More independent cities!!! (and other suggestions)

[Louis XIV]

Hey all,

There are a few things about the 3000 BC that I think would make for improved game play as well as making the game historical.

1) Why is Plovdiv (Bulgaria) not in the game? Pretty much the oldest continually inhabited city in the world, Plovdiv should be added as an independent from 3000 BC (under its initial name Eumolpia). Then the Greeks (Philippoupolis), Romans (Trimontium), Byzantines (Philippoupolis), and Ottomans (Filibe)can all take it over.

2) Initial Settler/Warriors should be moved. First off, why Niwt-Rst is the main capital of Egypt (when Ineb Hedj is much more historical) and why Delhi is the first capital of India (as opposed to Multan since the original Harappan culture spread from the Indus Valley) I really don't know. And, even though China has been discussed ad nauseam, Anyang or Luoyang really should be the initial capital (Beijing should also be initially renamed Ji).

3) Anuradhapura (Sri Lanka) should be added as an independent in 3000 BC. This will lead to Sri Lanka actually being settled, either through cultural expansion from India or occupation by the European colonial powers.

4)Tondo (modern day Manila) should spawn at about 820 AD. Like Anuradhapura, this will make it much easier for China/Japan/Spain to settle the Philippines.

5) The odds of Babylon creating the Hanging Gardens should be increased.

and can we do away with the Moai statues? They weren't really built by any civ and I can't think of any ocean wonder to replace them. If it was possible to change the effects of the wonder, then the Terracotta Warriors would be a good replacement.

Thoughts?

 

[FakeShady]

hmm yeah more independants should be added but not just on the 3000BC start, but on the 600AD one too

 

[Louis XIV]

Agreed. Luoyang and Chengdu definitely need to be added.

Other cities that could possibly be added include Madurai (India - can change to Madras later), Sandra Pura (modern-day Jakarta), Palembang (Sumatra), Vishakapatnam (India), Sirmium (Byzantine), Cadiz (Byzantine), Philippoupolis (Byzantine), Thessaloniki (Byzantine), Hippo (Byzantine), Ctesiphon (modern-day Baghdad - Sassanid Empire), Kabul/Bamiyan (Sassanid Empire), and/or Herat (Sassanid Empire).

 

[Panopticon]

Why exactly do all those cities need to be added?

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

This will lead to Sri Lanka actually being settled, either through cultural expansion from India or occupation by the European colonial powers.

Like Anuradhapura, this will make it much easier for China/Japan/Spain to settle the Philippines.

QUOTE]

These two comments about adding independent settlements making it easier for the area to be settled are wrong, the reason there are so few independents in the mod is because the AI not only won't touch them but will stay a good distance away and certainly won't settle near them. This is a problem with the civ 4 AI, not RFC, however, that's why there are so few independents, if there were more the AI would just turtle like crazy even if it made no sense.

P.S.- If you want proof, you can add all these independents in worldbuilder and see what happens.

 

[Lone Wolf]

If AI's already have a strong empire, they are pretty good at dispatching the Independent cities. I play without the plague, though, maybe that places a role in my AI perception.

 

[dragodon64]

Agreed. Luoyang and Chengdu definitely need to be added.

Other cities that could possibly be added include Madurai (India - can change to Madras later), Sandra Pura (modern-day Jakarta), Palembang (Sumatra), Vishakapatnam (India), Sirmium (Byzantine), Cadiz (Byzantine), Philippoupolis (Byzantine), Thessaloniki (Byzantine), Hippo (Byzantine), Ctesiphon (modern-day Baghdad - Sassanid Empire), Kabul/Bamiyan (Sassanid Empire), and/or Herat (Sassanid Empire).

Madurai is not the same city as Madras, the latter dates back to 1640 whereas the former dates back to the 2nd millenium BC. Also, Madurai is a big city in India today, why would it need to be renamed?

The reason India spawns on the Ganga and not the Indus is becasue Gangetic civilization from the Vedic period, which is a mix of Dravidian and Aryan, is the foundation for most south Asian cultures. Basing India off of Mohenjo-Daro would be like basing Turkey off of Hattusas.

Cities like Cadiz, Thessaloniki, Hippo and Ctesiphon are the responsibility of the respective civs to found. There is nothing independent about them. For the others, even though historically speaking it might be okay, gameplay suggests otherwise. I know from experience, because I had at one point added a dozen or so independents to the 3000BC map, and every old world civ was horribly stunted by the spawn of the Arabs.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Actually, rather than Luoyang and Chengdu, in 3000 BC what should be added (if not already built) are tribes up north (Xiongnu, Xianbei and Wuhuan) that posed a significant threat to Chinese dominance. In fact, around 300-400 the Wuhu (5 barbarian) rebellion essentially displaced a lot of Han Chinese down south.

600-800 AD was a golden age for the Chinese (Tang Dynasty), too bad Rhye has it so that you're just starting out with settlers and small cities. However, the Liao Dynasty under the Khitans were a significant threat to Tang and Song Dynasties, and so were the Jurchens, so an independent city up north in Manchuria (before the Mongols show up) will represent accurately that threat.

Moai Statues can be added to Easter Island in the 600 AD start (the natives can't really use it because of unhealthiness and it'll never grow beyond a size 1 city).

 

[fireclaw722]

I would actually like to see Tunis and a native settlement in the Americas in the 600 AD start. Also an independent Lisbon to deter the Spanish from settling so close to the Portugese spawn site. I would also like to see some Independents to simulate the Japanese city-states up until the 1500's(If the Independents were at war with each other than we might see some more intresting scenarios, also Japans start spot could be moved to Tokyo/Edo). I agree about the Chinese Independents(China becomes way to powerful and destroys the Mongols, thats why they never conquer China or anything else for that matter).

 

[Cethegus]

5) The odds of Babylon creating the Hanging Gardens should be increased.

I solved this by changing the prerequisite technology from Mathematics to Masonry. Now the ones to get the Gardens are either the Egyptians or Babylonians.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Are they also the founders of Confusianism?
What we need is for the Chinese to discover Mathematics first but not try and build the HG, so maybe add another pre-req tech only for the HG which will be Masonry, not for the whole tech.

 

[Zagoroth]

Why would we change Japan's start point? It is a-historical. I think that we need to have either all civilizations start on their original locations, or start where they are now, not mixing them up.

 

[Leoreth]

Are they also the founders of Confusianism?

I don't know how Cethegus' solution would affect Confucianism at all.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Well Mathematics is the founding tech for Confucianism so in most games China is the first to discover Math and founds it, and if he changed the tech so that Babylon or Egypt gets it first then they are supposed to also found Confucianism.

 

[Cethegus]

Well Mathematics is the founding tech for Confucianism so in most games China is the first to discover Math and founds it, and if he changed the tech so that Babylon or Egypt gets it first then they are supposed to also found Confucianism.

The change I suggested only affects the chances of Babylonians building their respective world wonder. If Rhye had wanted it so that the Babylonians are quick (and eager) to research Mathematics, he wouldn't have made it the birth-tech of Confucianism. With the suggested change the Babylonians will neither be the first to research Mathematics or prioritize it in any way. Coding that goes well beyond my modding spectre.

What made you think that I meant overhauling an entire tech in the first place? Changing a building's prerequisite tech is located in an entirely different file.

 

[fireclaw722]

Why would we change Japan's start point? It is a-historical. I think that we need to have either all civilizations start on their original locations, or start where they are now, not mixing them up.

Well I thought the same but I was tired of seeing Japan with Kyoto as it's capital and having cities in such stupid places(They could fit 6 cities on the Main Japanese Island)(out of all the AI's I think the Japanese one is the stupidest one of them all).

I also see that sometimes the Italian Independents aren't... well... Independent. They are almost always under control of some European civ, such as Germany or France. I also would like to see a Byzantine Naples, Tunis, and a city on Sicily. Bagdad sould be an Independent on the 600AD start with the Hanging Gardens, and there should be Rhodes with the Collosus(However it's spelled).

 

[BurnEmDown]

Oh woops, I thought you meant you changed the pre-reqs for Mathematics to Masonry, not the hanging gardens.
That really is a good change since not only as you said Babylon and Egypt should build the HG most of the times but it also makes this wonder much stronger as the extra health is harder to come by prior to mathematics (aqueducts).

 

[lumpthing]

I support more independent cities in the Malay Archipelago in particular. Years ago I did a helpful little map showing where the cities are and when they should appear: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=191290

This was a heavily populated area with many cities long before any kind of colonization, so I always found it weird that it's an empty land in RFC.

Rhye never said why he didn't put any cities there, but I'm wondering if maybe the Europeans won't colonize those areas if there are cities already there.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Well, Europeans in RFC don't usually colonize Malay Archipelago except Papua Guinea.

 

[blizzrd]

Actually I find that the Euros are better at conquering independents than founding cities for themselves.

Take the west coast of Africa for instance. Mbanga Congo spawns as an independent city on the south-west coast at some point around the 1700s. I've seen every Euro including Russia, Germany and Vikings conquer this city. But I've never seen the AI found a city on the SW coast of Africa.

Same goes for civs which collapse to independents. When Russia collapses, civs such as Portugal and Spain are quite happy to send forces all the way to the top of the Ural Mountains to conquer a useless little independent city.

Could it be because the AI are always at war with the two Independent nations and thus find it easier to fight a war againt independent cities?