Mountain yields

[the_fish]

Runes of Kilmorph believes in worshipping the earth or some deity/set of philosophies related to the earth which leads to mining and what have you. The Khazad. RoK lore has a lot to do with mines and resources of the earth. The fact that their exists a good synergy between the Khazad and RoK proves nothing. There exists an even better synergy between the Clan and RoK. Does it therefore follow that the Clan should get mountain yields?

Since this argument is about lore, let us look at Khazad (not RoK, it is a completely separate entity) lore. Nowhere in Khazad lore does it state that they mine or work in the mountains. What Khazad lore does make clear is that they have been effectively exiled from the surface for trying to explore it in the first place. Various excerpts go on to depict a Khazad society that is fighting to survive and thrive off of the riches of the surface, not the riches buried deep underground.

I mentioned RoK as both it and the Khazad have the same patron angel, Kilmorph (Earth). I agree that the synergy is irrelevant, though you have to wonder why it's there in the first place.

I doubt your claim about the Khazad lore not mentioning mining/working in the mountains, but I'm reasonably sure it doesn't explicitly say that they don't. The Khazad worldspell gives you gold for every mine in your territory. They like mining.

http://fallfromheaven.wikia.com/wiki/Khazad <-- not sure how accurate this is, but it suggests that they weren't exiled from underground, more that they reached the limits of underground expansion so ventured onto the surface. They also definitely have the expertise necessary to mine mountains.

Ok after chatting some in #erebus here are some additional arguments against it.

A citizen specialists gives +1 hammer. So for it to be actually worth it, the peaks would have to give +2 Hammers, that's the same as an Engineer can give, and they are rare most of the game. (Not counting the GPP). And that sounds like too much to me. (And if you go to 3 it's starting to be too much like a hill)

And they can't be pillaged/blocked by most units. Which is really powerful.

This is a good argument against high constant yield. It doesn't address cottage-like upgrading with a mine (3 ), or bonus hammers from techs.

Even if we let it be constant 2, I'm not sure such an unimproveable tile that doesn't provide GPP is that much of a bonus. It's still not a great tile.

To be useful, you'd want 3+, which is why I liked the 'n turns, get a mine' idea. 'n' can easily be varied so you'd need significant 'citizen' investment to get more production later. This fits with peaks being mostly inaccessible - you'd plunder the foothills first, and then get the resources underneath the mountains after significant effort.

The lack of pillaging/blocking is another factor that can be balanced around, and does not destroy the idea.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

If you read the lore in the same wiki or in the pedia about the khazad leaders, one of them was exiled for some perceived treason iirc, and they took some of their buddies/clan with them. Keep in mind that the dwarves still have their mining aspect. They can still mine the mountains and hills a plenty, just not the everests, killiminjaros, and Mt. Dooms and other high Peaks.

 

[Giga-Gigan]

This is a good argument against high constant yield. It doesn't address cottage-like upgrading with a mine (3 ), or bonus hammers from techs.

Even if we let it be constant 2, I'm not sure such an unimproveable tile that doesn't provide GPP is that much of a bonus. It's still not a great tile.

To be useful, you'd want 3+, which is why I liked the 'n turns, get a mine' idea. 'n' can easily be varied so you'd need significant 'citizen' investment to get more production later. This fits with peaks being mostly inaccessible - you'd plunder the foothills first, and then get the resources underneath the mountains after significant effort.

The lack of pillaging/blocking is another factor that can be balanced around, and does not destroy the idea.

Actually despite being on your side, I must question how we would implement such an idea. If peaks were not to have tangible improvements, how would we track and update the yield of the peak based on the amount of turns it was worked?

 

[Honor]

If you read the lore in the same wiki or in the pedia about the khazad leaders, one of them was exiled for some perceived treason iirc, and they took some of their buddies/clan with them. Keep in mind that the dwarves still have their mining aspect. They can still mine the mountains and hills a plenty, just not the everests, killiminjaros, and Mt. Dooms and other high Peaks.

The tiles do not only represent the peaks, they are mountains with peaks. And the hill tiles are just hills, not skirts of mountains.

 

[the_fish]

If you read the lore in the same wiki or in the pedia about the khazad leaders, one of them was exiled for some perceived treason iirc, and they took some of their buddies/clan with them. Keep in mind that the dwarves still have their mining aspect. They can still mine the mountains and hills a plenty, just not the everests, killiminjaros, and Mt. Dooms and other high Peaks.

Ah, I think I misread what you wrote. I thought you said "nowhere does it say the Khazad mine OR work in the mountains", when you probably meant "...the Khazad mine or work in the mountains". They blatantly mine, but maybe not in the mountains.

Still, doesn't say they don't . They know how to, and it's not as if every peak is filled with angry, Khazad-hating deep dwarves (though this would explain why they're impassable).

Actually despite being on your side, I must question how we would implement such an idea. If peaks were not to have tangible improvements, how would we track and update the yield of the peak based on the amount of turns it was worked?

As cottages work, either the tile struct or the improvement struct has a 'counter' field that keeps track of how long the tile has been worked (if relevant). This can be hijacked, as peaks can't be improved anyway.

Assuming it's the improvement struct, then whenever the cottage check happens, a virgin peak tile worked by a civ gains an invisible improvement. This steadily counts turns worked until it reaches a threshold, whereupon it's permanently replaced by a mine. (if it's the tile struct then this can be achieved without the invisible improvement)

To stop other civs working mined peaks, there would need to be a check in the yield calculation, reducing it to zero if the civ isn't dwarven. This can be implemented in a similar way to Rhye's Incans getting extra peak yield:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=307019

(this can also give Khazad/Luchuirp the initial +1 without need for an extra tech or whatever)

 

[PotatoOverdose]

You do realize that a mountain range isn't a series of peaks right? And a hilly area doesn't consist of uniform bumps in the land. In fact, the distinction between hills and mountains is a completely artificial construct. The reality is, they flow into each other rather fluidly as a result of tectonic activity and calling something a mountain and something a hill is just drawing a line in the sand. Naturally, you can't express this in a game made up of square tiles. Also, mountains come in various shapes and sizes, some have a very broad base which, if one were to convert to civ tiles, would best be represented as a peak surrounded by hills. My point is what passes for mountains and hills in civ is not necessarily what passes for mountains and hills in the real/or imaginary lore world and should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Honor]

And my point is that it is more intuitive to assume "peak" tiles are mountains with peaks and hill tiles are hills. Hill tiles could be realized as an area of non-uniform bumps in the land lower than a certain height threshold (say, 500 meters), and an area with higher average altitude could be realized as peak tiles. As for mountain ranges, they still have higher and lower altitudes of land with better or worse accessibility. A peak tile in the game could still contain skirts with good accessibility and mining opportunities. Dwarves working peak tiles does not necessarily mean they are working the peak.

 

[WarKirby]

Does anyone think it's odd that Kael is suspicuously absent from massive balance discussions that divide the community?

I think he's secretly superman.

 

[lordrune]

I fail to see how the numbers thrown around here could upset balance. There are always going to be better tiles or specialists to work, with food and commerce to throw into the mix. Some numbers I've seen put the best-case scenario (dwarfs with end-game techs) as being similar to a Guild of Hammers great engineer specialist, without GP points or any specialist-related bonuses.

So I don't see any compelling reasons to oppose the change. On the other hand, I don't see any compelling reasons to put it in either - in the early game I'd never have my citizens working a mountain tile when there will always be far better options elsewhere - and in the late game, it would only be used in certain games, in the most unusual and rare situations.

 

[Honor]

Does anyone think it's odd that Kael is suspicuously absent from massive balance discussions that divide the community?

I think he's secretly superman.

Oh, I'm sure he's watching us. Big Brother never sleeps.

 

[WarKirby]

Oh, I'm sure he's watching us. Big Brother never sleeps.

Well, watching is boring. I'm pretty sure my "mega units" thread never got a kael response.

Edit: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=308433

6 pages and it never did. DisappointingThis is why I've stopped posting threads here. Kael either doesn't notice, or doesn't care. Vehem, Tarquelne, and Xienwolf seem to care much more, so I post stuff in the FF forum now.


I post a big thread here about mega units, and I get some nice argument and discussion argument from the community, nothing from developers.

I post a thread abouit ranged attacks in FF forum, I get into an indepth discussion with vehem, and things are actually changed. Now ranged attack damage is more scaled to unit strength. now there's a whole new promotion line dedicated to it. It would be arrogant to say I caused this. I just say what I see. I see a problem with the FF system Next patch, it's changed to be more like I preferred. That says something to me.. It's extemely dificult to honestly say we're listened to here in FFH forum.

Kael seems to have fulfilled his vision for FFH, and it's now officially in "feature lock", so I feel I've missed the gun, and he doesn't care about any farther additions. What to do, but look elsewhere?

you can see from occasional responses here and there that he's still reading this forum. but he doesn't seem to respond to "big idea" threads at all. I feel kael has abandoned accepting creative input here, and only cares about bugfixing now,

 

[PotatoOverdose]

Does anyone think it's odd that Kael is suspicuously absent from massive balance discussions that divide the community?

I think he's secretly superman.

It isn't a massive balance discussion though. It is some minor feature that will only affect one civ (It shouldn't have any bearing on the chirp, they were never underground/mountain dwarves in the first place, they were the open-skyers or some such according to their pedia entry) and one map script that comes with the mod. On top of that, said mapscript (erebus) tends to put said civ (the khazad) in bad starting locations in the first place, and so more low yield tiles won't help them on average. So the dev team would have expended time (a cost) for a feature that will be used very rarely (one civ, one mapscript packed with the mod), and only as a fallback in the absence of good workable tiles (assuming you don't turn peaks into super tiles which will never happen for obvious balance reasons).

So to some up:
Dev team expends time in exchange for feature that will almost never be used by +98% of the time (Few play the Khazad and the erebus map script exclusively). Honestly, the gains don't justify the cost in time. I would much rather the devs work on something that would benefit the mod and the community as a whole, like a better AI, maybe one that can use spells effectively, etc.

Its not a massive balance discussion. Its some minor tweak that does nothing for all but a few individuals (and said individuals can tweak it themselves quite easily).

I post a big thread here about mega units, and I get some nice argument and discussion argument from the community, nothing from developers.

You do realize that if devs for any software, be it a business package, a videogame, or a mod actually acted on all of the suggestions they get from their userbase, they would never be able to get anywhere because of conflicting suggestions and the sheer mass of suggestions thereof. Take yourself as an example. You posted several "massive" threads. Imagine if all ffh players did the same. If the devs took the time to address each and every single one, they would never have any time to actually do any modding. And keep in mind that the devs do what they do for free, so they don't even have a distributor-consumer relationship with you, they simply make out of their own good motivations, and you simply take out of your desire for entertainment. This is an open mod, if you don't like something, change it. I didn't like the fact that there's no espionage, so I started working on an espionage modmod for my own use. I might release it one day. You can do the same with your mega-units ideas, your mountain tiles, and any other ideas you have. Make a modmod, release it, and see if it is popular. If it is, it might even get included in the main mod, or it might not but people that do like it will use it.

It is very easy to come up with a plethora of ideas and suggestions. Coding them is another matter. Try the latter a bit before engaging in too much of the former.

 

[jwin]

Kael pretty much came right out and said that things were finished, with mostly only bugs and balance issues to work out, then AI issues. He has spent several years getting the project to this point, and now wants to perfect it and then let the mod-modders make their changes.

If he keeps on making major changes, they will never finish perfecting the mod.

In FF, what they are looking to do is make bug changes, so of course they are getting more input from the community.

Kael also hasn't updated the future patch list since you started this thread, and has posted only a few posts since then. Maybe he, I don't know, working or enjoying his life and hasn't had the time to read through these six pages about mountain yields.

Sorry if I sound a bit snarky, but it just rub me in a bad way when people complain about a development team that has put in as much time as they have, expecting no more reward than knowing people are enjoying their work, and maybe the occassional thank you.

 

[WarKirby]

It isn't a massive balance discussion though. It is some minor feature that will only affect one civ =, and only as a fallback in the absence of good workable tiles (assuming you don't turn peaks into super tiles which will never happen for obvious balance reasons).

You do realize that if devs for any software, be it a business package, a videogame, or a mod actually acted on all of the suggestions they get from their userbase, they would never be able to get anywhere because of conflicting suggestions and the sheer mass of suggestions thereof. Take yourself as an example. You posted several "massive" threads. Imagine if all ffh players did the same. If the devs took the time to address each and every single one, they would never have any time to actually do any modding. This is an open mod, if you don't like something, change it. I didn't like the fact that theirs no espionage, so I started working on an espionage modmod for my own use. I might release it one day. You can do the same with your mega-units ideas, your mountain tiles, and any other ideas you have. Make a modmod, release it, and see if it is popular. If it is, it might even get included in the main mod, or it might not but people that do like it will use it.

It is very easy to come up with a plethora of ideas and suggestions. Coding them is another matter. Try the latter a bit before engaging in too much of the former.

Do you think it would be so much to just say

"

we don't think this would be worth the time it would take to do it " ?

I have a job too, as do most people. I can still find time to read evey single post on this forum surely kael could at least find the time to reaad the OP of each thread if he cared about it.. judging by the occasional replies he makes, I am guessing he reads most of the threads, but only responds to a select few.
the FF team hasn't had any problem doing that so far. Just look at my last thread there about haunted lands.

Rejection of your idea is disapponting, certainly. but being ignored is INFINITELY moreso. if your idea is rejected, at least you can know someeone read it. they can refine sugguestions, on how to improtve it, etc. FF team doesn't just implement all my ideas because I say so. but some things have changed, after discussion with developers.

That just doesn't seem to happen here. Kael appearances are like 4 leaf clovers. rare, and random. talking to anyone who has the ability to change things is almost impossible this forum. Over in FF, Vehem seems to get around to responding to all my threads eventually, and I often have nice balance discussions with him. Xienwolf tells us the technical side of whether things are possible.

I feel FF engages the community much more than FFH, which is a main reason why I've switched.

if you're just gnored, how does someone improve on something they never glanced at in the first place.

So to some up:
Dev team expends time in exchange for feature that will almost never be used by +98% of the time (Few play the Khazad and the erebus map script exclusively). Honestly, the gains don't justify the cost in time. I would much rather the devs work on something that would benefit the mod and the community as a whole, like a better AI, maybe one that can use spells effectively, etc.

Its not a massive balance discussion. Its some minor tweak that does nothing for all but a few individuals (and said individuals can tweak it themselves quite easily).

You do realize that if devs for any software, be it a business package, a videogame, or a mod actually acted on all of the suggestions they get from their userbase, they would never be able to get anywhere because of conflicting suggestions and the sheer mass of suggestions thereof

FF manages this quite well. Of course, implementing all user ideas is not possible. a developer has to be able to "stand up to" the users. Explain why particular choices were made. Or why a certain idea is horrible (maybe in more polite words...)

I understand the pressure this brings. I do it too in my job. I appreciate the FF team for doing things like this. For engaging users where FFH ignores them. For implementing good suggestions where kael seems to no longer care.

I work in the virtual world of Second Life, making stuff for an ever hungry group of consumers, who are always wanting things I am uncertain about making, like ki attacks that send the victim flying. I worry about push effects being annoying and being used against unwilling victims. Every day I have to explain my decisions to not include these features, where my competitors do. I appreciate that FF team is willing to devote the same time and resources, to explaining their decisions and such,

I don't blame kael for losing interest in such a long-term project. All I ask is that he make it clear if he's not interested, and not allow users to continue posting in futility hoping their ideas will be in the next ffh version. Maybe it would be a good idea to have some sticky

"New concepts will not be added to FFH. Stop posting ideas"

 

[Iceciro]

Gotta stop ya WarKirby - you ask that he make it clear he's not interested and allow people to hope for ideas being added.

That's kinda what feature-lock means. That's why we have FF - Kael's said that he's done aside from minor balance changes, FF isn't done yet so big projects go over there. When FF is done maybe someone else will take the helm from them, and that's where you'll go for changes.

I think this thread would have gone better in the FF forums, because they aren't in feature lock there

If you post up a message at your shop saying "Color changes only - meshing work done" (or whatever the secondlife equivilant is) and a bunch of people leave you messages about meshing something up, does it fall to you to repeat yourself?

 

[WarKirby]

Gotta stop ya WarKirby - you ask that he make it clear he's not interested and allow people to hope for ideas being added.

That's kinda what feature-lock means. That's why we have FF - Kael's said that he's done aside from minor balance changes, FF isn't done yet so big projects go over there. When FF is done maybe someone else will take the helm from them, and that's where you'll go for changes.

I think this thread would have gone better in the FF forums, because they aren't in feature lock there

If you post up a message at your shop saying "Color changes only - meshing work done" (or whatever the secondlife equivilant is) and a bunch of people leave you messages about meshing something up, does it fall to you to repeat yourself?

as far as Second Life goes, if someone wishes new mesh work done on a product, I would simply quote them price. they can have what they want if they;re willing to mapy me for the time it tktes to dot, it, and many do . I would certainly not mind paying a bit to modders, either. like the average white male, I have more money than I immmediately need, and would not mind allocating some of it to an entertainment purpose like a game mod. Kael has insisted in the past that money go to unicef. How does the FF team feeel about donations ?

I think you're right, perhaphs it would be better to post this in FF forums. I posted my thread about ljosalfar archers there recently too, even though it was a problem with base FFH, and not with FF, because I felt things were more likely to be changed there, than here. I would have posted this thread there too, instead of here if I were the poster. This is not my thread, or course. Started by Hawkwood, not by me, so it is not my place to repost it.

 

[Iceciro]

Ah, point taken on that front then.

But yeah, I think anyone looking for more major features needs to look for a modmod or code it themselves. Tweaking is different, but I think adding yeilds to an impassable tile is a FF change, not a FFH tweak!

Not trying to ruffle any feathers, just giving a counter-point to your point. I downloaded that mod to have a look at the mountain-code myself - that's probabaly the best way to handle it from your point of view.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Since I got namedropped in here I feel the need to point out that I don't really care whether or not these ideas make it in, they wouldn't really change the game for me. It's not the same as the hill buffs for Khazad I always argue strongly against. Hills are powerful, useful terrain for all civs, and giving any one civ a bonus yield in hills would be quite unbalancing. Particularly for me, because the Khazad are already the civ I'm best with, so that idea looks to me like giving Fedor Emelianenko free steroids that only he's legally allowed to use for some arbitrary reason.

Peaks blow. If you gave them little bonuses for earth 3/arete/being the khazad they'd blow somewhat less. You'd still work everything else first; they'd be much like desert hills in BtS. The lore arguments which I always bring up and which got repeated in here still apply, but I'm one of those guys who sees that as the less important side of adding features.

Khazad bonus to hills adds a huge balance issure, Khazad bonus to peaks does not.

 

[Ranos]

@ Warkirby

Go hut down the big thread on the issue of the change to Enraged. That thread went on for at least a week if not two with numerous pages before Kael responded. That is a common practice among people who are in charge of a large group of people throwing out all kinds of ideas. Watch the discussion, moderate it if it's your job and make sure things don't get out of hand. At some point, when a few good suggestions have been thrown out, jump in with a suggestion that puts them all together in a workable solution.

With a thread that has grown this fast (I just had to read more than three pages to get caught up since yesterday) I guarantee that Kael is reading and maybe even discussing it with the team in their private forum. It could be another day or maybe another week, but I'd be willing to bet that at some point Kael will make a post stating his feeling on this suggested change.

Be patient and give it some time. I'd also suggest dropping the topic of Kael not responding because A) it sounds whiney and many people find that annoying and B) it is off topic and could get this thread closed.

@ Grey Fox and PotatoOverdose

You both have talked about it being a change for one or two civs and that it would take time. You say it would make the one civ overpowered because it can use this terrain that others can't.

Are you both against the similar unique features of the Malakim and Illians, both who are able to use useless terrain? (Yes other civs can move through and build roads and forts on these terrains but I'm talking from a yeild perspective here) Are you against the fact that Elves and Lanun can improve terrain in ways others can't?

If allowing Dwarves to get 2-3 extra hammers from Peaks would make them overpowered, doesn't that mean the other above civs are overpowered?

Yes, the majority of the reason for adding this feature is for the Lore. Is that the best of reasons? Probably not. But to argue against it for that alone makes no sense. The civs I mentioned above have the features they have because of lore. This mod is designed around lore, not around the playability and balance. both of those are important and some lore had to be thrown out because of that, but don't argue that adding something for the lore alone is wrong.

Even with the mod being in the feature-lock stage, new features have been added and others have been modified. If there is a good enough reason to do it, the team will probably do it.

I'm still not decided whether I want to see this added or not. On the one hand, it would be cool and it would add some extra playability for the dwarves. On the other hand, it is only a minor addition and the team probably has better things to do. I'll really have to think about it before I can make some good arguements in favor, or against, adding this feature.

 

[Honor]

I thought we were talking about modmodding new features all along.