Most Improved Civs and ones most hurt by BNW

[JacobIzKewl]

So for civs that were not added in the expansion who do you think was most improved or most hurt. For example, I thought france's new bonuses make them a lot better in BNW because of the tourism output, or Greece because of the power city states afford thanks to the world congress. Whereas ethiopia or polynesia appear to be harmed because of the emphasis removed from culture.
Also, what do you think about strict money making civs (i.e. inca, dutch) who have no trade route bonuses in BNW?

 

[digrosz]

Polinesia isn't hurt, because with hotels, moai=tourism=gg.
Also, i don't think any civ is really hurt, but there are still some really bad civs.
Maybe Germany is the one most hurt, because of the Zulu and the Reformation belief that lets people convert barbs.

 

[VainoValkea]

I don't think Greece improved that much - in fact quite the opposite as influence can be obtained very cheaply in the late game (when it counts the most) by ideological perks. I'd say the same applies to Sweden, although the AI seems a bit more eager to declare friendships which could make up for it. Donating a few GPs to get 90 influence would be much more powerful if the same effect couldn't be achieved by spamming some cheap infantry and gifting them instead (Arsenal of Democracy).

I think England was improved a bit (better ships gives them an edge in founding WC and extra spy can be used as a diplomat to help with tourism).

 

[GlassCitadel]

Chinese paper makers can give gold and science. Since gold is more scarce, this becomes more important.

 

[SnowKomodo]

Maybe Germany is the one most hurt, because of the Zulu and the Reformation belief that lets people convert barbs.

That isn't an argument in favor of how Germany is hurt. That's just saying certain parts of Germany's Uniques somewhat overlap with Zulu and a seldomly picked Reformation Belief

 

[VainoValkea]

Well, there is a new civ that does what Germany does, only better. I dare say that hurts Germany.

 

[GlassCitadel]

Germany has -25% for all units, Shaka has only -50% for melee.

 

[VainoValkea]

Oh yeah, that's right - except Germany's bonus applies only to land units, not navy nor air force. I somehow thought Shaka's bonus was -50% for all land units.

 

[SnowKomodo]

Well, there is a new civ that does what Germany does, only better. I dare say that hurts Germany.

-Zulu does not get a gold chance from barbarian encampments, nor units from there
-Zulu still has to pay maintenance for siege and ranged units, Germany does not
-Zulu does not have the Panzer

There are so, so many partial overlaps in the game. People only seem to be nitpicking this one because the wording is obvious

 

[georgie]

In my opinion, France is also better because they can easily produce much more than the two culture per city of Ancien Regime with Chateaus. Granted, it isn't right at the beginning nor automatic, which was much of its appeal in Vanilla & BNW. However, the gold (which can now be tight) & tourism plus having multiple of them makes up for it.

 

[georgie]

Forgot about that their UA is pretty much geared towards a single VC. there is that...

 

[knighterrant81]

Early game gold is a big deal, so civs with gold advantages seem more powerful - Morocco, Arabia, Zulu, etc. Feels like Civ 4 again!

Archery units > melee in the early game (same as they were in G&K), so civs with early Archery UUs are still really strong (except Egypt maybe, their UU is nothing special). They still haven't fixed the fact that mounted units are made almost totally useless by the ubiquity of Spearmen/Pikes in the early game. China, England, Maya should still be strong, as they were in G&K.

Science seems much less powerful, so Science focused Civs don't look quite as swell as they did in G&K (Babylon, Korea, maybe growth-focused Civs as well).

Religion takes quite a bit more conscious effort than it did in G&K, so Religious civs get a big bonus (Byzantium, Celts, etc). Same goes for culture.

All in all: BNW is a great time to be a Tall, Archery or Gold/Culture/Faith-focused Civ, and a bad time to be an Iron-based aggressor or extremely science-focused.

 

[Evie94]

Carthage has been improved massively with the Free Harbours acting as Caravanasseries for Sea Trade Routes

 

[HeraldtheGreat]

I don't think Greece improved that much - in fact quite the opposite as influence can be obtained very cheaply in the late game (when it counts the most) by ideological perks. I'd say the same applies to Sweden, although the AI seems a bit more eager to declare friendships which could make up for it. Donating a few GPs to get 90 influence would be much more powerful if the same effect couldn't be achieved by spamming some cheap infantry and gifting them instead (Arsenal of Democracy).

I think England was improved a bit (better ships gives them an edge in founding WC and extra spy can be used as a diplomat to help with tourism).

Sweden is ridiculously amazing now. Before, you could maybe get 50-60% bonus on Huge if you steer clear of war and play the cards right. Now, the A.I. offers a DOF 30 turns after you exchange embassies.

You also have something much better to do with those GWAM if you run out of Great Work Slots.

 

[VainoValkea]

I don't know, that 90 influence seems like pittance now that influence can be conjured easily with the appropriate Freedom tenets. I didn't know the AI was that willing for DOFs though! In my last game the only ones who offered me DOFs were Carl Gustaf Gustav Adolf whom I refused to keep my own lead and Bismarck the Beaten, who had been reduced to a single city by Assyria (and was later erased completely).

EDIT: wrong king, heh

 

[HeraldtheGreat]

I don't know, that 90 influence seems like pittance now that influence can be conjured easily with the appropriate Freedom tenets. I didn't know the AI was that willing for DOFs though! In my last game the only ones who offered me DOFs were Carl Gustaf Gustav Adolf whom I refused to keep my own lead and Bismarck the Beaten, who had been reduced to a single city by Assyria (and was later erased completely).

EDIT: wrong king, heh

Still, it let's you go Order for those larger tourism boosters and lets you steal City-States from your one or two enemies.

 

[VainoValkea]

True, indeed. I should try order next, I'm getting a bit too comfortable with Freedom.

 

[superliminal]

Forgot about that their UA is pretty much geared towards a single VC. there is that...

I think BNW has done a good job though of integrating culture more effectively into the broader game. You can accrue massive quantities of social policies with the French, and, just having played a game with them, an expansionist game with them would be quite fun. You could force other civs into your ideology with your high culture and conquer those that failed to adhere, meanwhile shipping back stolen great works to Paris to take advantage of the doubling bonus.

 

[Matthew.]

Civs with bonuses to gold seem to be indirectly stronger due to less gold in early game. For example in G&K paper makers were decent but nothing special. Now it is like a whole 2 gold?!?! Amazing!!! lol...

Funny that there is a lot of talk of Germany being weak in BNW. I agree the barb part of UA has always been... odd, but overall I find that they are stronger in BNW due to similar reasons as gold Civs. People are finding it more difficult to fit in caravans and such into build orders, but Germany gets a small bonus by being able to get military from barb camps, which leaves cities free to build caravans and such instead.

 

[VainoValkea]

I think Germany should've been revamped into a trade civ for BNW. We have enough warmongers already, but only Morocco and Venice for trade route specialists.