Mountain Tiles

[Funak]

Even without ocean rifts?

Meant with the base-settings as he didn't mention changing them

 

[Damirith]

I just think God of the Sea would be a good fit for it. You know how many freakin times I have played Japan and have only gotten like 1 Fishing tile? I hate Japan because of how unlucky I have been with getting any of the tiles that works well for them. Especially with no iron, it sucks so much not being able to build trebuchets. I have pretty much started to avoid playing Civs who are based on specific tiles because oh how unlucky I have been of getting those tiles, and when I do get them its like 1-2 while I see the AI start in like the best areas for them.

I just have never seen any area on any map that had a crap ton of fish and atolls since I dont mess around with all the additional map settings. If it was more common I could see against it, but since I am a "regular of normal maps" I dont think it would become broken by adding atolls.

 

[Funak]

I just think God of the Sea would be a good fit for it. You know how many freakin times I have played Japan and have only gotten like 1 Fishing tile? I hate Japan because of how unlucky I have been with getting any of the tiles that works well for them. Especially with no iron, it sucks so much not being able to build trebuchets. I have pretty much started to avoid playing Civs who are based on specific tiles because oh how unlucky I have been of getting those tiles, and when I do get them its like 1-2 while I see the AI start in like the best areas for them.

I just have never seen any area on any map that had a crap ton of fish and atolls since I dont mess around with all the additional map settings. If it was more common I could see against it, but since I am a "regular of normal maps" I dont think it would become broken by adding atolls.

God of the sea adds 2 production in all coastal cities, even if you don't find any fish that is still pretty good.

I've seen plenty of locations with 7+ fishtiles or multiple atolls+fishtiles.
Once I even picked Places of power just because my capital had access to 4 atolls. To be honest it's probably one of my most picked pantheons, but that's mostly because of desert-starts.

 

[Llednar Twem]

God of the sea adds 2 production in all coastal cities, even if you don't find any fish that is still pretty good.

I've seen plenty of locations with 7+ fishtiles or multiple atolls+fishtiles.
Once I even picked Places of power just because my capital had access to 4 atolls. To be honest it's probably one of my most picked pantheons, but that's mostly because of desert-starts.

...You don't pick desert folklore in a desert start? I guess that thing DOES need a buff. Anyway, I really can't see God of the Sea becoming particularly overpowered just by adding the ability to give its +1 faith to atolls. They're sea resources. Give them to God of the Sea. It just makes more sense. Then you can turn "Places of Power" back into "Sacred Waters" and give it a coherent direction of "freshwater stuff".

 

[Funak]

...You don't pick desert folklore in a desert start? I guess that thing DOES need a buff. Anyway, I really can't see God of the Sea becoming particularly overpowered just by adding the ability to give its +1 faith to atolls. They're sea resources. Give them to God of the Sea. It just makes more sense. Then you can turn "Places of Power" back into "Sacred Waters" and give it a coherent direction of "freshwater stuff".

Atolls are as much "sea resources" as lakes are "Land resources"
And no I never pick desert folklore, I think the extra gold is pointless and that's the only thing it does. Even if places of power only gives you 6 faith or something like that you still get one happiness for every city, which is nice.

 

[Llednar Twem]

Atolls are as much "sea resources" as lakes are "Land resources"

Um...I agree? I'd call a lake a land feature since it's defined as a lake because of the surrounding land. It's certainly not a sea feature.

 

[Funak]

Um...I agree? I'd call a lake a land feature since it's defined as a lake because of the surrounding land. It's certainly not a sea feature.

See, that's the difference.

 

[Llednar Twem]

It's A difference, sure. I wouldn't call it a significant one. Not enough to warrant the exclusion of atolls from God of the Sea. If atolls could have other resources on them like some other features then stacking would be an issue...but they can't, so they might as well just be thought of as a bonus resource.

 

[Funak]

It's A difference, sure. I wouldn't call it a significant one. Not enough to warrant the exclusion of atolls from God of the Sea. If atolls could have other resources on them like some other features then stacking would be an issue...but they can't, so they might as well just be thought of as a bonus resource.

Or we could just keep them with Places of power? We just need a third thing for it if we remove the mountains.

Atolls, Oasis and what?

 

[Natura]

...You don't pick desert folklore in a desert start?

I've never picked Desert Folklore in CPP; the nerf I feel was too extreme. It went from pretty much the strongest pantheon belief to one of the weakest; I feel there may have been a bit of a over-nerf due to how good it was in BNW.

On topic for mountains, I would like to see them given something, as right now they're useful as military blockers and that's about it. Perhaps Mountains could function like the Oasis and give all tiles around them access to fresh water? Mountains are the source of a hell of a lot of the world's water supply.

 

[Llednar Twem]

Or we could just keep them with Places of power? We just need a third thing for it if we remove the mountains.

Atolls, Oasis and what?

Lakes are what I've been suggesting, which makes it entirely freshwater-focused aside from the random atolls. River cities, oasis, and lakes. It looses one tile type overall, but lakes are common and powerful, so that should make up for it. I really don't understand why you prefer a haphazard, jumbled pantheon to a focused one. To be clear, I'm suggesting the following:

Sacred Waters: +2 from lakes and oases, +1 in cities on rivers.

God of the Sea: +2 in coastal cities, +1 from atolls and improved sea resources.

Places of Power: +4+2 from mountains and natural wonders.

 

[Delekhan]

I agree that the +2 science on mountains is just plain silly. There's no reason to work them if that's all they provide. I'd rather have the +10% modifier on observatories back, it presented a tough choice whenever I settled a city in a region where a mountain was present, and that was fun.

Now it's just a meh building, to be created if I have nothing else to build.

 

[Funak]

Lakes are what I've been suggesting, which makes it entirely freshwater-focused aside from the random atolls. River cities, oasis, and lakes. It looses one tile type overall, but lakes are common and powerful, so that should make up for it. I really don't understand why you prefer a haphazard, jumbled pantheon to a focused one. To be clear, I'm suggesting the following:

Sacred Waters: +2 from lakes and oases, +1 in cities on rivers.

God of the Sea: +2 in coastal cities, +1 from atolls and improved sea resources.

Places of Power: +4+2 from mountains and natural wonders.

2 Faith from lakes is too much, I'd make it 1. but you're still short one tile on that. It used to be Oasis Atoll Mountains, can't change it to just oasis lakes.

 

[Finarvi]

I like these numbers except places of power: believe me, I used my mountain tiles even for their weak 2 . That +4 and +2 bonus is way too high. What's more, I usually pick Places of Power because of my cities' placement and this would make it even harder to consider something else

It could be: Places of Power: +4 +2 on Natural Wonders; +2 +1 on mountain tiles.

 

[Damirith]

Sacred Waters: +2 from lakes and oases, +1 in cities on rivers.

God of the Sea: +2 in coastal cities, +1 from atolls and improved sea resources.

It could be: Places of Power: +4 +2 on Natural Wonders; +2 +1 on mountain tiles.

I like this

I also wouldn't mind seeing mountains go from +2 to like +4 , but these pantheon changes are a good start to making mountains have more of a point than just building a few wonders and the observatory.

 

[Llednar Twem]

2 Faith from lakes is too much, I'd make it 1. but you're still short one tile on that. It used to be Oasis Atoll Mountains, can't change it to just oasis lakes.

...Those two sentences explain each-other. +2 on lakes is fine because of the lost tile. The lost tile is fine because +2 on lakes is strong.

As for mountains, I just figured it would HAVE to be really strong since they do literally nothing else. 2/1 just seems like a waste of whoever is working it. Still, actual numbers are easily tweaked once the main idea is implemented.

 

[Funak]

I like this

I also wouldn't mind seeing mountains go from +2 to like +4 , but these pantheon changes are a good start to making mountains have more of a point than just building a few wonders and the observatory.

I'd rather just remove the mountain-science on the observatory, if that mountain-pantheon gets added this is going to be impossible to balance, I mean 4 science 4 faith 2 culture is natural wonder level yields, pretty insane.

...Those two sentences explain each-other. +2 on lakes is fine because of the lost tile. The lost tile is fine because +2 on lakes is strong.

Except they don't lakes can spawn in piles of 8, that's 16 free faith from one city, it's insane. You're lucky if you can get 3 oasis into the same city's range, and even luckier if there is enough oasis left for your next city to be worth it.
This belief was balanced around Atolls and Oasis usually never spawning in the same place (and mountains being useless )
Can you still build tradingposts on marshes btw? Because that's a decent last feature.

As for mountains, I just figured it would HAVE to be really strong since they do literally nothing else. 2/1 just seems like a waste of whoever is working it. Still, actual numbers are easily tweaked once the main idea is implemented.

If we get rid of the Observatory we could make the mountainbonus into 2 food 2 faith, making the tile food self-sufficient in food while still providing some faith. However if you want to balance it around the observatory existing you probably have to lower the yields even more.

 

[Llednar Twem]

Except they don't lakes can spawn in piles of 8, that's 16 free faith from one city, it's insane. You're lucky if you can get 3 oasis into the same city's range, and even luckier if there is enough oasis left for your next city to be worth it.
This belief was balanced around Atolls and Oasis usually never spawning in the same place (and mountains being useless )
Can you still build tradingposts on marshes btw? Because that's a decent last feature

...they can? I've never seen one bigger than four tiles. That sounds amazing. Also unlikely. A lot of pantheons would probably be ridiculous in completely ideal circumstances. Balancing around a rare best-case scenario doesn't strike me as reasonable.

As for marshes, I don't think so. I'm pretty sure when last I tried it didn't work. So only poldors can go on marshes without removing them.

 

[Funak]

...they can? I've never seen one bigger than four tiles. That sounds amazing. Also unlikely. A lot of pantheons would probably be ridiculous in completely ideal circumstances. Balancing around a rare best-case scenario doesn't strike me as reasonable.

You're telling me you've never had a city with more than 5 lake-tiles in workable range?
5 lake-tiles would provide as much faith as 10 plantations with the plantation pantheon. Not to mention that the lakes don't have to be improved.

And I'm using 5 and 7 lake-tiles as reasonable averages. I've had cities with 15 workable lake-tiles within range.

As for marshes, I don't think so. I'm pretty sure when last I tried it didn't work. So only poldors can go on marshes without removing them.

Thought so

 

[Llednar Twem]

Huh. I guess I've just had really weird luck. I wouldn't even really call that BAD luck necessarily, just odd. Anyway, I guess we're just of different minds in regard to how effective pantheons should be. I see no problem with getting 10 faith from using five pop to work five lakes. It sounds more like the plantation pantheon needs a buff to me.