1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Moving to Emperor

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by Ceoladir, Jun 25, 2010.

  1. ThinkTank

    ThinkTank RL Addict

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    1,085
    Location:
    An inaccessible possible world
    Correct. Apparently the growth to 7, the settler production and associated reduction in size happen earlier in the IBT than the granary emptying for a size 7 city. I think Bartleby once had a post describing the exact sequence of events during the IBT but I cannot find it right now, will post a link if I do.
     
  2. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2007
    Messages:
    5,687
    Location:
    Heidelberg
    It may look like the research time is the same (50 turns in both cases), but the absolute number of beakers you accumulate over these 10 turns is of course higher, if you run 100% from the start, so the tech will in fact finish faster, once you have enough population to make enough beakers to finish the tech in under 50 turns.

    Example: in this setup (Emperor, Standard, 7 opponents) Writing is 240 beakers. If you start at 10%, so that exactly 1 bpt is put into the box, it'll take 50 turns and you actually save 190 beakers. If you start at 100%, all 4 bpt will go into the box. Now 240/4 = 60, so it will still finish in 50 turns, if you can't get the beaker rate up soon. (In which case it would be a waste: why collect 2x50 = 200 beakers, if you can get the same for 50 beakers...)
    But if you decide to do it in under 50, then it makes sense to go 100%. Let's say for the first 10 turns you make 4 bpt. Then there are only 200 beakers remaining. Whereas if you go 10% for the first 10 turns, you still have 230 beakers left and it will be much harder to make that in under 40 turns.

    In general I think 38 turns instead of 50 is worth the extra gold invested. On Emperor these 12 turns may mean the difference between winning or loosing the race to Philosophy. However, on a large or huge map (or on Demigod/Deity), the price for Writing may be so high, that researching it full speed still takes 45 or 46 turns. In that case I would do it at 10% for 50 turns and save a big bag of gold during that time...
    This gold will then either allow good tech trading opportunities or it will allow you to do deficit research for the next tech, catching up the lost turns that way.
    (For an example of the trading approach see the test game attached to the following thread: Ideas for SGOTM15 -- post #28
    This was a Deity game with 16 opponents, so I did lone scientist for Writing. And despite the fact that I researched only 3 techs myself up to 1000BC, I had all ancient age techs (except for the optionals) and already Feudalism + Engineering at 1000BC. The extra cash and the many early contacts (ultra-early curraghs were key in that game!) allowed the perfect "tech broker" strategy.
    A reference .sav from 1000BC is attached to post #30.)

    Another key for fast early research is: you need to use scientists, whenever there is food-overrun in one of your towns. (For agricultural civs, who often have +3 fpt in many towns, this is often the case: in 3 turns you collect 9 food, and then you can take one citizen off of a 2-food tile, and the +1 food is still enough for growth next turns. Of course you sometimes need to balance this against the lost shield.) And in the next to last turn of a tech I often check, whether 2-3 scientists would shave a turn off.

    Lanzelot
     
  3. ThinkTank

    ThinkTank RL Addict

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    1,085
    Location:
    An inaccessible possible world
    Clear, thanks! I probably have been playing to many huge and super huge maps lately ... where there is no way to get writing under 50 so I go for the min run and trading approach.
     
  4. Ceoladir

    Ceoladir Come Fly With Me

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2009
    Messages:
    8,460
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Michigan
    Well, I never got around to finishing this game, since I have been civless for a while. However, I started this game and I feel I am starting to get back into the swing of things. I have 2 saves here, one of where I currently am and another about halfway in between. Please tell me if I am improving!

    Also, I am aware that I failed techwise. I think I made the same mistake as the OP game, which is the fact that I didn't go for Alphabet and instead went for BW and WC. Isn't there a War Academy article about predicting what the AI will research and adjusting you're research accordingly?

    (4000 BC save will be up shortly)
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2008
    Messages:
    4,842
    Location:
    Ohio
    I'd guess you mean DaveMcW's article.
     
  6. Ceoladir

    Ceoladir Come Fly With Me

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2009
    Messages:
    8,460
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Michigan
    I also played some more and also have a save from I got into Republic and declared war on Ragnar on the same turn, and where I am now.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Ceoladir

    Ceoladir Come Fly With Me

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2009
    Messages:
    8,460
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Michigan
    :bump:

    Anybody gonna respond? :(
     
  8. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,540
    Location:
    Medford, MA
    I took a look at the 210 BC save (using civ assist, not the game itself)

    I'm not sure what your strategy is. On the one hand, you have clearly warred with scandanavia, cause you have a couple of their cities, plus a decent force of MW plus some rax.

    You are building more rax, but in the cities you already have raxes in, you are building markets... but you only have 2 luxuries, so the markets won't help all that much as of yet. You have 2 MW in production, 1 in a city without a rax.

    You have 18 cities and 21 workers and have 1 settler in production.


    I think I would do one of two things:

    1) Stop the mil build up and go completely infra/settlers/workers
    2) stop the markets and build more MW and go back to war.

    With Iroquois, i would do the latter. I assume part of the reason you are stopping is cause you are seeing some pikes? if so, I think it's a bad reason to stop. I think you should just keep going, maybe build some cats for bombardment on cities with walls and/or on hills that have pikes. In my opinion, MW are better than Knights anyway (they cost less than 1/2 what a knight does - they die easier when counterattacked, but bring along a few spears and you shouldn 't lose many MW.
     
  9. Lord Emsworth

    Lord Emsworth Emperor

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,951
    Location:
    On a shipchain
    What is the reason for peace? The Scandinavian resistance is broken and the last few cities could have easily been captured and kept.
     
  10. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    13,701
    Location:
    Oviedo, Fl
    The cost is 240 as you say on std map. On huge it is 400, so no point in going 100% with one town. Small point, but you cannot drop to 10% at the time where you are 1 town doing writing. Min is 20% at that stage.
     
  11. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    13,701
    Location:
    Oviedo, Fl
    Does not Hiawatha start with Alphabet? Do you mean Writing?
     
  12. Ceoladir

    Ceoladir Come Fly With Me

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2009
    Messages:
    8,460
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Michigan
    I mean writing. The reason for peace was techs and to regroup. I was starting to fall behind. I am at about 620AD and am attaching a current save. I got bored waiting for a response from y'all so I kept playing. Aztecs just declared on Vikings and will probably take their only city left. They also steamrolled Mongolia. I have a trashed rep. :( I could use some help. I also just make peace with the Aztecs several turns ago since I have never seen 15 unit stacks before and by the time I could take one out, another was at my borders. I am building markets for a future palace jump to New Salamanca since I overcrowded my original core and nothing can get to size 7 to help with unit support. I believe their are 4 rivers in old Scandinavia. I could post more but I haven't played today and don't want to get my facts wrong.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    13,701
    Location:
    Oviedo, Fl
    Well I had not played C3C in some time as I was playing V. So I was not watching the forum that close. Here is some feedback FWIIW:

    Have to start somewhere, so how many in game? Normal 8, ok how many do we know? Three and all the landmass exposed.
    Do we have any boats out looking for the rest? No!

    What is the deal with techs? Well we are working on the last tech for the AA. How does that compare to the other we know? They have Monarchy and Construction and are in the Middle Ages now. Do we have any techs that any known nation is lacking? Yes, Lit. Why not trade it, since the other two nations have it already. Note that no one has started the GLB. Well if we decide to go for GLB do not trade it.

    How do we stand on maybe building it? Not too good as we have our top city with 13 net shields, second with 13 as well (it has 5 lost to corruption) and the capitol is 11. Even with the GA and some shields in the box we can only do it in 28 turns. So we can figure that ending the GA and improving the city would let us get it in 28 anyway. The question becomes, is 400 shields a good deal and can we actually get it?

    The answer the second, I cannot say as I did not play to this point, but probably it can be done, but not a lock. We can expect a switch from the failing nations on HG. The thing is will they switch to Sun Tzu or GLB? The first part is yes IMO. Why, because you would probably gain about 14,000 beakers for 400 shields.

    You almost have to try as you can make about 80 beakers during the GA and that is not going to be enough. So on the GLB point, I would switch the settler in Sal to GLB and add in 2 workers as soon as they finish their current task. Later may add a third and still later consider taking a tile from Niag.

    Lets mention the placement a bit. Things broke down a tad, when you placed Allegheny and then Catt. Alle should have been where Catt is, well actually right between them. Then Catt goes where Mauch is to cut off access. It does not do that, but it starts the block. You then have no reason to put a town where Tona sits. No reason to have Alle and Catt on top of each other.

    I then try to put one down in the razed spot next to Chon. Now I grant you I do not know what was going on at that point, but most likely I would have gone to war to get those spots. I have to have them and attempt to block access across the river by Chon. Then I can back fill at a leisurely pace and try to grab land from the river out.

    I am guessing that you dropped Alle to grab the horses. If that is true, let me give you 20 lashes with a wet noodle now. I preach that you do not place towns out of position just to get a resource or a lux, that you are going to get anyway. It is a different story when looking at the sole Iron. Later resource like coal and salt you can get out of alignment as the towns are now far from the core.

    THe horses were never going to be anyone elses, so no need to mess up a couple of core towns. I am fine with cramping in tundra towns at some point.

    I also want to suggest that you do not run workers as loners after the first, say 6. At least not in the core, get them in gangs to get jobs done faster. I am fine with new workers popping out far away working on a road to the empire, but joint them as soon as you can.

    I will ignore the tech selections as I have no idea what was researched, popped, traded for or whatever means used to aquire. The main thing to me would have been to get galleys out to try to make contacts. The higher the level the more importantit is to get contact ahead of your land mates.

    War, I do not know who you fought with recently, but I dislike seeing lots of open spaces being created by razing towns. You need to have a settler in place to claim much of the land or you will soon find others will. Better to keep those towns, if you cannot settle them. Even if it is only for a few turns while you hustle a settler up there.

    If you had no one else on the land, fine you have time to fill. Right now you are not going to be able to do it without contention.

    Units, at emperor a few spears are a good thing, unless you are using swords. You are using MW, so spears are required. Not a lot, but enought to cover frontline towns and 1 good stack. The stack can attack and retreat to trailing spears. Wait not really any stack?

    Well that ties into the way things are right now on the front. All sorts of MW are spread around. The shotgun attack caused that and the wide open spaces now available.

    Yes it did get the towns down sooner, but not sure that would be my goal. I would rather have most grouped and a few spears not far behind and a settler with the spears or coming after them. You can replace those towns in that fashion and hold all the land or most of it. Now you are going to have to rely on the AI not sending out combos to grab some.

    No value in the warrior in that town under Repiblic, go ahead and disband it. Spears are worthless in the rear as they perform no MP duty , can't attack and probably not defend either.

    Towns and what they are doing and what they have done.

    Tyen:
    currently making an MW with no barracks. I would stop that and put the lone pop on as a taxman as you are not researching anyway. The GA does this place no real good, except to make things you cannot afford. Wealth here.

    Kahn:
    Same, but it has gotten to size two and makes more shields. I put to wealth, make one pop a taxman.

    Caugh:
    Now you have some green tiles here. The problem is that they are better used by Niagra. I would not want to use these towns to build things that I cannot afford to pay maint on. I would switch to worker, then shut it down, like the other two. Its green tiles can go to other towns like Niag and Centralia. Let these burgs give you gold or beakers and no structures to pay for or units to maintain.

    One problem is you are AG so they will try to grow from the center tile. Pop out a worker as you need them from these place and starve them back down.

    Oka:
    Well you are stuck waiting to grow for the worker, so I would do that and then shut it down as well.

    Centralia:
    Problem child in that is can get tiles, but is corrupt. After the GA it will hardly be making any net shields, so I would be inclined to use it to make settlers. Switch the barracks to either a settler, cat or you could even go for a market as it would pay for itself.

    Allegheny:
    You should have long ago popped a settler out of here and abandoned it. I would do that now and take the hit. Maybe get two settlers then do it.

    St Regis:
    Another town killing its neighbors. I may look at trying to use it for a camp for while longer, then abandon it. It could be set up to make settlers and workers. Not at a fast pace, but you do not need them other than right now at a fast pace. You may be able to use it to camp troops by giving it the hill and improving it from Alle location, once its gone.

    You need to have two places to get troops out of for now as you have plenty for the time being. You can determine what to do about markets in a few place once you figure out the troop production. Markets are not going to help lux right now and only give a small return in most towns after the GA cuts the income way down.

    Still it is not a bad thing, if you have no pressing items.

    All of this presumes that you are not interested in gong back to war right away. You have an advantage with the MW for a short time. Soon more spears will be replaced by pikes and things will be harder. If you get the GLB and it should be no problem, you will be able to upgrade to knights and rock again. By then any WW will be gone.

    Move MW's to the tiles by the lake next to Tron to prevent any combos from walking into the open land. You probably will have to cover the tiles in your front towns or they will trample into your lands to get there.
     
  14. Ceoladir

    Ceoladir Come Fly With Me

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2009
    Messages:
    8,460
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Michigan
    What save are you looking at?
     
  15. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    13,701
    Location:
    Oviedo, Fl
    A quick peek at the latest save. It is not written in stone that you must always build stuff in all towns at all times. There is no value in making a 100 turn market in a 100% corrupt frontline town.

    There is no value in making spears in 620AD, especially in a town with no barracks. It is a crime in my book to do it as a Republic form of government.

    Why would you not make a temple in Hillville and get a road on those gems?

    Still no search for all those missing nations? I lnow you do not have Astro or Mag. I am sure I would have found a way to get to them by 600AD.

    You make about 200 beakers with 44 towns, too many troops, too few scientist. Too many towns that are not cities.
     
  16. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    13,701
    Location:
    Oviedo, Fl
    The 210BC, it was the latest one at the time. Post #26.
     
  17. Ceoladir

    Ceoladir Come Fly With Me

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2009
    Messages:
    8,460
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Michigan
    I do have the Lighthouse. Took it from Scandinavia.

    EDIT: Do you think I should restart this game?
     
  18. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    13,701
    Location:
    Oviedo, Fl
    No, you are fine. I am just given you another way of evaluating your situations.
     
  19. Ceoladir

    Ceoladir Come Fly With Me

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2009
    Messages:
    8,460
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Michigan
    Do you think it is too late to adjust the core cities like you are talking about, and what would be you're opinion on moving my Capital to New Salamanca.
     
  20. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    13,701
    Location:
    Oviedo, Fl
    I have not bothered moving my capitol since vanilla/ptw days. I am not saying it is always bad, but you need a leader. In C3C leaders mean armies and armies are king. In prior versions the FP could be used to replace the capitol to a large degree. The next thing is look at the towns around the new proposed site.

    They are all without any infrastructure I would guess. What you would then have? The old core with some buld up, or it should have had by now, that is now mostly corrupt. A new core that has little production or happy boosters.

    I would just go to my old core and clean things up a bit. Abandon a town or two. Switch to things that make sense or not nothing in some places. It is never a bad idea to attempt to maximize the value of your empire.

    Make the new lands farms and get what you can from them and not spend more on them or incur more maint cost form them.
     

Share This Page