More of a rant

[Old Fox]

I have had some rather unpleasant experiences with the game and was wondering if others had similar experiences, and what they felt about them...

I had one game that I was playing as regeant where we were in the modern era on a huge map. I was the No. 2 civ at that point. Babs was the No. 1 and had a HUGE military, some 300+ units. Babs also had a huge culture that I set out to deal with.

Babs initiated the war and I was dead set to finish it. I allied with several other civ's and financed their participation. The idea was to take the heat off me long enough to take babs big cultural centres. Babs had been in conquest mode for some time and had a zillion cities sprawling over 2 large continents.

I was doing well, and had taken over probably a third of babs, considering his recent conquest of the french. Now here is where the problems started. I was just taking over his big cultural centres when the crap hit the perverbial fan. His main military force was at the far side of the continent, no big deal with railroads. But I had taken those out at a strategic choke point with my navy. Just a short delay.

So I take over a size 28 metropolis with Newton's University. Moma raised no fool, so I bombard the snot out of this place and it is size 11 when I walk in with 50 odd land units plus artillery. I set all workers to entertainers and the 6 resisters are down to 2 by the next turn. I managed to capture this city with many imps intact, including the airport. This is kinda handy and I ferry in more artillery and lots of bombers, fighters, helicopters and paratroops. We're are talking a serious war here. Anyways, I am going to use this as a staging post for these approx 100 units.

Now, let me point out that I have the intelligence agency, and spies in babs. I know exactly what his make up is and that he has less than 100 gold. He is bigger, but I am more powerful. I have mech infantry, modern armor and radar artillery and he doesn't.

So anyway, this city reverts. Hello??? 100 units (including 50 odd ground units) cannot quell 2 resisters??? I lose all my units??? What gives??? If babs had nuclear weapons, he couldn't have gotten a better result using 4 of them!!! That is SO LAME. SO CHEAP!!!

So, I take the joint back next turn and it is down to a size 4 city with no resisters. I garrison the crap out of it again. (I need the staging area) There is some 60 or so ground units in the city, but no airport, hence no airforce now....

Next turn it reverts again!!! Hello???? Do not military units count??? There goes the offensive edge of my military and babs wins the game....

That is just TOO LAME... I was so disgusted with the game at that point I just about threw it out! Monitor and all...

Rant #2: Why is AI not restricted to one square/turn in my territory as I am in theirs??? How come they can show up 12 squares behind my lines in a single turn??? IE: Beyond their borders and within mine. We are talking conquered territory here... Grrrrrrr!!!

Rant #3: I have intelligence agency with spies out, so I know the english have no money (0 gold) and 2 infantry and 2 bombers in a particular coastal city. I know that they should not be able to see more than one square off their nautical limits, so I feel it is safe to move my battleships within 2 squares of their limits for fast strike purposes. They have no navy in the area, so I should be safe right? No navy and no fighters for recon? WRONG!!!! they bomb the crap out of my battleships and I have to retreat.... HELLO??? How did they know I was there?

I don't like when people cheat and I really hate when AI cheats. It really takes the enjoyment out of the game.

Anyone had similar experiences?

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

to add to it:

If I use a fighter to recon, then bomb the ship/land/unit - why does it disappear from view?????
I can`t bomb a second time in the same turn?????

I play a game where I let every civ alive - one city each. They are not even literate, I have Infantry.
My elite Cav, modded with HP bonus (13 HP) attacks n archer in the open (plains, 6 HP). It kills the Archer with 2 HP left.
Rinswe and repeat (seed save is off): out of 25 figths I loose 2, narrowly win 15, easily the rest. None, where my Cav isn`t hurt.

Firaxis: is there a combat bonus for the AI when seriously out-teched??????
I know there isn`t, but I start to wonder!

 

[allhailIndia]

I've had this problem of a culture flip a lot of units in the cities. However, in Killer's case, the huge cultural advantage of the Babylonians really blew him there. However, I agreee it is stupid that a city with more troops than citizens should culture flip. i think they ought to develop a patch where if no of units in city >2*no of resisters/foreign individuals, it is not possible to culture flip.

 

[Dinorius R.]

I think you have a right to rant. You play the game intelligently and it just slaps you down with a cheat. I would be angry too if it happened to me.

The only thing I can suggest (to Old Fox) is to cheat back and use one of the auto-save games and play that bit again but keep your main force outside the city in case it flips. Only move them in when you have built a lot of culture and had a bit of population growth.

Still, you must be steaming mad, and it's warranted I think.

 

[Cunobelin Of Hippo]

Are you playing with an up-to-date patch? I believe Firaxis did something about problems like that one in v1.16 or something

 

[Tassadar]

You didnt understand that civ 3 is made to annoy human player not to give him fun to play.
1.- be peacefull and you got every a.i. against you
2.-be warmonger and raise city, than you got bad reputation and all the a.i. agaist you again.
3.- try to capture a.i. city ? it will flip back within 2 turn.
4.- Try to eliminate an a.i, they will reappear from nowhere with brand new palace, money, worker and settler.
5.- that s why i stop playing this crappy game.

 

[chiefpaco]

Why is everything that happens in the game that makes a human suffer a setback a "cheat"? You can do exactly the same thing!

If they had attacked your cultural centre & garrisoned their units in there, they would have lost them too under a culture flip. There is a distinction between cheating & the way the game works.

I also assume you are not using the latest patch, because they have made changes, increasing the # of units that can counter a culture flip.

My other advice is to build more cultural improvements so cities flip to you, not against. Also, knowing that you lose your units in this way, place them on a hill or mountain by the city, not in it, and you won't lose them. Civ3 was made to make it tougher to expand by military force alone. You must use a combined force of culture and military.

#2. There are many ways an opponent can sneak into your territory. Perhaps they used unclaimed spaces to sneak in. Perhaps they used another Civ's friendly rails to go around. Maybe you didn't notice them there before. Maybe they used a transport to move them.

 

[simwiz2]

i use 1.21, and i garrison all captured cities with 2x the population in ground units. And fortunately i have not had one flip. If something like that ever happened to me, with all those units not being able to stop those few people, civ3 would probably be off my computer very fast.

And one of the patches is supposed to have given military units the ability to completely supress revolts. So if the # needed is more than 50 for 11, then firaxis may as well have left it out period. Because i am not going to garrison 5X the population. It will not make the game harder, just make me move more units around, increase tedium, make modern game unplayable. So if you are playing with all the patches, then what happened sounds like an AI cheat.

 

[etj4Eagle]

I do agree that if Old Fox is using the latest patch, then something does appear to be a bit out of wack. Since one would think that 50 ground units could maintain order against 13 foreignors (resistors counting double). However, we also have the issue of how much accumulated culture that city has. It sounds like from your description that it probably held a lot and that it may have been wiser to drop that pop to 2 before taking it.

Also, I am wondering why anybody still garrisons large armies in newly acquired border cities. We know that they may flip. But some old units and a good defender in the city to quell and protect it. But keep your attack force outside. If any are hurt send them back to a rear city for healing (and once you have rails this is quite douable with no loss in time, just make sure to bring a pack of workers to repair/extend rail lines along your attack route).

 

[gonzo_for_civ]

Lol

THis is just too funny!

They have no navy in the area, so I should be safe right? No navy and no fighters for recon? WRONG!!!! they bomb the crap out of my battleships and I have to retreat.... HELLO??? How did they know I was there?

Are you sure there weren't any submarines?

Rant #2: Why is AI not restricted to one square/turn in my territory as I am in theirs??? How come they can show up 12 squares behind my lines in a single turn??? IE: Beyond their borders and within mine. We are talking conquered territory here... Grrrrrrr!!!

How's about a save file, I've never seen that.

So anyway, this city reverts. Hello??? 100 units (including 50 odd ground units) cannot quell 2 resisters??? I lose all my units??? What gives??? If babs had nuclear weapons, he couldn't have gotten a better result using 4 of them!!! That is SO LAME. SO CHEAP!!!

I don't want to accuse, but you sound like one of those people who ranted about the patch and never installed it. If you use an updated patch, no city with 50 units would EVER flip.

Next..

1.- be peacefull and you got every a.i. against you
2.-be warmonger and raise city, than you got bad reputation and all the a.i. agaist you again.
3.- try to capture a.i. city ? it will flip back within 2 turn.
4.- Try to eliminate an a.i, they will reappear from nowhere with brand new palace, money, worker and settler.
5.- that s why i stop playing this crappy game.

1-3: Try playing with a balance and take out more than one city at a time to remove cultural pressure.

4: This can be turned off as of 1.21f

5: Then why are you wasting your time by ranting here about it!

Next....

If I use a fighter to recon, then bomb the ship/land/unit - why does it disappear from view?????
I can`t bomb a second time in the same turn?????

Granted, but shouldn't that perfectly valid point be listed in a suggestions thread instead

I play a game where I let every civ alive - one city each. They are not even literate, I have Infantry.
My elite Cav, modded with HP bonus (13 HP) attacks n archer in the open (plains, 6 HP). It kills the Archer with 2 HP left.
Rinswe and repeat (seed save is off): out of 25 figths I loose 2, narrowly win 15, easily the rest. None, where my Cav isn`t hurt.

Actually, even though those stats seem WAY off they are only off by a little. Trying to kill something with 6HP without losing a single HP is rather hard. Even if you have an advantage. Losing two units is pretty bad though.

Next...

The only thing I can suggest (to Old Fox) is to cheat back and use one of the auto-save games and play that bit again but keep your main force outside the city in case it flips. Only move them in when you have built a lot of culture and had a bit of population growth.

Bad idea.. ever heard of the auto-save bug.....??

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

@ chiefpaco:

I have yet to see a heavily garrisoned city flip back to me. I tend to watch how many units the AI puts in a city when they take it from me - after all I want it back!

Hardly ever did any flip back (even with my cult = 3 * theirs!), but then they usually had 2 to 5 units in there. never Bombers. I often used savegmae + spy to make sure and it seems the AI has a very good feel for flip risks (as it has for domination) - and I`d like an option that tells me hard numbers! A simple pop-up giving a percentage (with say 10% error) when I move the mouse on the city icon!

@ gonzo:

I posted something about the "lost" recon long ago - noone reacted so i thought I was crazy.....
same for winning units losing move on going back to starting field if they can`t advance, but retreating keeping move. I thought it intentional - and opened a bottle of champagne when it was fixed in 1.21!

As for the combat stuff: I`ve been keeping a list for a long while, not win/loss but also HP win loss. All in all, using normal combat calc, I come out at aroung 47% in win loss, but only 36,9 % (!!!) in HP - which means I have lots of 1 HP retreats that I loose to counterattacks! Way more (~ 1/3) than should be! It`s OK, I just don`t take triple the troops I need, I take 5 times, but still annoying, especially to newbies.

I also keep a list of 'important' vs. 'unimportant' fights (like 1 attacker 1 defender is important, 50 Cav against 2 Separmen it doesn`t matter if I loose the first ten fights.
Result so far: out of 177 battles I should have won as important (i.e. vet. Warrior vs. fortified vet Spearman in city) I won 89 - well!
Out of 98 I should have lost, I won 54 - good!
Out of 413 that were ~ 1:1 (vet Archer vs vet Spearman fortified in city) I won only 133 - ouch! since it means I win less than half despite the advantage of terrain bonus and fortification bonus!


I Know this is very rough, and I guess I`m just unlucky, but this must be rather frustrating for less experienced players. I after all have been playing civ ever since it came out, and I played a lot of games and steadily worked my way up the difficulty ladder - but what about newbies????? They *will* feel cheated, and I don`t blame them!

 

[gonzo_for_civ]

Yeah, I agree killer. It seems that sometimes things just don't turn out the way they should. Oh well, it adds some challeng and excitemement to the game

 

[Dinorius R.]

Originally posted by gonzo_for_civ
Bad idea.. ever heard of the auto-save bug.....??

Well, no I haven't.

Would you care to enlighten us on yet another bug in this game? Tell us exactly why we can't use Auto-Save to replay an episode we didn't like because of all the counter-intuitive crap that happens in Civ3.

 

[gonzo_for_civ]

I'm not 100% sure on the auto-save bug or even if they have fixed it, but it caused some weird stuff to happen in games loaded from autosaves. Try searching back in this forum to see if you can find stuff on it. Or do a search using the forum's search feature.

 

[etj4Eagle]

On the autosave bug, all I remember hearing about it was that some people thought that the AI only traded during your turn if you loaded from an autosave. But this was not true, for those versions where the AI was allowed to trade during your turn, it would do it whether or not you used an autosave.

 

[Dinorius R.]

so....the Auto-Save bug is more myth than reality it seems.

That's good to hear. It means our original poster (Old Fox) can use it to re-write the bad bit of history in his game and not lose the 100+ units from a culture flip (that's assuming he didn't really throw his computer out the window in frustration first)..

 

[damunzy]

Originally posted by gonzo_for_civ
Yeah, I agree killer. It seems that sometimes things just don't turn out the way they should. Oh well, it adds some challeng and excitemement to the game

You call it excitement I call it frustration....but I have seen battles that I should not have won but have. I am a firm believer that humans remember the bad things more than they remember the good.

And I think that Old Fox must have thrown his computer away.
So what patch is it Old Fox?

 

[Sullla]

Originally posted by Killer
Out of 413 that were ~ 1:1 (vet Archer vs vet Spearman fortified in city) I won only 133 - ouch! since it means I win less than half despite the advantage of terrain bonus and fortification bonus!

Archer vs. spearman fortified in a city is NOT 1:1 combat. The spearman gets a +25% bonus for being fortified, and another +25% bonus for being in a city of size 6 or less (even higher if in a larger size city). That means the combat is 2att vs. 2.5 def, which helps explain some of your results.

Auto-save bug was fixed in the 1.17f patch; the AI can no longer trade on your turns when reloading from an autosave.

And the AI always has knowledge of the whole map at all times; I believe that it's necessary for the programming in some way. They can always see all resources, and know where your units are in wartime that they shouldn't be able to "see". They also love to give each other ROPs, so don't be surprised to see units coming from weird directions when war breaks out.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Sullla


Archer vs. spearman fortified in a city is NOT 1:1 combat. The spearman gets a +25% bonus for being fortified, and another +25% bonus for being in a city of size 6 or less (even higher if in a larger size city). That means the combat is 2att vs. 2.5 def, which helps explain some of your results.

Sorry, Sulla, should have put that more explicit: *my* spearman defending against *his* archer, so better than 1:1 for me!

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by Killer
Hardly ever did any flip back (even with my cult = 3 * theirs!), but then they usually had 2 to 5 units in there. never Bombers. I often used savegmae + spy to make sure and it seems the AI has a very good feel for flip risks (as it has for domination) - and I`d like an option that tells me hard numbers! A simple pop-up giving a percentage (with say 10% error) when I move the mouse on the city icon!

I would not even ask for a full hard number. Just a rough guess from the local governor would make me feel much more involved in the game and lot less feeling that I'm just a toy in the hands of Goddess Randomness.
Let's say that each city would have a "loyalty meter", green for "loyal", yellow for "quiet", orange for "troubled" and red for "about to revolt".