[submod] Cross' Overhaul: New Civs, Shia Religion, More Wonders, Civics Rework, Crusades and Much More!

[CrossRFC]

Hey, does this mod change anything with colonisation? I see all these lovely new civs that I'd love to do some alt-colonisation with, but if they can't get the trading company then their eco is fated as well as any other non-traditional colonial civ.

The bonus armies from Trading Companies, for the human player, only affect the same ones as in vanilla (Spain, Portugal, France, England, Netherlands, if I remember). For the AI, there are more of these bonus armies, and for more civs (like Yemen or Oman). Some of the new civs have settler/war map values in colonial areas as appropriate for the civ's history.

 

[banzay13]

As i rmb you don't lose cite if civ born and you solid? I was solid with Iroquois, but still lost Detroit and Columbus to USA
EDIT. And can Iroquois GA start after city was razed for stability reason?

 

[CrossRFC]

As i rmb you don't lose cite if civ born and you solid? I was solid with Iroquies, but still lost Detroit and Columbus to USA

No, it's that if a civ is flagged as an independence civ, it won't spawn if all of its flip area city owners are Solid.

However, America is not even flagged as an independence civ at the moment. I will probably update that though.

 

[banzay13]

No, it's that if a civ is flagged as an independence civ, it won't spawn if all of its flip area city owners are Solid.

However, America is not even flagged as an independence civ at the moment. I will probably update that though.

As I rmb, Leoreth said America will spawn anyway, but only in core area. Columbus is in core, for sure, but don't rmb is Detroit at core.
I have checked - Detroit in historical area
EDIT. And also, can Argentina use unlimited generals for GA (same as Burma with GP)? with new Eiffel Tower effect, it could help for UHV (and now Eiffel tower mostly build by Russia - good luck with capture it)
EDIT2. It's 1807AD and i still get Spain conquers in Mexico

 

[Lokki242]

I know I've made a few tentative suggestions for civs before, but I have a more concrete idea in mind that I think fits this mod (and particularly its emphasis on the Classical and early Medieval periods) well! The Xiongnu -- also representing the Xianbei and Rouran, who can also respawn (between 900-1150) as the Khitans/Great Liao and Kara-Khitai.

I think this would do a number of things. It ensures a more populated Tarim, Manchuria, and Mongolia to a degree that greater lines up with history--and a Xiongnu/Xianbei (and the Khitan revival!) would compliment the more dynamic China in this mod. Besides China, it also gives the Turks someone else to play off of in their early game, as would be accurate since the First Turkic Khaganate sprang from the Rouran. The potential threat of the Kara-Khitai also gets around the Turkish safety from barbarians while helping to push the transition to the Seljuks more naturally. It's actually a current marathon game as the Turks in your mod that really solidified this idea, as my efforts to loosely trace history led me to realize there was no natural or authentic way for me to 'lose' my eastern territory as would be historical without China really stepping up their game. A Khitan/Kara-Khitai respawn could also be another major player for the Mongols to contend with (though this might require some spawn flipzone changes). Barbarians would still play a major role in the region, to pressure the existing civs and even the Xiongnu/Xianbei.

All of the below is just a suggestion and loose outline, if you like this idea at all I fully expect you to tweak it of course! All of this is based on my (not extensive) understanding of the history of proto-Mongolic and proto-Turkic confederations in the Steppe, with UHV ideas trying to balance their history as nomadic raiders, a large steppe polity, Sinicization, their development of the first great horseback confederations, and the decentralized but expansive authority of entities like the Rouran.

Xiongnu Confederation
Spawn: 220 BC at Ordu Baliq/Otuken
Leaders: Modu Chanyu, Mugulü, Taizu (Respawn)
UU: Steppe Raider (Replaces horse archer or horseman, double gold on pillaging, double move on steppe, starts with Flanking I and II) Could possibly also have hidden nationality but at this point it risks just being an Oghuz again.
UB: Artisan Farrier (Replaces Stable, needs a better name, +2 Culture and +1 on Horse) Based on the regional and cultural history of horsemanship alongside artisan and complex saddle and bridle designs, both from a practical and aesthetic standpoint, and the key role of horses in both economy and culture
UP: Gaining a culture level spawns X free Steppe Raiders
Core: Mongolia
Historical: Tarim Basin, Manchuria, Northern China, Qinghai, Zhetsyu, Dzungaria, Ili
A variety of potential UHVs (some could be combined):

1. Control X Mounted Units by 100 AD
2. Acquire X gold through pillaging by 100 AD
3. Acquire X Horses, X Jade, and X Sheep by 200 AD
4. Control X% of territory by 300 AD
5. Conquer XX number of cities by 420 AD
6. Acquire X vassals by 550 AD
7. Build 6 Tengris Obos, 4 Buddhist Stupas, and 2 Confucian Miaos by 600 AD
8. Something to do with tribute? Like get X number of resource tributes by 550 AD--essentially a more complex version of the vassal UHV, and adding in war concessions as an option

I'm happy to help workshop names or titles for stuff if needed as well (or for other things for this modmod), or to just leave it here for your consideration. Thanks as always, Cross

 

[CrossRFC]

I know I've made a few tentative suggestions for civs before, but I have a more concrete idea in mind that I think fits this mod (and particularly its emphasis on the Classical and early Medieval periods) well! The Xiongnu -- also representing the Xianbei and Rouran, who can also respawn (between 900-1150) as the Khitans/Great Liao and Kara-Khitai.

This is a pretty good idea and has enough scope in size and time to be viable. I'll add it to the queue.

As I rmb, Leoreth said America will spawn anyway, but only in core area. Columbus is in core, for sure, but don't rmb is Detroit at core.
I have checked - Detroit in historical area
EDIT. And also, can Argentina use unlimited generals for GA (same as Burma with GP)? with new Eiffel Tower effect, it could help for UHV (and now Eiffel tower mostly build by Russia - good luck with capture it)
EDIT2. It's 1807AD and i still get Spain conquers in Mexico

Spain still having colonial conquerors in 1807? What did its tech progression look like? It must have been pretty backwards, since its colonial conqueror techs are Optics, Geography, Combined Arms, Urban Planning.

I'll give Russia a disincentive to build Eiffel Tower, which would be preferably built somewhere in Western Europe.

 

[banzay13]

EDIT. And can Iroquois GA start after city was razed for stability reason?

Also UP could be abused - capture -order raze - leave city - recapture - order raze again etc...

Spain still having colonial conquerors in 1807? What did its tech progression look like? It must have been pretty backwards, since its colonial conqueror techs are Optics, Geography, Combined Arms, Urban Planning.

It was Urban Planning that cause conquest event in that year

I'd love to do some alt-colonisation

It's possible

Spoiler Hopefully Mary Cassatt had enough time to paint a picture - The Rise and Fall of the USA :

 

[banzay13]

I know I've made a few tentative suggestions for civs before, but I have a more concrete idea in mind that I think fits this mod (and particularly its emphasis on the Classical and early Medieval periods) well! The Xiongnu -- also representing the Xianbei and Rouran, who can also respawn (between 900-1150) as the Khitans/Great Liao and Kara-Khitai.

I think this would do a number of things. It ensures a more populated Tarim, Manchuria, and Mongolia to a degree that greater lines up with history--and a Xiongnu/Xianbei (and the Khitan revival!) would compliment the more dynamic China in this mod. Besides China, it also gives the Turks someone else to play off of in their early game, as would be accurate since the First Turkic Khaganate sprang from the Rouran. The potential threat of the Kara-Khitai also gets around the Turkish safety from barbarians while helping to push the transition to the Seljuks more naturally. It's actually a current marathon game as the Turks in your mod that really solidified this idea, as my efforts to loosely trace history led me to realize there was no natural or authentic way for me to 'lose' my eastern territory as would be historical without China really stepping up their game. A Khitan/Kara-Khitai respawn could also be another major player for the Mongols to contend with (though this might require some spawn flipzone changes). Barbarians would still play a major role in the region, to pressure the existing civs and even the Xiongnu/Xianbei.

All of the below is just a suggestion and loose outline, if you like this idea at all I fully expect you to tweak it of course! All of this is based on my (not extensive) understanding of the history of proto-Mongolic and proto-Turkic confederations in the Steppe, with UHV ideas trying to balance their history as nomadic raiders, a large steppe polity, Sinicization, their development of the first great horseback confederations, and the decentralized but expansive authority of entities like the Rouran.

Xiongnu Confederation
Spawn: 220 BC at Ordu Baliq/Otuken
Leaders: Modu Chanyu, Mugulü, Taizu (Respawn)
UU: Steppe Raider (Replaces horse archer or horseman, double gold on pillaging, double move on steppe, starts with Flanking I and II) Could possibly also have hidden nationality but at this point it risks just being an Oghuz again.
UB: Artisan Farrier (Replaces Stable, needs a better name, +2 Culture and +1 on Horse) Based on the regional and cultural history of horsemanship alongside artisan and complex saddle and bridle designs, both from a practical and aesthetic standpoint, and the key role of horses in both economy and culture
UP: Gaining a culture level spawns X free Steppe Raiders
Core: Mongolia
Historical: Tarim Basin, Manchuria, Northern China, Qinghai, Zhetsyu, Dzungaria, Ili
A variety of potential UHVs (some could be combined):

1. Control X Mounted Units by 100 AD
2. Acquire X gold through pillaging by 100 AD
3. Acquire X Horses, X Jade, and X Sheep by 200 AD
4. Control X% of territory by 300 AD
5. Conquer XX number of cities by 420 AD
6. Acquire X vassals by 550 AD
7. Build 6 Tengris Obos, 4 Buddhist Stupas, and 2 Confucian Miaos by 600 AD
8. Something to do with tribute? Like get X number of resource tributes by 550 AD--essentially a more complex version of the vassal UHV, and adding in war concessions as an option

I'm happy to help workshop names or titles for stuff if needed as well (or for other things for this modmod), or to just leave it here for your consideration. Thanks as always, Cross

If Sui goin well, they will conquest them quickly and HA barbs also very powerful force in this area, don't think Khitans can survive. And here another problems - some cites ob Silk Routes can be razed. Maybe they need half of Turic's UP (mounted barbs don't enter while in peace)

 

[banzay13]

Look like if you play India - Ghurid will always spawn (even if Arabia fail do something), unless you Solid. And it's problem for reaching UHV3. If you go early for Tamil cites - you'll be at most Stable (coz OE) and Ghurid will born. So you waste time and more important - pop. Cites has no time before UHV deadline to grow back. If you want go for Tamils and stay Solid (with civis combination), Ghurid don't spawn ad after 970AD you can go for Tamils. But, again, Tamils cites will not get enough time to grow. I was controlling Burma and Herat - and max got 19,2% (almost all my cites grow to max pop) and with vassals (Khmer and Vietnam) - 21,27 (it doesn't count for UHV). And in my game China was so-so, not perfect, if China will be good, UHV became even harder. World much more populated in this modmod. Maybe adding vassal's pop to UHV3 will be good? Or you need go with war much further(in China, Korea, or ME...)

 

[robocon]

I think Korean spawn can benefit from minor tweaks, currently spawns in Hanseong, but historically is more important city was Pyongyang.
I think it makes more sense to represent early Korea as Gojoseon with Capital in Wanggeom-seong (modern Pyongyang), with Confucianism spread.
Wirye (near Seoul) can spawn as an independent city (to represent Jinhan confederacy, and then Baekje in the "3 Kingdoms" period in Korea), with Buddhism spread.
Silla can also be represented as indy (capital Seorabeol "close" to modern Busan in current map scale)

This way, we can better capture the Gojoseon and Goguryeo influence in Manchuria.
Historical Silla unification with help of Tang can be represented either by:
- Korean conquest of Seoul and Busan
- OR respawn of AI Korea from Busan (if earlier) to represent Unified Silla
- OR from Pyongyang to represent Goryeo

Korea can also benefit from more dynamic names depending on its territorial control.
I'm also curious why they have a bad tech rate, they were among the more innovative relative to population size, viz a viz contemporary Yamato.

 

[Lilna]

I think Korean spawn can benefit from minor tweaks, currently spawns in Hanseong, but historically is more important city was Pyongyang.
I think it makes more sense to represent early Korea as Gojoseon with Capital in Wanggeom-seong (modern Pyongyang), with Confucianism spread.
Wirye (near Seoul) can spawn as an independent city (to represent Jinhan confederacy, and then Baekje in the "3 Kingdoms" period in Korea), with Buddhism spread.
Silla can also be represented as indy (capital Seorabeol "close" to modern Busan in current map scale)

This way, we can better capture the Gojoseon and Goguryeo influence in Manchuria.
Historical Silla unification with help of Tang can be represented either by:
- Korean conquest of Seoul and Busan
- OR respawn of AI Korea from Busan (if earlier) to represent Unified Silla
- OR from Pyongyang to represent Goryeo

Korea can also benefit from more dynamic names depending on its territorial control.
I'm also curious why they have a bad tech rate, they were among the more innovative relative to population size, viz a viz contemporary Yamato.

Pretty sure their tech penalty is mostly a balance thing. Korea's UP is EXTREMELY powerful, and combined with their willingness to trade techs it was making them the global tech leader by a wide margin in most games at one point.

 

[banzay13]

Can be Kazan add to Bulgarian historical area? Not much sence for game, as it very very very rare case then Bulgarian cupture barbarian Kazan, but for some historical education? (wait, why this sity in their historical?)

Volga Bulgaria - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[CrossRFC]

Busy at the moment, but reading the feedback.

 

[banzay13]

Played Buyid game. 1UHV is very luck based. Then i started - there already 4 city with culture above/near 6000k (India, China, Armenia, Madrid) and Baghdad had 300 culture, so i was need 2 GA, there was no other way. Usually Seoul have pop 19 at this moment, and it's hard to grow Baghdad to 1250 so big ((Arabia culture will eat all possible area for Baghdad, so don't foget raze 1st Babil city on lagoon, and try collapse Arabia fast) but manageable. And there always Plague around 1220AD). Also you can steal North Persian cites from Turic then they get conquers (not before, if you don't want war) And 5 shrines can be luck based - sometimes Orthodox holy city can be in Europe, and Shia - in Maghreb (if so - reload). I think 600AD (then time will come) game will be much easy for Buyid. Started army is weak (+1 more cats atleast needed) so build army first and hope Arabia collapse fast, and gor for Holy cites after it, don't let anyone capture it.
Maybe 1UHV can be wonders goal in Baghdad (witch require strong culture also). Also you can go for Indian holy cites (as i did), you will always play under big OE, i was collapsing several times, so don't foget settle Siraf (your most pop city and capital) and Naeyn later . With 7 shrines ander my control i was able enter Industrial era in 1613AD. So, maybe UP a bit OP. Maybe 3% discount for each shrine can be enough. Iran didn't spawn (i suppose it's intended) so maybe more beyond Industrial Era goals as UHV3 can be added?
UB is cool and help in game, but maybe another UB with food bonus in Persia can be added?

Also, if you contact Mongols in Tarim Basim area - there will be no conquers from them. I don't know, if is intended or no. If you meet them in India - they will attack.

Another idea for late China - can Forbidden Palace, after enter Global Era - also reduce cites maintenance? Since State Party don't have such bonus now, and China AI really need it.

Shia URV - can it be achievable (30%)? Shia has much less historical area, than Suni, even spread Suni islam is hard now (coz Shia also spread). Maybe only with Arabia you can spread Shia to 30%. (i have tried it with Misr, Oman...)

EDIT. As Anglo-Saxon survive as vassal of French and start settling America and atc, will they get conquers for India?
and one more - Protestanism now found quite early - 1350-1400, and sometimes even 1300AD. HRE not much ahead usually in tech overall (late Renessance - early Industrial), but look like they heading for Academy right at start

Spoiler Some fun :

 

[BaneFire]

The bonus armies from Trading Companies, for the human player, only affect the same ones as in vanilla (Spain, Portugal, France, England, Netherlands, if I remember). For the AI, there are more of these bonus armies, and for more civs (like Yemen or Oman). Some of the new civs have settler/war map values in colonial areas as appropriate for the civ's history.

Would be super cool to enable trading company armies and the trading company company for other civs!

 

[cudfather]

Can be Kazan add to Bulgarian historical area? Not much sence for game, as it very very very rare case then Bulgarian cupture barbarian Kazan, but for some historical education? (wait, why this sity in their historical?)

Volga Bulgaria - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Right at the top of that Wikipedia article you're quoting there's this disclaimer: Not to be confused with Bulgarians or Bulgarian Turks.
Bulgars ≠ Bulgarians, they were proto-Bulgarians, they mixed with Byzantine and Slavic peoples and became Bulgarians over a couple of centuries.

If you want to reflect the Bulgars' journey in the core map, there's more interesting territory to think about:

Spoiler Old Great Bulgaria :

 

[miccal2000]

Hello!

Getting a series of python errors at the start of every turn, attached save is example.

Thanks for the incredible mod!