Ranged Unit using elephant-mounted archers, as used by most of the Classical Indian states, Khmer, Burma. Could justify giving a slight Boost to the ranged fire, because the archers have a noticeable height advantage over even horse-mounted foes.
3. Siege Unit or a Siege 'Boost' in using Elephants to push in weak walls or gates, as used by the Ptolemies. This might better be a Promotion in a specialized Pachyderm Promotion Tree.
4. Medieval/Renaissance Ranged Unit mounting muskets, very light cannon, or catapults on elephants, as done by Siam, Mughuls, Gazhnavids, and Khmer. At this point, though, the Elephant is becoming marginal as a combat unit: too big a target, too smart to want to get shot at twice. On the other hand:
5. Elephants as cargo/supply animals. During WWII a lot of supplies were carried over the 'Hump' - the mountain roads between Burma and China - on elephant back, and elephants were used to haul heavy artillery in India and Southeast Asia. When the Elephant Combat Units become 'obsolete', access to Pachydermic Traction in the Renaissance/Industrial Era could still provide extra mobility for Bombards or Field Cannon: perhaps allow them to ignore movement restrictions on Hills.

Love this. If only Firaxis would consider it.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The really tricky part, because Start Location Preferences are so badly coded in the game (9 starting attempts with Nubia without a single Desert tile of any kind within a starting radius: 'nuff said) that requiring Ivory for a UU would in some or most games preclude getting the UU at all. As posted, a 'quick fix' might be to not require a Resource for the UU, which is not unknown in the Civ games.

Before GS, I don' believe that UUs needed a resource at all and I wish they would go back to it, especially since some still don't require any.

 

[Galvatron]

I've been playing India recently and I think of this every time I play them. I don't want to see elephants added to the roster of all civs, but I don't want them to be limited to only two civs.

I think a good comprimise might be some city states that were famous for their mahouts... or whatever you call the non-Indian elephant riders... grant their suzerain the ability to train (or maybe only buy) war elephants, possibly of their only famous variety.

That would keep them esoteric, but not too limited. Possibly these could be added on to city states that are already in the game in addition to their suzerain status, so we don't need to add city states that SPECIFICALLY give you access to war elephants...

And while that idea's on my mind it makes me think that this would be a neat feature to add to other city states that were famous for specific types of mercenaries... but that's another topic.

 

[Henri Christophe]

I always thing the same thing. Why all civilization are alowed to have horses but not all are alowed to have elephants? The reason is also easy, because this game still very eurocentric.

The right is the elephant isn't be a replacement to horses, but instead be a unique unit by theyself.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I always thing the same thing. Why all civilization are alowed to have horses but not all are alowed to have elephants? The reason is also easy, because this game still very eurocentric.

Horses are Eurocentric? Horses were used in Asia and Africa before Europe.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Horses are Eurocentric? Horses were used in Asia and Africa before Europe.

That's true, the horse was used in North Africa, West Africa and Eurasia. But even civilizations who never had horses, as Zulus, Aztecs or Incas, are able to have horses.
If they can have horses why europeans civilizations can't have elephants? That's the point. A no eurocentric game should give elephants to all civs as horses having in all civs, because Elephants was well used across the Asia and North Africa, and just because it's not used in Europe that the game also don't have elephants to everyone... that's why it is eurocentric, because both animal was well used across the old word, but as elephants isn't well used in Europe, he is also not well used in this game.

 

[acluewithout]

You could make elephant units a Suzerain benefit for a Military City State. That would let everyone get them potentially, but not all the time, and avoid the need for a separate resource.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

You could make elephant units a Suzerain benefit for a Military City State. That would let everyone get them potentially, but not all the time, and avoid the need for a separate resource.

Several City States, actually. There were at least two, possibly three different species/sub-species of elephants used in human warfare (been doing some more research!):
1. The "Indian" or more properly, "Asian" Elephant, which in Classical and Pre-Classical times, ranged all the way from Southeast Asia across India to modern Pakistan. There were also elephants of this species in Syria, since Hannibal's personal elephant was named "Surus" - "The Syrian" and was larger than his other (North African) elephants. Since neither the Macedonians nor their predecessor Persians ever mention elephants in that area, I strongly suspect that the 'Syrian' elephants in fact were imported from India - the Seleucids and other non-Ptolemaic Successors were doing everything they could to access elephants from India, and that makes more sense than a bunch Syrian Elephants that were magically invisible until Hannibal's time - and then promptly went 'extinct'.
2. The North African Forest Elephant, sometimes called the 'Atlas' (as in Mountains) elephant. This was the smallest of the elephant species, only about 8 - 9 feet tall at the shoulder, and ranging all across North Africa from modern Morocco along the coast (which was somewhat better watered than now - it was a great grain source for Imperial Rome later). This is the one that provided most of Hannibal's and Carthage's elephants, and Ptolemaic Egypt's elephant Corps. - And the Ptolemies complained that they were not a match for the larger Indian Elephants used by their Seleucid opponents. This species went extinct under the Romans, who used them up in the circus games.
3. A probable sub-species of the North African elephant that ranged across modern Ethiopia and Sudan. It had the ear and back configuration of the African Bush Elephant but the small size of the North African breed. We have (yet!) no direct evidence that they were ever used in battle, and they also went extinct sometime around the first-second centuries CE. Since the peoples living in these areas had plenty of combat contact with Egypt and later Rome both of whom were familiar with Combat Pachyderms (and Ptolemaic Egypt used them in battle themselves) it would be almost inconceivable that having access to elephants that were tamable they didn't make use of them. But there are simply no direct surviving accounts of them either by visitors (Roman/Greek/Egyptian merchants, diplomats, etc) or any archeological (skeletal) evidence of their domestication.

So, IF we don't want to go the 'easy route' and make UUs not require Resources and simply provide Elephant UU for certain Civs, I suggest we might have at least two 'Elephantine' City States - one from Classical India and one from Classical North Africa that are not primarily associated with major Civs in either area.
My suggestions would be, for "African Elephants" either Msoura or Sirte, both suitably located outside of the 'mainland' of Carthaginian settlement, and one of the Vedic cities (pre-Gupta) in India like Kapisthala, Alitareya or Panini.

 

[EmJayLambert]

So I guess. Now we have three.